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M.Sjostrom

Re: What is Royalty ??

Legg inn av M.Sjostrom » 18. desember 2007 kl. 9.41

....Imperial families... of Japan (descended.. from the
Sun Goddess
stretch for them to be including the royal family of
Afghanistan, who
not too many generations ago originated from Payinda
Khan, a mountain
bandit chieftain.

"I'm sure you're aware that the claim of the Ethiopian
house to descend
from Solomon is spurious.

Will johnson"


What would then be a correct term to attribute to the
claim that the imperial family of Japan descends from
sun goddess?
'ridiculous', or just 'mythical'

As far as is historically known, the imperial line of
Japan (assuming there is no break due to adultery or
whatnot) descends from a Japanese chieftain of Koshi
(Keitai sumeramikoto, male-line ancestor) who lived
1500 years ago, and through his consort(s) (at least,
'imperial' princess Tashiraga nyoo no Ninken okimi of
Yamato) and possibly also his daughter(s)-in-law
(Tachibana), from attested Japanese local kings of
Yamato living in 400s. And, that's about it. No
historically attested sun goddess giving birth to a
historically attested imperial ancestor.


Of course the royal family of Afghanistan should be
listed in that sort of work of reference having
monarchical families presented. What's the actual
trouble.
As they originated from Payinda Khan, a mountain
bandit chieftain, they fit perfectly to the company of
other descendants of other bandit chieftains, in other
words, aristocracy and royalty.
Where does one think late medieval magnates and early
medieval kings came from and how they built their
position, if not establishing a (usually fortified)
base and collecting more or less violently payments
from peasants and passengers.




____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

M.Sjostrom

Re: DNA

Legg inn av M.Sjostrom » 18. desember 2007 kl. 23.27

a few additions:


Matriline from Louise de Mareuil de Villebois:
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?pers ... erations=6


Matriline from Jeanne de Voudray
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?pers ... erations=6


Examples of more 'regional' matrilines:

Matriline from Isabeau Beatrix de Bourgogne, from

Portugal:
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?pers ... erations=6


Matriline from Helene von Schweinichen:
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?pers ... erations=6





____________________________________________________________________________________
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Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch ... y=shopping

Gjest

Re: The problem with Elizabeth Killigrew

Legg inn av Gjest » 18. desember 2007 kl. 23.55

Dear Will, Michael and others,
Is it impossible that Sir
Henry Killigrew had more than one daughter named Elizabeth ?
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA



**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
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Gjest

Re: What is Royalty ??

Legg inn av Gjest » 19. desember 2007 kl. 3.30

On Dec 18, 12:37 am, "M.Sjostrom" <[email protected]> wrote:
...Imperial families... of Japan (descended.. from the
Sun Goddess

stretch for them to be including the royal family of
Afghanistan, who
not too many generations ago originated from Payinda
Khan, a mountain
bandit chieftain.

"I'm sure you're aware that the claim of the Ethiopian
house to descend
from Solomon is spurious.

Will johnson"

What would then be a correct term to attribute to the
claim that the imperial family of Japan descends from
sun goddess?
'ridiculous', or just 'mythical'

As far as is historically known, the imperial line of
Japan (assuming there is no break due to adultery or
whatnot) descends from a Japanese chieftain of Koshi
(Keitai sumeramikoto, male-line ancestor) who lived
1500 years ago, and through his consort(s) (at least,
'imperial' princess Tashiraga nyoo no Ninken okimi of
Yamato) and possibly also his daughter(s)-in-law
(Tachibana), from attested Japanese local kings of
Yamato living in 400s. And, that's about it. No
historically attested sun goddess giving birth to a
historically attested imperial ancestor.

Of course the royal family of Afghanistan should be
listed in that sort of work of reference having
monarchical families presented. What's the actual
trouble.
As they originated from Payinda Khan, a mountain
bandit chieftain, they fit perfectly to the company of
other descendants of other bandit chieftains, in other
words, aristocracy and royalty.
Where does one think late medieval magnates and early
medieval kings came from and how they built their
position, if not establishing a (usually fortified)
base and collecting more or less violently payments
from peasants and passengers.

_

This is what makes this stuff so interesting. One wonders if a court
genealogist was given the assignment to "find" a lineage justifying
the sovereignty (since "conquest" is so, well, physical...), or if it
was a "revelation" from someone wishing to ingratiate himself, or
"manifest destiny" in which the fact of conquest proves the divine
right to rule with accompanying divine lineage, or if an actual
individual carried such a name in the dim past who was later raised to
godhood when a descendant gained the throne, or....And why choose, for
example, a sun goddess or a thunder god or whoever - what was the
cultural interpretation behind such choices? Fascinating stuff - so
long as it is never confused with actual genealogy. Also it should be
borne in mind that every society has its "sacred" history alongside
its "day-to-day" history, usually intertwined with it at relevant
points. A "sacred" history does not have to be scientific; it may be
full of metaphors and poetry and drama.
Oh don't get me started. Best, Bronwen

Gjest

Re: What is Royalty ??

Legg inn av Gjest » 19. desember 2007 kl. 3.30

On Dec 18, 12:37 am, "M.Sjostrom" <[email protected]> wrote:
...Imperial families... of Japan (descended.. from the
Sun Goddess

stretch for them to be including the royal family of
Afghanistan, who
not too many generations ago originated from Payinda
Khan, a mountain
bandit chieftain.

"I'm sure you're aware that the claim of the Ethiopian
house to descend
from Solomon is spurious.

Will johnson"

What would then be a correct term to attribute to the
claim that the imperial family of Japan descends from
sun goddess?
'ridiculous', or just 'mythical'

As far as is historically known, the imperial line of
Japan (assuming there is no break due to adultery or
whatnot) descends from a Japanese chieftain of Koshi
(Keitai sumeramikoto, male-line ancestor) who lived
1500 years ago, and through his consort(s) (at least,
'imperial' princess Tashiraga nyoo no Ninken okimi of
Yamato) and possibly also his daughter(s)-in-law
(Tachibana), from attested Japanese local kings of
Yamato living in 400s. And, that's about it. No
historically attested sun goddess giving birth to a
historically attested imperial ancestor.

Of course the royal family of Afghanistan should be
listed in that sort of work of reference having
monarchical families presented. What's the actual
trouble.
As they originated from Payinda Khan, a mountain
bandit chieftain, they fit perfectly to the company of
other descendants of other bandit chieftains, in other
words, aristocracy and royalty.
Where does one think late medieval magnates and early
medieval kings came from and how they built their
position, if not establishing a (usually fortified)
base and collecting more or less violently payments
from peasants and passengers.

_

This is what makes this stuff so interesting. One wonders if a court
genealogist was given the assignment to "find" a lineage justifying
the sovereignty (since "conquest" is so, well, physical...), or if it
was a "revelation" from someone wishing to ingratiate himself, or
"manifest destiny" in which the fact of conquest proves the divine
right to rule with accompanying divine lineage, or if an actual
individual carried such a name in the dim past who was later raised to
godhood when a descendant gained the throne, or....And why choose, for
example, a sun goddess or a thunder god or whoever - what was the
cultural interpretation behind such choices? Fascinating stuff - so
long as it is never confused with actual genealogy. Also it should be
borne in mind that every society has its "sacred" history alongside
its "day-to-day" history, usually intertwined with it at relevant
points. A "sacred" history does not have to be scientific; it may be
full of metaphors and poetry and drama.
Oh don't get me started. Best, Bronwen

Gjest

Re: What is Royalty ??

Legg inn av Gjest » 19. desember 2007 kl. 3.30

On Dec 18, 12:37 am, "M.Sjostrom" <[email protected]> wrote:
...Imperial families... of Japan (descended.. from the
Sun Goddess

stretch for them to be including the royal family of
Afghanistan, who
not too many generations ago originated from Payinda
Khan, a mountain
bandit chieftain.

"I'm sure you're aware that the claim of the Ethiopian
house to descend
from Solomon is spurious.

Will johnson"

What would then be a correct term to attribute to the
claim that the imperial family of Japan descends from
sun goddess?
'ridiculous', or just 'mythical'

As far as is historically known, the imperial line of
Japan (assuming there is no break due to adultery or
whatnot) descends from a Japanese chieftain of Koshi
(Keitai sumeramikoto, male-line ancestor) who lived
1500 years ago, and through his consort(s) (at least,
'imperial' princess Tashiraga nyoo no Ninken okimi of
Yamato) and possibly also his daughter(s)-in-law
(Tachibana), from attested Japanese local kings of
Yamato living in 400s. And, that's about it. No
historically attested sun goddess giving birth to a
historically attested imperial ancestor.

Of course the royal family of Afghanistan should be
listed in that sort of work of reference having
monarchical families presented. What's the actual
trouble.
As they originated from Payinda Khan, a mountain
bandit chieftain, they fit perfectly to the company of
other descendants of other bandit chieftains, in other
words, aristocracy and royalty.
Where does one think late medieval magnates and early
medieval kings came from and how they built their
position, if not establishing a (usually fortified)
base and collecting more or less violently payments
from peasants and passengers.

_

This is what makes this stuff so interesting. One wonders if a court
genealogist was given the assignment to "find" a lineage justifying
the sovereignty (since "conquest" is so, well, physical...), or if it
was a "revelation" from someone wishing to ingratiate himself, or
"manifest destiny" in which the fact of conquest proves the divine
right to rule with accompanying divine lineage, or if an actual
individual carried such a name in the dim past who was later raised to
godhood when a descendant gained the throne, or....And why choose, for
example, a sun goddess or a thunder god or whoever - what was the
cultural interpretation behind such choices? Fascinating stuff - so
long as it is never confused with actual genealogy. Also it should be
borne in mind that every society has its "sacred" history alongside
its "day-to-day" history, usually intertwined with it at relevant
points. A "sacred" history does not have to be scientific; it may be
full of metaphors and poetry and drama.
Oh don't get me started. Best, Bronwen

Gjest

Re: What is Royalty ??

Legg inn av Gjest » 19. desember 2007 kl. 3.30

On Dec 18, 12:37 am, "M.Sjostrom" <[email protected]> wrote:
...Imperial families... of Japan (descended.. from the
Sun Goddess

stretch for them to be including the royal family of
Afghanistan, who
not too many generations ago originated from Payinda
Khan, a mountain
bandit chieftain.

"I'm sure you're aware that the claim of the Ethiopian
house to descend
from Solomon is spurious.

Will johnson"

What would then be a correct term to attribute to the
claim that the imperial family of Japan descends from
sun goddess?
'ridiculous', or just 'mythical'

As far as is historically known, the imperial line of
Japan (assuming there is no break due to adultery or
whatnot) descends from a Japanese chieftain of Koshi
(Keitai sumeramikoto, male-line ancestor) who lived
1500 years ago, and through his consort(s) (at least,
'imperial' princess Tashiraga nyoo no Ninken okimi of
Yamato) and possibly also his daughter(s)-in-law
(Tachibana), from attested Japanese local kings of
Yamato living in 400s. And, that's about it. No
historically attested sun goddess giving birth to a
historically attested imperial ancestor.

Of course the royal family of Afghanistan should be
listed in that sort of work of reference having
monarchical families presented. What's the actual
trouble.
As they originated from Payinda Khan, a mountain
bandit chieftain, they fit perfectly to the company of
other descendants of other bandit chieftains, in other
words, aristocracy and royalty.
Where does one think late medieval magnates and early
medieval kings came from and how they built their
position, if not establishing a (usually fortified)
base and collecting more or less violently payments
from peasants and passengers.

_

This is what makes this stuff so interesting. One wonders if a court
genealogist was given the assignment to "find" a lineage justifying
the sovereignty (since "conquest" is so, well, physical...), or if it
was a "revelation" from someone wishing to ingratiate himself, or
"manifest destiny" in which the fact of conquest proves the divine
right to rule with accompanying divine lineage, or if an actual
individual carried such a name in the dim past who was later raised to
godhood when a descendant gained the throne, or....And why choose, for
example, a sun goddess or a thunder god or whoever - what was the
cultural interpretation behind such choices? Fascinating stuff - so
long as it is never confused with actual genealogy. Also it should be
borne in mind that every society has its "sacred" history alongside
its "day-to-day" history, usually intertwined with it at relevant
points. A "sacred" history does not have to be scientific; it may be
full of metaphors and poetry and drama.
Oh don't get me started. Best, Bronwen

wjhonson

Re: Killigrew and Kinsky

Legg inn av wjhonson » 19. desember 2007 kl. 5.51

Thanks to Tony Hoskins for that DNB article.
The author notes that after his first wife's death, Sir Henry
Killigrew married secondly to Jael de Peigne on 7 Nov 1590, but does
not appear to know when Jael died merely stating (1617x34). I can
narrow that.

Jael left a Will. Dated 16 Oct 1617 it was proven 28 May 1632 (PCC)

Will Johnson

A. Sharp

Re: What is Royalty ??

Legg inn av A. Sharp » 19. desember 2007 kl. 7.16

Ann:
I have always been tickled by the genealogical predicament of the
ancient Egyptians on these occasions, since Pharaoh was supposed to be the
divine Horus, son of Osiris and -- simultaneously -- son of Re. The awkward
part came when a dynasty failed and the new Pharaoh was, say, a middle-aged
man whose father had already died. How could you name the new Pharaoh's
biological parent, a person who had long since been buried as a commoner,
"Father of the god" when he hadn't had that title in life? The structure of
the classical Egyptian language does not seem to permit reality-based
intrusions on formal references to Pharaoh ....

L.P.H.,

Ann

Bronwen:
This is what makes this stuff so interesting. One wonders if a court
genealogist was given the assignment to "find" a lineage justifying
the sovereignty (since "conquest" is so, well, physical...), or if it
was a "revelation" from someone wishing to ingratiate himself, or
"manifest destiny" in which the fact of conquest proves the divine
right to rule with accompanying divine lineage, or if an actual
individual carried such a name in the dim past who was later raised to
godhood when a descendant gained the throne, or....And why choose, for
example, a sun goddess or a thunder god or whoever - what was the
cultural interpretation behind such choices? Fascinating stuff - so
long as it is never confused with actual genealogy. Also it should be
borne in mind that every society has its "sacred" history alongside
its "day-to-day" history, usually intertwined with it at relevant
points. A "sacred" history does not have to be scientific; it may be
full of metaphors and poetry and drama.

Ralph Hertle

Re: MI5-Persecution: MI5 Have Systematically Destroyed My Li

Legg inn av Ralph Hertle » 20. desember 2007 kl. 5.11

[email protected] :


You have posted on many more news discussion groups on Usenet than
appear on this post.

You have posted on a number of Usenet discussion news groups that I have
posted, and your posts have always been off-topic. For example, M15, of
which we in the United States have no knowledge, is totally unrelated to
any computer command or logical program structure or application of
Bentley Systems Inc.'s MicroStation CAD software. M15 is a total blank
to MicroStation owners or users. Why do you want to speak to members of
the Usenet discussion group, comp.cad.microstation? We don't have a clue
here in the USA.

Do you spend nearly all your time each day posting messages? I don't
have that luxury, and I offer these limited observations to your many
commentaries.

May I suggest these answers to your questions:

1) MicroStation CAD software users know nothing, that is zero, about
your problems, and they have no means of providing the answers that you
need even if they did. They only yak about some technicalities when they
themselves have questions about the MicroStation software. Ignore them,
They can provide no answers for you.

2) The other sites upon which you post messages are similarly unable
to help you by providing answers. It isn't that they don't want to help
you, it is that they merely don't have the knowledge necessary for the
complex ideas involved and that you present to them. Your ideas are more
complex than the average programmer type can deal with.

3) M15 may be you, that is M15 may be a consequence of your own
thoughts insofar as you have elaborated upon the limited number of
factual instances and provided us with written descriptions.

4) I suggest that you begin a program of secrecy and self confidence.
That is of paramount importance to your happiness.

5) Find a professional confidant, say an attorney, lawyer, barrister,
business consultant, psychiatrist, psychologist, mental health
consultant, therapist, physician, doctor of medicine, social worker,
life coach, personal advisor, teacher, or professor and stay in contact
with that person. It is important to stay in contact. In written
promised confidence you may discuss your current problems and explain
them. Follow that professional's guidance over a number of months or
years, and find out what that person has to say with regard to the
issues that you describe. Slowly and without making any breaks, you may
evaluate what that person says. The consultant and friend and you will
begin to discover new realities, and you will begin to construct a new
way to evaluate the events and to evolve a knowledge of new principles
that will work for you to create balance, productivity, and happiness
for you.

6) Start writing a book. Yes. Start writing a book. You are computer
literate, and you are quite well versed in the English language. You can
easily plan or program the content of a written work or book that can be
of interest to a publisher's market. Whether or not it is a work of
fiction, a dramatic transliterated cameo history, simple documentary or
a scholarly work, it is a matter for you to decide. You need to write.
You can convert the rich experience of your life's events into a book or
screenplay. You are the base. No one will ever know who that writer is.
The secret author that only you and your intellectual property lawyer
will know will become a wealthy author. M15 and a great number of other
facts will become grist for your mill. Get rational. Get writing. Become
a productive and possibly wealthy writer. We know that you are
exceedingly intelligent. You can win.

You writings are most interesting, however, here in the USA I have no
specific answers for you.

Email me if you have some questions.

Ralph Hertle

Gjest

Re: Fw: Amauberge la Dangereuse

Legg inn av Gjest » 20. desember 2007 kl. 19.35

In a message dated 12/20/2007 5:55:21 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

Yes Boson II (m. Adenordis or Alienor de Thouars) was Aimery I de
Châtelleraut's father. The Isle Bouchard connection seems to be the
accepted one. Do you know what it's based on?



----------------------------------
Margaret what is your source for making Boson the father of Aimery ?

Thanks
Will Johnson



**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?N ... 0000000004)

Margaret

Re: Fw: Amauberge la Dangereuse

Legg inn av Margaret » 20. desember 2007 kl. 20.15

On Dec 20, 7:28 pm, [email protected] wrote:
In a message dated 12/20/2007 5:55:21 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

[email protected] writes:

Yes Boson II (m. Adenordis or Alienor de Thouars) was Aimery I de
Châtelleraut's father. The Isle Bouchard connection seems to be the
accepted one. Do you know what it's based on?

----------------------------------
Margaret what is your source for making Boson the father of Aimery ?

Thanks
Will Johnson

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?N ... 0000000004)

Hello Will
It's the same Châtellerault article

http://poitou.ifrance.com/chatel.htm

yours
Margaret

gro

Re: DNA

Legg inn av gro » 20. desember 2007 kl. 21.55

On Dec 15, 9:01�pm, Hickory <[email protected]> wrote:
... For
instance, testing any present-day male Romanoff and comparing the
results with those of any present-day male-line representative of the
family which produced the line of German princelings to which the
Kings of Denmark belonged to up until the time of the father of the
present queen, then the age old question of whether the Tsars of
Russia after Catherine II descend from Peter the Great's grandson
Peter III or whether they descend from one of her lovers. To prove
whether they descend from the most likely lover, Saltykov, would
require a modern male line representative of that family (which do,
indeed, exist) participate. Within a couple of weeks, a question which
has occupied the best brains (and worst) among Russian historians for
about 250 years now could be conclusively cleared up and history books
could be rewritten...


And that is exactly why that is extremely unlikely to ever happen.

Ian Goddard

Re: DNA

Legg inn av Ian Goddard » 20. desember 2007 kl. 22.13

gro wrote:
On Dec 15, 9:01�pm, Hickory <[email protected]> wrote:
... For
instance, testing any present-day male Romanoff and comparing the
results with those of any present-day male-line representative of the
family which produced the line of German princelings to which the
Kings of Denmark belonged to up until the time of the father of the
present queen, then the age old question of whether the Tsars of
Russia after Catherine II descend from Peter the Great's grandson
Peter III or whether they descend from one of her lovers. To prove
whether they descend from the most likely lover, Saltykov, would
require a modern male line representative of that family (which do,
indeed, exist) participate. Within a couple of weeks, a question which
has occupied the best brains (and worst) among Russian historians for
about 250 years now could be conclusively cleared up and history books
could be rewritten...


And that is exactly why that is extremely unlikely to ever happen.
Wasn't something along these lines done to confirm the identity of some

of the remains from Ekaterinburg? Or was the set of people involved
inappropriate to this particular issue?

--
Ian

Hotmail is for spammers. Real mail address is igoddard
at nildram co uk

Ian Goddard

Re: DNA

Legg inn av Ian Goddard » 20. desember 2007 kl. 22.23

Dora Smith wrote:

I know of atleast one case where medieval mythologizing was disproved;
Edmund Rice the alleged descendant of the Angevin kings of England via
the Welsh aristocracy, albeit from Suffolk, turned out to be descended
from plain old Norse Vikings (probably Danish). Grin. The family
association has not adjusted yet. Some of them may even yelp at me on
this list! Their best yelp is that some Norman aristocrats were Norse
Vikings. The Y DNA of the Angevin dynasty is unknown.

From what you say this could, in fact, be the most favourable outcome
they could have looked for. I take it that the result is a haplotype
more common in Scandinavia than elsewhere.

Taking the view that a Scandinavian ancestry is the most likely for the
Angevin dynasty the null hypothesis would be a haplotype unknown in
Scandinavia. Testing has failed to confirm the null hypothesis.

I think I'd have written that up as "Not inconsistent with" or maybe
even "Consistent with".

What you didn't tell us is the frequency of the haplotype in the Welsh
population as a whole.

--
Ian

Hotmail is for spammers. Real mail address is igoddard
at nildram co uk

Gjest

Re: DNA

Legg inn av Gjest » 20. desember 2007 kl. 22.26

On Dec 20, 1:13 pm, Ian Goddard <[email protected]> wrote:

Wasn't something along these lines done to confirm the identity of some
of the remains from Ekaterinburg? Or was the set of people involved
inappropriate to this particular issue?


That study was done by analysis of mtDNA, which is indicative of the
female line.

taf

Gjest

Re: DNA

Legg inn av Gjest » 20. desember 2007 kl. 22.35

On Dec 20, 1:23 pm, Ian Goddard <[email protected]> wrote:
Taking the view that a Scandinavian ancestry is the most likely for the
Angevin dynasty the null hypothesis would be a haplotype unknown in
Scandinavia. Testing has failed to confirm the null hypothesis.

I don't think a Scandinavian ancestry for the Angevin dynasty is all
that likely. While the origin of the Angevin male line is subject to
debate, none of the hypotheses I have seen suggest viking stock.

What you didn't tell us is the frequency of the haplotype in the Welsh
population as a whole.

Quite. To even label a haplotype as 'Scandinavian' is a bit of a
stretch: it is just more common in Scandinavia than elsewhere.

taf

Ian Goddard

Re: DNA

Legg inn av Ian Goddard » 20. desember 2007 kl. 23.31

[email protected] wrote:

Quite. To even label a haplotype as 'Scandinavian' is a bit of a
stretch: it is just more common in Scandinavia than elsewhere.

taf

Quite indeed! That's why I took specific care not to label a haplotypes
as Scandinavian. Although I suppose "a haplotype unknown in" is also a
stretch.

--
Ian

Hotmail is for spammers. Real mail address is igoddard
at nildram co uk

Tony Hoskins

Re: Fw: Elizabeth Countess Kinski (or Kinsky)

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 20. desember 2007 kl. 23.40

Yes, ndeed, thanks so much, Pavel. Very interesting and such an "out of
the way" source.

Tony Hoskins

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
Sonoma County Archivist
Sonoma County History and Genealogy Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Dora Smith

Re: DNA

Legg inn av Dora Smith » 21. desember 2007 kl. 0.46

Actually I think you're right. Too easy to confuse William the Conqueror's
line with that of Geoffrey of Anjou.

--
Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, TX
[email protected]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On Dec 20, 1:23 pm, Ian Goddard <[email protected]> wrote:
Taking the view that a Scandinavian ancestry is the most likely for the
Angevin dynasty the null hypothesis would be a haplotype unknown in
Scandinavia. Testing has failed to confirm the null hypothesis.

I don't think a Scandinavian ancestry for the Angevin dynasty is all
that likely. While the origin of the Angevin male line is subject to
debate, none of the hypotheses I have seen suggest viking stock.

What you didn't tell us is the frequency of the haplotype in the Welsh
population as a whole.

Quite. To even label a haplotype as 'Scandinavian' is a bit of a
stretch: it is just more common in Scandinavia than elsewhere.

taf

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Dora Smith

Re: DNA

Legg inn av Dora Smith » 21. desember 2007 kl. 0.46

That would be quite a bit more common in Scandinavia than elsewhere.

--
Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, TX
[email protected]
"Ian Goddard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
[email protected] wrote:

Quite. To even label a haplotype as 'Scandinavian' is a bit of a
stretch: it is just more common in Scandinavia than elsewhere.

taf

Quite indeed! That's why I took specific care not to label a haplotypes
as Scandinavian. Although I suppose "a haplotype unknown in" is also a
stretch.

--
Ian

Hotmail is for spammers. Real mail address is igoddard
at nildram co uk

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Dora Smith

Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA

Legg inn av Dora Smith » 21. desember 2007 kl. 1.40

See http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproj ... off002.htm

It looks like he's the earliest noncontroversial male line ancestor of the
Plantagents. He was possibly the son of Hugues of Perche but that is
uncertain on account of lots of brothers who may or may not have been the
same people, with the same names, and not necessarily the same fathers.

Is Perche the same place as that wild area of forest hills west of Paris on
the border of Normandy that sent a large contigent of intact families to
Quebec very early? If so he could have been anything. Even Jewish. LOL.
Not kidding. My brother in law is descended ten million times from this
family named Boucher, whose DNA tells us they were probably of Jewish
descent. Allegedly the population spread into that area during teh medieval
warm period and formerly it may not even have been inhabited, adn it was
always difficult to control.

Apparently a single 19th century Rice genealogist speculated all over the
place that Edmund Rice was descended from Sir Griffith Rice or Sir Ryhs Ap
Thomas, and cited whatsit where baronial lines are cited which doesn't back
it up. I find Sir Griffith Rice to be the grandson of Sir Rhys Ap Thomas,
a cousin of Henry Tudor who became prominent in the early Tudor dynasty.
The Angevin link is maternal line. The paternal line traces to Merfin
Frych, a Welsh baron, from either the Isle of Man or the Firth of Forth, who
married well and founded a royal dynasty.

Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, TX
[email protected]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Hoskins" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 4:38 PM
Subject: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA


Wondering if Bouchard, Comte du Gâtinais (dead by 1026) is in fact the
earliest traced agnate ancestor of the Plantagenets. Noting Todd's words
I would observe that superficially "Bouchard" has to my eye a rather
distinctly non-Norse look to it.

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
Sonoma County Archivist
Sonoma County History and Genealogy Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

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Gjest

Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA

Legg inn av Gjest » 21. desember 2007 kl. 2.15

On Dec 20, 4:40 pm, "Dora Smith" <[email protected]> wrote:
Apparently a single 19th century Rice genealogist speculated all over the
place that Edmund Rice was descended from Sir Griffith Rice or Sir Ryhs Ap
Thomas, and cited whatsit where baronial lines are cited which doesn't back
it up. I find Sir Griffith Rice to be the grandson of Sir Rhys Ap Thomas,
a cousin of Henry Tudor who became prominent in the early Tudor dynasty.
The Angevin link is maternal line. The paternal line traces to Merfin
Frych, a Welsh baron, from either the Isle of Man or the Firth of Forth, who
married well and founded a royal dynasty.


Do you mean a male-line relative of Henry Tudor? If so, then Merfyn
Fyrch is not a male-line ancestor. The founder of the family's
prominence was a certain Ednyfed Fychan. It has been suggested that
the family migrated down from the Firth of Forth area of the Gododdin,
but this migration predated the Viking era.

taf

Wanda Thacker

Re: DNA

Legg inn av Wanda Thacker » 21. desember 2007 kl. 2.16

Thanks for the reply on DNA, Dora. I will check out the link you sent me. I have been curious about it for some time now.

Wanda Thacker

Dora Smith <[email protected]> wrote: Of course people have explored DNA as a research tool! Check out
http://www.familytreedna.com, or the dna genealogy list at Rootsweb.

You're results should be fascinating, whether they trace to medieval
aristocracy or not.

As a female, you could get your mtdna tested, at several levels of
resolution, and learn something of the population history of your maternal
line ancestors.

A man can get his Y DNA tested, and can often learn of relatively recent
genetic matches.

I don't actually know of any successful use of genetic testing to establish
links to the medieval aristocracy, though in some cases I've seen it feed
speculation. The problem is that usually the Y DNA lines of the actual
medieval aristocrats are not available for comparison.

However, DNA testing has cleared up many a genealogical mystery, some of
them involving 17th century emigrants to this country. For instance, Y DNA
has been used to link 17th century emigrants to their points of origin in
England, and to establish whether or not emigrant families who may have been
related actually were.

I know of atleast one case where medieval mythologizing was disproved;
Edmund Rice the alleged descendant of the Angevin kings of England via the
Welsh aristocracy, albeit from Suffolk, turned out to be descended from
plain old Norse Vikings (probably Danish). Grin. The family association
has not adjusted yet. Some of them may even yelp at me on this list!
Their best yelp is that some Norman aristocrats were Norse Vikings. The Y
DNA of the Angevin dynasty is unknown. Though Thomas Jefferson is alleged
to share it, "proving" that all European royalty are of "Phoenician"
descent, wink, wink. Thomas Jefferson was of Middle Eastern or North
African descent, and that set off great waves of speculation, and Spencer
Wells is doing one of better his sensationalist ideas that the Middle
Eastern Y DNA common in North Africa, which was really spread by Neolithic
farmers, is the result of Phoenician colonization. Most likely Thomas
Jefferson's paternal line was Jewish; the second most likely explanation is
an ancestor who went to Britain with the Romans.

Usually atleast HVR1 and HVR2 is best for mtdna, and 25 or 37 markers for Y
DNA, though there are lower resolution tests - and I believe that for
European royalty, only HVR1 is known. All modern European royalty are
apparently descended from just four or five medieval women. Most clades
can be resolved at the haplogroup level with just HVR1, with HVR2 for
greater resolution of genetic matches, though you get more resolution wiht
coding region markers. However, should you turn out to belong to
haplogroup H, which includes half of the people of western Europe, you are
very likely to want atleast an H deep clade test for about the same money
again to get any resolution at all, and you may want a complete
mitochondrial sequence. At that point, Family Tree DNA will apply only the
cost of the H deep clade test toward the $500 cost of the complete sequence.
This may not immediately tell you more than your actual clade to a high
degree of resolutoin and possibly its geographic history, because
relatively few people have had complete sequences done, and about half of
those that have been done were done for research and you cannot know the
ancestry of the subjects.

I went right for the complete sequence, partly because the subclades are
evolving rapidly. I turned out to be one of teh haplogroup H people who
would have had no resolution at all if I'd had only HVR1 and HVR2, and if
most companies had done the test I wouldn't even have known whether I'm
haplogroup H. I turned out to be H1*, which I would have learned from an
H deep clade test, but it will be the two rare coding region mutations to
that that may some day resolve the origins of my emigrant maternal line
ancestor.

I recommend Family Tree DNA because they do a good job with good quality
control and presently offer the best upgrades to whatever more work you may
want to have done.

Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, TX
[email protected]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wanda Thacker"
To:
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 4:04 PM
Subject: DNA


Has anyone on the list explored DNA as a research tool ? I am curious
about it, but I don't know if they have the data available to trace back
to Medieval ancestors.

I do not even know where to start looking. I have seen some DNA sites for
specific surnames, but none for Royal and Noble DNA.

I am also afraid it would ruin a little of my fun.


Wanda Thacker





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Wanda Thacker

Re: Royal Blinding

Legg inn av Wanda Thacker » 21. desember 2007 kl. 2.30

Thanks for the book reference. I found it on google books. Looks like interesting reading.

Peter Stewart <[email protected]> wrote:
"Wanda Thacker" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Is anyone on the list aware of the reason that Medieval rulers
blinded their relatives who had tried to overthrow them or who
they themselves had overthrown?

I wonder if the punishment was symbolic. Maybe meaning if you
could not see, you could not lead.

Wouldn't it have just been more efficient to execute them? Some
people who were blinded died anyway.

There is a commandment against killing, but not against blinding.

For a useful discussion of this subject, see Geneviève Bührer-Thierry's
'Just Anger' or 'Vengeful Anger'? The Punishment of Blinding in the Early
Medieval West, in _Anger's Past: The Social Uses of an Emotion in the Middle
Ages_, edited by Barbara Rosenwein (Ithaca & London, 1998).

Peter Stewart



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Use what talents you possess; the woods would be verysilent if no birds sang except those that sang best.
- Henry Van Dyke, 1852 - 1933




Birds sing after a storm; why shouldn't people feel asfree to delight in whatever sunlight remains to them?
- Rose FitzgeraldKennedy, 1890 - 1995




Be as a bird perched on a frail branch that she feelsbending beneath her, still she sings away all the same,knowing she has wings.
- Victor Hugo, 1802 - 1885


My Scrap Journaling Blog: http://lascorpia64.wordpress.com/ Check it out for journaling prompts RECENTLY UPDATED, A LOT OF QUOTES
MY LAYOUT BLOG http://introspectivescrapping.blogspot.com/
http://wandasscrappingfreebies.blogspot.com/
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Wanda Thacker

Re: DNA

Legg inn av Wanda Thacker » 21. desember 2007 kl. 2.40

Thanks, I will check out the link and the list.

Wanda

Valerie Karvoski <[email protected]> wrote: Dear Wanda,
I have a project for the famous von Thurn und Taxis family. It is called the Taxis Surname Y-DNA Project (http://www.taxisdna.com). So far, I have only convinced American family members to take the DNA test (waiting for results of another test). At least one German "Prinz" has told me he was interested in the project, but he did not want to take the DNA test. The genealogy for this family goes back to at least the 1200s.

There are also some Irish Clan DNA projects (see http://www.ftdna.com), whose genealogies go way back. You may wish to join the Genealogy-DNA e-mail list at Rootsweb. It is a very busy list, so be sure to join in Digest mode. There are real experts on this e-mail list who will be able to answer all of your questions. If you need the e-mail address to join that list, let me know and I will send it to you.

And, it will not ruin your fun. It increases it. It is just as addicting as regular genealogy.

Best Regards,
Valerie (von Vange) Karvoski
Project Administrator
Taxis Surname Y-DNA Project
http://www.taxisdna.com
Lesum-Area DNA Project
http://www.lesumarea.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Wanda Thacker
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 5:04 PM
Subject: DNA


Has anyone on the list explored DNA as a research tool ? I am curious about it, but I don't know if they have the data available to trace back to Medieval ancestors.

I do not even know where to start looking. I have seen some DNA sites for specific surnames, but none for Royal and Noble DNA.

I am also afraid it would ruin a little of my fun.


Wanda Thacker








Use what talents you possess; the woods would be verysilent if no birds sang except those that sang best.
- Henry Van Dyke, 1852 - 1933




Birds sing after a storm; why shouldn't people feel asfree to delight in whatever sunlight remains to them?
- Rose FitzgeraldKennedy, 1890 - 1995




Be as a bird perched on a frail branch that she feelsbending beneath her, still she sings away all the same,knowing she has wings.
- Victor Hugo, 1802 - 1885


My Scrap Journaling Blog: http://lascorpia64.wordpress.com/ Check it out for journaling prompts RECENTLY UPDATED, A LOT OF QUOTES
MY LAYOUT BLOG http://introspectivescrapping.blogspot.com/
http://wandasscrappingfreebies.blogspot.com/
POLITICAL OPINIONShttp://www.myspace.com/politica ... rrectrants

Wanda Thacker

Re: Royal Blinding

Legg inn av Wanda Thacker » 21. desember 2007 kl. 2.41

so, I wasn't too far off in figuring it was to render them unfit to lead. I just kept having that thing from the Bible pop into my head; the verse that says "If the blind lead the blind, they both fall in the ditch" or something pretty close to that.

Wonder why they didn't castrate them? That would have made them less than a man and also unfit. It's a good thing I'm a good person and a peasant, because I could do a good job of thinking up ways to be evil. LOL They could have dressed them in drag for an extra publicity boost.

Wanda Thacker

Nathaniel Taylor <[email protected]> wrote: In article ,
Wanda Thacker wrote:

Is anyone on the list aware of the reason that Medieval rulers blinded their
relatives who had tried to overthrow them or who they themselves had
overthrown?

I wonder if the punishment was symbolic. Maybe meaning if you could not see,
you could not lead.

Wouldn't it have just been more efficient to execute them? Some people who
were blinded died anyway.

Yes, and their dying was often criticized as a failure on the part of
the person who blinded them. On 15 April 818 Louis the Pious had his
nephew Bernard, King of Italy, blinded, following Bernard's unsuccessful
rebellion against the 817 division (ordinatio imperii) which effectively
disinherited him. The job was botched and Bernard died two days later
(either from infection, or from suicide--as the Astonomer suggests).
Blinding was a Byzantine tradition for putting rivals out of the way
(blinding them would render them unfit to rule according to tradition)
without actually killing them (which would have been an unpardonable
sin). This happened a few times in the Carolingian dynasty.

Christian Settipani's account, in _La prehistoire des Capetiens_, p.
213, cites the Astronomer and a couple other near-contemporary sources
on this, as well as a 1990 article by Karl Ferdinand Werner on Louis the
Pious.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

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Use what talents you possess; the woods would be verysilent if no birds sang except those that sang best.
- Henry Van Dyke, 1852 - 1933




Birds sing after a storm; why shouldn't people feel asfree to delight in whatever sunlight remains to them?
- Rose FitzgeraldKennedy, 1890 - 1995




Be as a bird perched on a frail branch that she feelsbending beneath her, still she sings away all the same,knowing she has wings.
- Victor Hugo, 1802 - 1885


My Scrap Journaling Blog: http://lascorpia64.wordpress.com/ Check it out for journaling prompts RECENTLY UPDATED, A LOT OF QUOTES
MY LAYOUT BLOG http://introspectivescrapping.blogspot.com/
http://wandasscrappingfreebies.blogspot.com/
POLITICAL OPINIONShttp://www.myspace.com/politica ... rrectrants

Wanda Thacker

Re: Royal Blinding

Legg inn av Wanda Thacker » 21. desember 2007 kl. 2.55

I hadn't yet come to your reply when I sent my last post, where I was joking about castration.

Wanda Thacker

Hickory <[email protected]> wrote: To the best of my memory, blinding was supposed to render an
individual handicapped and, therefore, less than a man, which was
assumed to more or less automatically make it impossible for such an
individual to be considered as a candidate for future kingship. Kings,
being anointed to God and, spiritually speaking, sacrificed to God to
serve his will, were, by analogy with Biblical passages concerning
sacrificial animals, to be both spotless and whole. Byzantine rulers,
by the way, often took things one step further, by having troublesome
male relatives castrated, thus both making them incapable of being
considered for future kingship and also incapable of secretly
producing children capable of successfully seizing the throne later.
Hikaru

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Use what talents you possess; the woods would be verysilent if no birds sang except those that sang best.
- Henry Van Dyke, 1852 - 1933




Birds sing after a storm; why shouldn't people feel asfree to delight in whatever sunlight remains to them?
- Rose FitzgeraldKennedy, 1890 - 1995




Be as a bird perched on a frail branch that she feelsbending beneath her, still she sings away all the same,knowing she has wings.
- Victor Hugo, 1802 - 1885


My Scrap Journaling Blog: http://lascorpia64.wordpress.com/ Check it out for journaling prompts RECENTLY UPDATED, A LOT OF QUOTES
MY LAYOUT BLOG http://introspectivescrapping.blogspot.com/
http://wandasscrappingfreebies.blogspot.com/
POLITICAL OPINIONShttp://www.myspace.com/politica ... rrectrants

Wanda Thacker

Re: DNA

Legg inn av Wanda Thacker » 21. desember 2007 kl. 3.05

Therein lies the problem. I suspect legal councilors have advised some of the European Royalty not to have DNA testing done, due to the possible loss of titles. Before DNA a child born during a marriage was legally the father's, at least for commoners. If that were true for royalty, I believe they would have a legal battle with DNA.

Wanda Thacker

Hickory <[email protected]> wrote:then the age old question of whether the Tsars of
Russia after Catherine II descend from Peter the Great's grandson
Peter III or whether they descend from one of her lovers. To prove
whether they descend from the most likely lover, Saltykov, would
require a modern male line representative of that family (which do,
indeed, exist) participate. Within a couple of weeks, a question which
has occupied the best brains (and worst) among Russian historians for
about 250 years now could be conclusively cleared up and history books
could be rewritten, depending on the test results. That's just one of
many applications I can think of.


Hikaru

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Use what talents you possess; the woods would be verysilent if no birds sang except those that sang best.
- Henry Van Dyke, 1852 - 1933




Birds sing after a storm; why shouldn't people feel asfree to delight in whatever sunlight remains to them?
- Rose FitzgeraldKennedy, 1890 - 1995




Be as a bird perched on a frail branch that she feelsbending beneath her, still she sings away all the same,knowing she has wings.
- Victor Hugo, 1802 - 1885


My Scrap Journaling Blog: http://lascorpia64.wordpress.com/ Check it out for journaling prompts RECENTLY UPDATED, A LOT OF QUOTES
MY LAYOUT BLOG http://introspectivescrapping.blogspot.com/
http://wandasscrappingfreebies.blogspot.com/
POLITICAL OPINIONShttp://www.myspace.com/politica ... rrectrants

Wanda Thacker

Re: Royal Blinding

Legg inn av Wanda Thacker » 21. desember 2007 kl. 3.16

This is just speculation and forgive me if I appear to be profane or in bad taste. Some people have always had old wives tales about the correlation between the size of certain body parts and how well endowed a man is. Sometimes it is feet. Sometimes it is hands. Sometimes it is a nose.

So, maybe it was another form of emasculation. ??? Just a thought. Maybe there will be something about it in the book Angers Past.

Wanda Thacker

[email protected] wrote: In a message dated 12/15/2007 4:00:19 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

Blinding was a Byzantine tradition for putting rivals out of the way >>
---------------------
I was reading in idle moments "A short history of Byzantium" and they also
mention that for a while, cutting off a rivals nose was an effective way to ban
them from the succession. But then at one time, a noseless man became
Emperor which sort of put a stop to its effectiveness.

I wonder why the "nose" was seen as so important? Why not the hands? or
tongue or ears or ....

Will Johnson






**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?N ... 0000000004)

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Use what talents you possess; the woods would be verysilent if no birds sang except those that sang best.
- Henry Van Dyke, 1852 - 1933




Birds sing after a storm; why shouldn't people feel asfree to delight in whatever sunlight remains to them?
- Rose FitzgeraldKennedy, 1890 - 1995




Be as a bird perched on a frail branch that she feelsbending beneath her, still she sings away all the same,knowing she has wings.
- Victor Hugo, 1802 - 1885


My Scrap Journaling Blog: http://lascorpia64.wordpress.com/ Check it out for journaling prompts RECENTLY UPDATED, A LOT OF QUOTES
MY LAYOUT BLOG http://introspectivescrapping.blogspot.com/
http://wandasscrappingfreebies.blogspot.com/
POLITICAL OPINIONShttp://www.myspace.com/politica ... rrectrants

Wanda Thacker

Re: Royal Blinding

Legg inn av Wanda Thacker » 21. desember 2007 kl. 3.25

Here, Here! I agree. We are having to go to court to get custody of my grandson and the welfare people are trying to discriminate against us because my husband has a seizure disorder which is controlled by medicine and I have lupus which is controlled as well. Disabled and handicapped are inaccurate words.

Wanda Thacker

Hickory <[email protected]> wrote: What was important in medieval society was ritual wholeness of body
and the not capacity to complete the sex act, something which was
deprecated by medieval Christianity, being a religion which valued
virginity not only in women but in men, too. I only remember two
medieval examples of lepers being kings, one of the crusader kings of
Jerusalem who became king as a small child and Robert I of Scotland in
his old age. In both cases, they became lepers after becoming kings
and neither became a king after becoming a leper. No castrated
individual that I can remember ever became a king in Europe during
Christian times, though examples of reaching high state office exist,
and one example in the early modern period of becoming head of state
exists in what is now Iran. As for the blind, the only case I am aware
of where someone blind from birth became a king in Europe was in that
of one of the 19th century kings of Hanover. A small number of blind
individuals can be shown to have become medieval heads of state after
having become, for one reason or another, blind after having passed
through childhood. One can assume that in such cases their blindness
did not result in the dissolution of their pre-existing power bases
which, over the course of history, has been a good thing, as each
successful assertion of power by a such a person has, in its own way,
helped to very slowly overcome the extremely strong prejudice that
existed almost universally in traditional European societies against
the physically handicapped. I truly wish there were more exceptions to
the rule than one can easily find and that, for the sake of the
handicapped, they had left more of an impression on history.

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message




Use what talents you possess; the woods would be verysilent if no birds sang except those that sang best.
- Henry Van Dyke, 1852 - 1933




Birds sing after a storm; why shouldn't people feel asfree to delight in whatever sunlight remains to them?
- Rose FitzgeraldKennedy, 1890 - 1995




Be as a bird perched on a frail branch that she feelsbending beneath her, still she sings away all the same,knowing she has wings.
- Victor Hugo, 1802 - 1885


My Scrap Journaling Blog: http://lascorpia64.wordpress.com/ Check it out for journaling prompts RECENTLY UPDATED, A LOT OF QUOTES
MY LAYOUT BLOG http://introspectivescrapping.blogspot.com/
http://wandasscrappingfreebies.blogspot.com/
POLITICAL OPINIONShttp://www.myspace.com/politica ... rrectrants

Wanda Thacker

Re: Royal Blinding

Legg inn av Wanda Thacker » 21. desember 2007 kl. 3.25

Here, Here! I agree. We are having to go to court to get custody of my grandson and the welfare people are trying to discriminate against us because my husband has a seizure disorder which is controlled by medicine and I have lupus which is controlled as well. Disabled and handicapped are inaccurate words.

Wanda Thacker

Hickory <[email protected]> wrote: What was important in medieval society was ritual wholeness of body
and the not capacity to complete the sex act, something which was
deprecated by medieval Christianity, being a religion which valued
virginity not only in women but in men, too. I only remember two
medieval examples of lepers being kings, one of the crusader kings of
Jerusalem who became king as a small child and Robert I of Scotland in
his old age. In both cases, they became lepers after becoming kings
and neither became a king after becoming a leper. No castrated
individual that I can remember ever became a king in Europe during
Christian times, though examples of reaching high state office exist,
and one example in the early modern period of becoming head of state
exists in what is now Iran. As for the blind, the only case I am aware
of where someone blind from birth became a king in Europe was in that
of one of the 19th century kings of Hanover. A small number of blind
individuals can be shown to have become medieval heads of state after
having become, for one reason or another, blind after having passed
through childhood. One can assume that in such cases their blindness
did not result in the dissolution of their pre-existing power bases
which, over the course of history, has been a good thing, as each
successful assertion of power by a such a person has, in its own way,
helped to very slowly overcome the extremely strong prejudice that
existed almost universally in traditional European societies against
the physically handicapped. I truly wish there were more exceptions to
the rule than one can easily find and that, for the sake of the
handicapped, they had left more of an impression on history.

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message




Use what talents you possess; the woods would be verysilent if no birds sang except those that sang best.
- Henry Van Dyke, 1852 - 1933




Birds sing after a storm; why shouldn't people feel asfree to delight in whatever sunlight remains to them?
- Rose FitzgeraldKennedy, 1890 - 1995




Be as a bird perched on a frail branch that she feelsbending beneath her, still she sings away all the same,knowing she has wings.
- Victor Hugo, 1802 - 1885


My Scrap Journaling Blog: http://lascorpia64.wordpress.com/ Check it out for journaling prompts RECENTLY UPDATED, A LOT OF QUOTES
MY LAYOUT BLOG http://introspectivescrapping.blogspot.com/
http://wandasscrappingfreebies.blogspot.com/
POLITICAL OPINIONShttp://www.myspace.com/politica ... rrectrants

Wanda Thacker

Re: Royal Blinding

Legg inn av Wanda Thacker » 21. desember 2007 kl. 3.25

Here, Here! I agree. We are having to go to court to get custody of my grandson and the welfare people are trying to discriminate against us because my husband has a seizure disorder which is controlled by medicine and I have lupus which is controlled as well. Disabled and handicapped are inaccurate words.

Wanda Thacker

Hickory <[email protected]> wrote: What was important in medieval society was ritual wholeness of body
and the not capacity to complete the sex act, something which was
deprecated by medieval Christianity, being a religion which valued
virginity not only in women but in men, too. I only remember two
medieval examples of lepers being kings, one of the crusader kings of
Jerusalem who became king as a small child and Robert I of Scotland in
his old age. In both cases, they became lepers after becoming kings
and neither became a king after becoming a leper. No castrated
individual that I can remember ever became a king in Europe during
Christian times, though examples of reaching high state office exist,
and one example in the early modern period of becoming head of state
exists in what is now Iran. As for the blind, the only case I am aware
of where someone blind from birth became a king in Europe was in that
of one of the 19th century kings of Hanover. A small number of blind
individuals can be shown to have become medieval heads of state after
having become, for one reason or another, blind after having passed
through childhood. One can assume that in such cases their blindness
did not result in the dissolution of their pre-existing power bases
which, over the course of history, has been a good thing, as each
successful assertion of power by a such a person has, in its own way,
helped to very slowly overcome the extremely strong prejudice that
existed almost universally in traditional European societies against
the physically handicapped. I truly wish there were more exceptions to
the rule than one can easily find and that, for the sake of the
handicapped, they had left more of an impression on history.

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Use what talents you possess; the woods would be verysilent if no birds sang except those that sang best.
- Henry Van Dyke, 1852 - 1933




Birds sing after a storm; why shouldn't people feel asfree to delight in whatever sunlight remains to them?
- Rose FitzgeraldKennedy, 1890 - 1995




Be as a bird perched on a frail branch that she feelsbending beneath her, still she sings away all the same,knowing she has wings.
- Victor Hugo, 1802 - 1885


My Scrap Journaling Blog: http://lascorpia64.wordpress.com/ Check it out for journaling prompts RECENTLY UPDATED, A LOT OF QUOTES
MY LAYOUT BLOG http://introspectivescrapping.blogspot.com/
http://wandasscrappingfreebies.blogspot.com/
POLITICAL OPINIONShttp://www.myspace.com/politica ... rrectrants

Wanda Thacker

Re: Royal Blinding

Legg inn av Wanda Thacker » 21. desember 2007 kl. 3.25

Here, Here! I agree. We are having to go to court to get custody of my grandson and the welfare people are trying to discriminate against us because my husband has a seizure disorder which is controlled by medicine and I have lupus which is controlled as well. Disabled and handicapped are inaccurate words.

Wanda Thacker

Hickory <[email protected]> wrote: What was important in medieval society was ritual wholeness of body
and the not capacity to complete the sex act, something which was
deprecated by medieval Christianity, being a religion which valued
virginity not only in women but in men, too. I only remember two
medieval examples of lepers being kings, one of the crusader kings of
Jerusalem who became king as a small child and Robert I of Scotland in
his old age. In both cases, they became lepers after becoming kings
and neither became a king after becoming a leper. No castrated
individual that I can remember ever became a king in Europe during
Christian times, though examples of reaching high state office exist,
and one example in the early modern period of becoming head of state
exists in what is now Iran. As for the blind, the only case I am aware
of where someone blind from birth became a king in Europe was in that
of one of the 19th century kings of Hanover. A small number of blind
individuals can be shown to have become medieval heads of state after
having become, for one reason or another, blind after having passed
through childhood. One can assume that in such cases their blindness
did not result in the dissolution of their pre-existing power bases
which, over the course of history, has been a good thing, as each
successful assertion of power by a such a person has, in its own way,
helped to very slowly overcome the extremely strong prejudice that
existed almost universally in traditional European societies against
the physically handicapped. I truly wish there were more exceptions to
the rule than one can easily find and that, for the sake of the
handicapped, they had left more of an impression on history.

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message




Use what talents you possess; the woods would be verysilent if no birds sang except those that sang best.
- Henry Van Dyke, 1852 - 1933




Birds sing after a storm; why shouldn't people feel asfree to delight in whatever sunlight remains to them?
- Rose FitzgeraldKennedy, 1890 - 1995




Be as a bird perched on a frail branch that she feelsbending beneath her, still she sings away all the same,knowing she has wings.
- Victor Hugo, 1802 - 1885


My Scrap Journaling Blog: http://lascorpia64.wordpress.com/ Check it out for journaling prompts RECENTLY UPDATED, A LOT OF QUOTES
MY LAYOUT BLOG http://introspectivescrapping.blogspot.com/
http://wandasscrappingfreebies.blogspot.com/
POLITICAL OPINIONShttp://www.myspace.com/politica ... rrectrants

CE Wood

Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA

Legg inn av CE Wood » 21. desember 2007 kl. 3.40

There are genealogies that say Merfyn Frych was the 17th great-
grandfather of Henry Tudor VII, King of England, just as they say
Ednyfed Fycahn was Henry's 6th great-grandfather. Is this not so?

CE Wood

On Dec 20, 5:14 pm, [email protected] wrote:
On Dec 20, 4:40 pm, "Dora Smith" <[email protected]> wrote:

Apparently a single 19th century Rice genealogist speculated all over the
place that Edmund Rice was descended from Sir Griffith Rice or Sir Ryhs Ap
Thomas, and cited whatsit where baronial lines are cited which doesn't back
it up. I find Sir Griffith Rice to be the grandson of Sir Rhys Ap Thomas,
a cousin of Henry Tudor who became prominent in the early Tudor dynasty.
The Angevin link is maternal line. The paternal line traces to Merfin
Frych, a Welsh baron, from either the Isle of Man or the Firth of Forth, who
married well and founded a royal dynasty.

Do you mean a male-line relative of Henry Tudor? If so, then Merfyn
Fyrch is not a male-line ancestor. The founder of the family's
prominence was a certain Ednyfed Fychan. It has been suggested that
the family migrated down from the Firth of Forth area of the Gododdin,
but this migration predated the Viking era.

taf

Wanda Thacker

Re: Royal Blinding DNA and hemophilia

Legg inn av Wanda Thacker » 21. desember 2007 kl. 3.50

This hemophilia in several of the royal families is one of the reasons I first wondered about DNA research into the DNA of royal families and genealogy. I found that my husband and I are related to each other as 5th cousins after we were married for 18 years. We have many royal ancestors in common. Coincidentally, both my husband and father are hemophiliacs.A normal PT test range is 11-15. My husbands was around 28. My son is also. My brother used to wake up in a pool of blood when he cut a new tooth as a small child.

There are so many advances in genetic research and disease that it is amazing.

Wanda Thacker

Hovite <[email protected]> wrote: On Dec 16, 4:51 pm, Hickory wrote:

The fact is, I can't
think of a single case, because, as far as I know (and the range of my
knowledge could never begin to encompass the whole of historical
knowledge), no one appears in the historical record in Europe
who was born handicapped and
in the immediate line of succession to a European throne with the one
possible exception (which may be shown to be wrong as I don't clearly
remember the details) of the elder brother of the father of the
present King of Spain Juan Carlos. Even here I might be shown wrong,
but, whatever the reason, he was deemed unsuitable and was required to
give up his rights to the Spanish throne.

Alfonso XIII of Spain had four sons:
1. Alfonso, a haemophilic, renpounced
2. Jaime, deaf and dumb, renounced
3. Jaun, father of the prsent king
4. Gonzalo, a haemophilic

Another very recent example
of some form of handicap among a royal child, but one which was not
directly connected with succession issues was that of a younger son of
George V and Queen Mary (Prince John?). I once read that his parents
kept him away from the public eye very much on purpose and that he
died quite young.

Prince John certainly died young. Whether he was really "kept him away
from the public eye" is less clear.

Consider also Bavaria (the possibly mad Ludwig II and his certainly
mad brother Otto), the haemophilic son of Nicholas II of Russia, and
the children of Robert, Duke of Parma; also Alexander, Prince of Lippe
(Lippe was ruled by regents during his reign).


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Use what talents you possess; the woods would be verysilent if no birds sang except those that sang best.
- Henry Van Dyke, 1852 - 1933




Birds sing after a storm; why shouldn't people feel asfree to delight in whatever sunlight remains to them?
- Rose FitzgeraldKennedy, 1890 - 1995




Be as a bird perched on a frail branch that she feelsbending beneath her, still she sings away all the same,knowing she has wings.
- Victor Hugo, 1802 - 1885


My Scrap Journaling Blog: http://lascorpia64.wordpress.com/ Check it out for journaling prompts RECENTLY UPDATED, A LOT OF QUOTES
MY LAYOUT BLOG http://introspectivescrapping.blogspot.com/
http://wandasscrappingfreebies.blogspot.com/
POLITICAL OPINIONShttp://www.myspace.com/politica ... rrectrants

Wanda Thacker

Re: "Once Removed" In French

Legg inn av Wanda Thacker » 21. desember 2007 kl. 4.00

I just barely live in the North. LOL Right in the southern tip of Ohio.But my relatives are all southern. My kids call my best friend from high school Aunt. It pleases her since she was unable to have children of her own and she is the closest I have to a sister.

Wanda

"D. Spencer Hines" <[email protected]> wrote: Americans do the same thing, particularly in the South.

It's a means of showing respect to a good family friend -- often an
unmarried or widowed female.

I had several Aunts -- but one in particular, who was a dear soul...

Aunt Mayme.

God Bless Her.

DSH

"Renia" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

"In my social circle, the expression "a la mode de Bretagne" was always
used for cousins. For me, it means people whose lineages are very old and
whose origins are lost in time, or not very well established. It could
also mean people who were not part of the family but who were present at
all the important family events."

A bit like Brits who refer to "Aunty Mary", who is not related at all, but
who is very friendly with the family.



-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message




Use what talents you possess; the woods would be verysilent if no birds sang except those that sang best.
- Henry Van Dyke, 1852 - 1933




Birds sing after a storm; why shouldn't people feel asfree to delight in whatever sunlight remains to them?
- Rose FitzgeraldKennedy, 1890 - 1995




Be as a bird perched on a frail branch that she feelsbending beneath her, still she sings away all the same,knowing she has wings.
- Victor Hugo, 1802 - 1885


My Scrap Journaling Blog: http://lascorpia64.wordpress.com/ Check it out for journaling prompts RECENTLY UPDATED, A LOT OF QUOTES
MY LAYOUT BLOG http://introspectivescrapping.blogspot.com/
http://wandasscrappingfreebies.blogspot.com/
POLITICAL OPINIONShttp://www.myspace.com/politica ... rrectrants

D. Spencer Hines

Re: "Once Removed" In French

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 21. desember 2007 kl. 4.17

Exactly...

That's why it's a Cultured Southern Tradition. <g>

DSH

"Wanda Thacker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

I just barely live in the North. LOL Right in the southern tip of Ohio.But
my relatives are all southern. My kids call my best friend from high
school Aunt. It pleases her since she was unable to have children of her
own and she is the closest I have to a sister.

Wanda

"D. Spencer Hines" <[email protected]> wrote:

Americans do the same thing, particularly in the South.

It's a means of showing respect to a good family friend -- often an
unmarried or widowed female.

I had several Aunts -- but one in particular, who was a dear soul...

Aunt Mayme.

God Bless Her.

DSH

"Renia" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

"In my social circle, the expression "a la mode de Bretagne" was always
used for cousins. For me, it means people whose lineages are very old and
whose origins are lost in time, or not very well established. It could
also mean people who were not part of the family but who were present at
all the important family events."

A bit like Brits who refer to "Aunty Mary", who is not related at all,
but who is very friendly with the family.

Wanda Thacker

Re: What is Royalty ?? almanac de gotha

Legg inn av Wanda Thacker » 21. desember 2007 kl. 5.16

I found a few links on the almanac.
This one gives you an online version: http://almanachdegotha.org/_wsn/page2.html

this one is for wikipedia and has links at the bottom: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almanach_de_Gotha

and this one just claims to be A gotha not THE gotha: http://pages.prodigy.net/ptheroff/gotha/gotha.htm


Wanda Thacker

[email protected] wrote: On Dec 17, 6:15 pm, "Leo van de Pas" wrote:
Dora Smith has raised a very interesting aspect in regards to "Royalty".

What is exactly Royalty? I think it is a term used and abused. I think the worst abuse was by Ronald Ferguson, who going to a massage parlour asked their opinion about dealing with royalty, meaning himself. He is a descendant of King Charles II, but in my opinion, he definitely is not a royal.
His daughter while married to the Duke of York, I think she was, but now, as mother of two royal princesses, is she still to be regarded as royalty?

Say before World War One, members of royal families were allowed only to marry with people recorded in the Almanach de Gotha.
Does this imply that we should regard all the families recorded in the Almanach de Gotha as royalty? I think not.

The Almanac de Gotha divided these families into three levels. The family of Queen Paola of Belgium belongs in the 3rd (and lowest ?) level.

In the most recent Almanch de Gotha I have, interestingly starts the first segment with the kings of Afghanistan. I would love to have seen a crownprince or any royal princess in Europe wanting to marry a member of that family :-)

Here are the families of the first level
kings of Afghanistan
Albania (the Wied family)
Anhalt
the House of Austria
the House of Baden
the kings of Bavaria
the kings of Belgium
the House of Bonaparte
the house de Bourbon
the house de Braganca
the house of Brunswick-Luneburg (Hannover)
kings of Bulgaria
kings of Denmark
kings of Egypt
kings of Spain
imperial family of Ethiopia
kings of Great Britain
the kings of Greece
the House of Hedjaz
the House of Hessen
the House of Hohenzollern (see Prussia)
the House of Holstein
the kings of Italy
the Imperial family of Japan
the House of Liechtenstein
the House of Lippe
the House of Luxembourg
the House of Mecklenburg
the House of Monaco
the House of Montenegro
the House of Nepal
the kings of Norway
the House of Oldenburg
the house of Oman
the House of Osman
the Kingdom of the Netherlands
the Imperial family of Persia
the House of Prussia
the House of Reuss
the Imperial family of Russia
the kings of Roumania
the kings of Saxony
the House of Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach
the House of Saxe-Meiningen-Hildburghausen
the House of Saxe-Altenburg
the House of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha
the House of Schaumburg-Lippe
the House of Schwarzburg
the kings of Serbia
the kings of Siam
the kings of Sweden
the House of Waldeck
the House of Wurttemberg

The second and third part have many more families.

Now the question is, where do you draw the line, who is and who is not "royalty" ?

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia

I've never seen the Almanach de Gotha but it's understandable that
they include the Imperial families of Japan and Ethiopia (descended
respectively from the Sun Goddess and King Solomon). However it's a
stretch for them to be including the royal family of Afghanistan, who
not too many generations ago originated from Payinda Khan, a mountain
bandit chieftain.

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Use what talents you possess; the woods would be verysilent if no birds sang except those that sang best.
- Henry Van Dyke, 1852 - 1933




Birds sing after a storm; why shouldn't people feel asfree to delight in whatever sunlight remains to them?
- Rose FitzgeraldKennedy, 1890 - 1995




Be as a bird perched on a frail branch that she feelsbending beneath her, still she sings away all the same,knowing she has wings.
- Victor Hugo, 1802 - 1885


My Scrap Journaling Blog: http://lascorpia64.wordpress.com/ Check it out for journaling prompts RECENTLY UPDATED, A LOT OF QUOTES
MY LAYOUT BLOG http://introspectivescrapping.blogspot.com/
http://wandasscrappingfreebies.blogspot.com/
POLITICAL OPINIONShttp://www.myspace.com/politica ... rrectrants

Wanda Thacker

Re: DNA and what is royalty?

Legg inn av Wanda Thacker » 21. desember 2007 kl. 5.17

Don't most of the royal houses have a history of at least attempting to find spouses from other royal lines? Has it been very common for them to marry the very common? I don't know.

Some kings weren't ultimately purebreds. William The Conqueror had a lot of mutts/Vikings in his tree and they achieved their nobility through sword and marriage.

Whomever the first king was, he was not hatched from an egg. He had to have come from ordinary parents. If the peasants had too much time to think between back breaking tasks, they would figure that out. That's why the king had to put out the propaganda that he was chosen by God.

My idea of royalty has always just been whatever the ruling family and their direct descendants were. I guess that really means the inheriting line in some people's minds. But, I am directly descended from royalty and yet I am not royalty. This is definitely food for thought, the question of what is royalty.

Maybe the question depends on how many generations you are from a royal ancestor. Maybe it is a little like the way the bigots in the old south used to determine if you were black or not. It literally depended on the number of generations since your black ancestor. They had various degrees or categories of black too.

The same sort of thing is used to determine if you are legally a Native American. I know that I am 1/8 Cherokee, which is legal to claim tribal membership. But if you looked at me you would laugh. I am so white, I glow in the dark. But if my body were ever dismembered, a forensic reconstruction might very well show me with darker skin, because I have the bone structure.

Just goes to show, under the skin, we are not so very different, royal or not.

Wanda Thacker

"M.Sjostrom" <[email protected]> wrote:
To display some examples, for readers having a
tangible feel what happened to and in royal and noble
matrilines:


Matriline from Euphrosyne Doukaina Kamatera (was she
'royal'?):
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?pers ... erations=6
Which, in my opinion, is Europe's most celebrated
matriline, the Greek one.


The 'Palomilla' Matriline, presumably (but not totally
certainly) progenited by Adelaide de Bezieres (how was
she royal?):
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?pers ... erations=6


The 'ancient Luxembourg' matriline (sometimes referred
to as 'Putelendorf matriline'), progenited by daughter
of count of Arlon (was she really 'royal'?):
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?pers ... erations=6


The Rhetian Alps matriline, progenited by someone from
'Aspermont' (and tell me what makes her royalty?):
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?pers ... erations=6


A Wendic matriline (via Salome Czastalowicz):
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?pers ... erations=6


The hallowed Belarusian matriline (via queen Maria
Leszczynska; her antecedents, are they regarded
royalty :)
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?pers ... erations=6




Examples of more 'regional' matrilines:

Matriline from Cecilie Jensdatter, dowager of
Harabjerga (a noblewoman in Scania, Eastern Denmark) -
also this possibly fulfills someone's requirements for
being a royalty female line: there are the sibling
bunch of royal princesses of Sweden in this matriline,
each married with a ruler in the Holy Roman Empire:
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?pers ... erations=6


[If Leo ever gets around to fill the missing links...]
This matriline is known to survive to the present day,
and be one of longest known matrilines in Finland
(starting from Kaarina, heiress of Kimalaissalmi):
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?pers ... erations=6
(Yes, I am aware this is not royalty at all; it is
just that lowly class called original nobility.)


A matriline throughout centuries of Swedish history
(progenited by an Anna living in Holsatia,
traditionally dubbed as Anne Limbaek):
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?pers ... erations=6


Matriline from southern Italy via Jacquetta de
Luxembourg:
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?pers ... erations=6


Matriline of Elizabeth I of England (another Elizabeth
who was queen of, among others, England, and had not a
royal "female line"):
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?pers ... erations=6


A Flandrian matriline (progenited by de Coucy)
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?pers ... erations=6




Possibly extinct, very interesting matrilines:

Matriline of 'lousy birthers' (from Beatrix of
Faucigny):
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?pers ... erations=6
survived at least to 1800s.


Matriline progenited by Viola - who mythically was a
royal from medieval Bulgaria, but may have been just a
Wendic or Polish high-medieval woman without
noteworthy antecedents:
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?pers ... erations=6


Matriline of Barcellos, produced a series of early
modern Habsburgs, via Isabella the catholic:
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?pers ... erations=6



One thing shows very clearly: within a handful of
generations, a highly noble matriline may have
circulated around the entire Europe.

And, a matriline from someone from lower nobility of
her time (practically the lowest option in medieval
era yet to have an attested matriline for centuries),
may easily have expanded to several countries.

Lines of women clearly did not remain in one country,
at least were there some rank of nobility. We do not
have any worthwhile material about commoner-class
lineages of even a late medieval era, to show attested
matrilines.



____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

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Use what talents you possess; the woods would be verysilent if no birds sang except those that sang best.
- Henry Van Dyke, 1852 - 1933




Birds sing after a storm; why shouldn't people feel asfree to delight in whatever sunlight remains to them?
- Rose FitzgeraldKennedy, 1890 - 1995




Be as a bird perched on a frail branch that she feelsbending beneath her, still she sings away all the same,knowing she has wings.
- Victor Hugo, 1802 - 1885


My Scrap Journaling Blog: http://lascorpia64.wordpress.com/ Check it out for journaling prompts RECENTLY UPDATED, A LOT OF QUOTES
MY LAYOUT BLOG http://introspectivescrapping.blogspot.com/
http://wandasscrappingfreebies.blogspot.com/
POLITICAL OPINIONShttp://www.myspace.com/politica ... rrectrants

Wanda Thacker

Re: What is Royalty ??

Legg inn av Wanda Thacker » 21. desember 2007 kl. 5.18

They also claim to have the Ark of The Covenant.

Wanda Thacker

wjhonson <[email protected]> wrote: > I've never seen the Almanach de Gotha but it's understandable that
they include the Imperial families of Japan and Ethiopia (descended
respectively from the Sun Goddess and King Solomon). However it's a
stretch for them to be including the royal family of Afghanistan, who
not too many generations ago originated from Payinda Khan, a mountain
bandit chieftain.

I'm sure you're aware that the claim of the Ethiopian house to descend
from Solomon is spurious.

Will johnson

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To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message




Use what talents you possess; the woods would be verysilent if no birds sang except those that sang best.
- Henry Van Dyke, 1852 - 1933




Birds sing after a storm; why shouldn't people feel asfree to delight in whatever sunlight remains to them?
- Rose FitzgeraldKennedy, 1890 - 1995




Be as a bird perched on a frail branch that she feelsbending beneath her, still she sings away all the same,knowing she has wings.
- Victor Hugo, 1802 - 1885


My Scrap Journaling Blog: http://lascorpia64.wordpress.com/ Check it out for journaling prompts RECENTLY UPDATED, A LOT OF QUOTES
MY LAYOUT BLOG http://introspectivescrapping.blogspot.com/
http://wandasscrappingfreebies.blogspot.com/
POLITICAL OPINIONShttp://www.myspace.com/politica ... rrectrants

Dora Smith

Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA

Legg inn av Dora Smith » 21. desember 2007 kl. 5.19

From Sir Griffith Rice and Sir Rhys Ap Thomas, through Somebody Tewdwr, to
Merfvyn Frych, is what I found. Henry Tudor was a cousin.

--
Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, TX
[email protected]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:858fa8b5-5915-4456-8b0d-d9f264f5b7e8@b40g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 20, 4:40 pm, "Dora Smith" <[email protected]> wrote:
Apparently a single 19th century Rice genealogist speculated all over the
place that Edmund Rice was descended from Sir Griffith Rice or Sir Ryhs
Ap
Thomas, and cited whatsit where baronial lines are cited which doesn't
back
it up. I find Sir Griffith Rice to be the grandson of Sir Rhys Ap
Thomas,
a cousin of Henry Tudor who became prominent in the early Tudor dynasty.
The Angevin link is maternal line. The paternal line traces to Merfin
Frych, a Welsh baron, from either the Isle of Man or the Firth of Forth,
who
married well and founded a royal dynasty.


Do you mean a male-line relative of Henry Tudor? If so, then Merfyn
Fyrch is not a male-line ancestor. The founder of the family's
prominence was a certain Ednyfed Fychan. It has been suggested that
the family migrated down from the Firth of Forth area of the Gododdin,
but this migration predated the Viking era.

taf

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Dora Smith

Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA

Legg inn av Dora Smith » 21. desember 2007 kl. 5.21

Any chance this Ednyfed Fychan was of the same line? Because this Merfyn
Frych was allegedly from one of two places, one of which was the Fifth of
Forth. But this wasn't very early in time.

--
Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, TX
[email protected]

"CE Wood" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:724fbca3-718d-475d-a9ba-e22f19cbbff6@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
There are genealogies that say Merfyn Frych was the 17th great-
grandfather of Henry Tudor VII, King of England, just as they say
Ednyfed Fycahn was Henry's 6th great-grandfather. Is this not so?

CE Wood

On Dec 20, 5:14 pm, [email protected] wrote:
On Dec 20, 4:40 pm, "Dora Smith" <[email protected]> wrote:

Apparently a single 19th century Rice genealogist speculated all over
the
place that Edmund Rice was descended from Sir Griffith Rice or Sir Ryhs
Ap
Thomas, and cited whatsit where baronial lines are cited which doesn't
back
it up. I find Sir Griffith Rice to be the grandson of Sir Rhys Ap
Thomas,
a cousin of Henry Tudor who became prominent in the early Tudor
dynasty.
The Angevin link is maternal line. The paternal line traces to Merfin
Frych, a Welsh baron, from either the Isle of Man or the Firth of
Forth, who
married well and founded a royal dynasty.

Do you mean a male-line relative of Henry Tudor? If so, then Merfyn
Fyrch is not a male-line ancestor. The founder of the family's
prominence was a certain Ednyfed Fychan. It has been suggested that
the family migrated down from the Firth of Forth area of the Gododdin,
but this migration predated the Viking era.

taf


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Wanda Thacker

Re: Royal Blinding DNA and hemophilia

Legg inn av Wanda Thacker » 21. desember 2007 kl. 5.55

I believe you are correct about how at least one type of hemophilia was passed on. I found that there are many clotting and bleeding disorders.Neither my husband or my father have ever been told exactly what type they have. The doctors have assumed that there may be an autoimmune problem with my fathers, since he has Rheumatoid Arthritis. I am not sure if I am a carrier or not. The two relatives my husband and I have in common are both women. His grandmother and mine are third cousins. I do not know if that would be significant in the genetics or not. What got me curious was wondering if my husband having it, made my son more likely to inherit it from me, if I am a carrier. If our family has the type only passed by women, then I wonder how my Mother ties in. She has royal ancestry too. It is something that would have to be puzzled out by researchers, but it does lead the mind toward where genealogy and science might coexist in the future.

Out of my husband and my four parents 3 of them have royal lines and multiple ones.

I joined this list when my data base started getting out of hand and I wanted to start being more exact and accurate about these lines. I wanted better documentation than just finding the trees online. So, I am slowly going back in and trying to find sources to quote. I know this is bassackwards. LOL I have your site bookmarked and will be checking it out as I can. I have a legal thing going on right now and am having to spend a lot of time in court and my father has cancer so my time is not my own.

That's why I haven't posted for several days and then have been posting all evening. A lull in the chaos gave me some time to at least catch up on some email and destress by thinking on something else.

If you would like, I will try to post an outline tree for you soon and then, if you want anything from there, a gedcom or etc. If I do that, then the list members can help me pick it apart. I've never seen anyone do that on this list, so I am not sure how it has usually been handled. I could put it up on a webpage and not clog up the mail. My tree has become a monster. I have split off most of my main lines and my husbands that are just regular people and who go back so far and then the trail goes cold. But the royal and noble file is over 8000 people, because when I put in a couple, I include all of their kids, not just the one I descend from.
One pair of my ancestors should have had 8 pair of great grandparents between them and only had four. The tree sorta stopped forking in that generation. So, that's why I always include all of the kids.

Wanda Thacker

Leo van de Pas <[email protected]> wrote: Dear Wanda,
Knowledge can only help you to be ready and prepared when it is needed. Only
this week a kind friend gave me a book about Prince Leopold, son of Queen
Victoria. In this book they went into detail from where the hemophilia came,
and also who in later generations may have it. It is not a beat-up just to
sell books. The author, Charlotte Zeepvat, has done several books about
royalty, including one called "The Camera and the Tsars" which has many many
photographs.

I thought that heomphilia (I haven't read the book yet, just looked at the
family trees) was passed on by women, but men suffered. And that men (even
sufferers) did not pass it on. Is that correct? Or are you a carrier? You
don't have to tell me, this is none of my business.

BUT what is my business :-) is family trees. You say you and your husband
have royal ancestors, that makes me very much interested. I am trying on my
website to record as many people as possible with royal ancestors because
that might help others, when they find an ancestor they might be able to
trace further.

Hope you have seen my website http://www.genealogics.org

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wanda Thacker"
To:
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 1:43 PM
Subject: Re: Royal Blinding DNA and hemophilia


This hemophilia in several of the royal families is one of the reasons I
first wondered about DNA research into the DNA of royal families and
genealogy. I found that my husband and I are related to each other as 5th
cousins after we were married for 18 years. We have many royal ancestors
in common. Coincidentally, both my husband and father are hemophiliacs.A
normal PT test range is 11-15. My husbands was around 28. My son is also.
My brother used to wake up in a pool of blood when he cut a new tooth as a
small child.

There are so many advances in genetic research and disease that it is
amazing.

Wanda Thacker

Hovite
wrote: On Dec 16, 4:51 pm, Hickory wrote:

The fact is, I can't
think of a single case, because, as far as I know (and the range of my
knowledge could never begin to encompass the whole of historical
knowledge), no one appears in the historical record in Europe
who was born handicapped and
in the immediate line of succession to a European throne with the one
possible exception (which may be shown to be wrong as I don't clearly
remember the details) of the elder brother of the father of the
present King of Spain Juan Carlos. Even here I might be shown wrong,
but, whatever the reason, he was deemed unsuitable and was required to
give up his rights to the Spanish throne.

Alfonso XIII of Spain had four sons:
1. Alfonso, a haemophilic, renpounced
2. Jaime, deaf and dumb, renounced
3. Jaun, father of the prsent king
4. Gonzalo, a haemophilic

Another very recent example
of some form of handicap among a royal child, but one which was not
directly connected with succession issues was that of a younger son of
George V and Queen Mary (Prince John?). I once read that his parents
kept him away from the public eye very much on purpose and that he
died quite young.

Prince John certainly died young. Whether he was really "kept him away
from the public eye" is less clear.

Consider also Bavaria (the possibly mad Ludwig II and his certainly
mad brother Otto), the haemophilic son of Nicholas II of Russia, and
the children of Robert, Duke of Parma; also Alexander, Prince of Lippe
(Lippe was ruled by regents during his reign).


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Dora Smith

Re: DNA

Legg inn av Dora Smith » 21. desember 2007 kl. 6.16

Loss of titles? LOL! Titles are more than a matter of the DNA, folks, or
England would be restored to the Catholic succession.

Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, TX
[email protected]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wanda Thacker" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 7:59 PM
Subject: Re: DNA


Therein lies the problem. I suspect legal councilors have advised some of
the European Royalty not to have DNA testing done, due to the possible
loss of titles. Before DNA a child born during a marriage was legally the
father's, at least for commoners. If that were true for royalty, I believe
they would have a legal battle with DNA.

Wanda Thacker



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Gjest

Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA

Legg inn av Gjest » 21. desember 2007 kl. 8.11

On Dec 20, 6:39 pm, CE Wood <[email protected]> wrote:
There are genealogies that say Merfyn Frych was the 17th great-
grandfather of Henry Tudor VII, King of England, just as they say
Ednyfed Fycahn was Henry's 6th great-grandfather. Is this not so?

The only ones I find do not trace through the male line, but rather
via the wife of Ednyfed. If you have a male-line descent, I would be
curious to see it.

taf

Gjest

Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA

Legg inn av Gjest » 21. desember 2007 kl. 8.15

On Dec 20, 8:19 pm, "Dora Smith" <[email protected]> wrote:
From Sir Griffith Rice and Sir Rhys Ap Thomas, through Somebody Tewdwr, to
Merfvyn Frych, is what I found. Henry Tudor was a cousin.

As much as I dig, I can't find anything which suggests either a male-
line descent from Merfyn nor kinship with Henry Tudor. The accouns i
see trace the family to a certain Elidir Ddu, and from there a lot of
iffy material claiming descent from Urien of Rheged.

I should add that I didn't quite have the Tudor descent right.
Ednyfed appears in a contemporary pedigree, from the late 13th
century, which traces him ten generations back to a Marchudd, the
eponymous ancestor of his clan, and then claims a relationship to two
Strathclyde saints and a connection to a Strathclyde warrior
associated with the Gododdin epic. I would not argue that this
pedigree is likely accurate that far back, but they clearly were not,
in the late 13th century, claiming royal derivation.

taf

Hickory

Re: Royal Blinding

Legg inn av Hickory » 21. desember 2007 kl. 12.40

Just a very general comment about your latest posts. I was intrigued
by your reference to Biblical passage. Your obvious knowledge of the
Bible will be a tremendous plus in understanding the mindset of the
ordinary person living in medieval European societies. Pure
scholarship is important, as is proper methodology, but both
ultimately fail without an approximate understanding of what people
thought and why. It is admirable that you are making that attempt and
I think any research you might make in the future will be rewarded, as
long, of course, you keep a close eye out for proper sources of
information and legitimate methods of interpretation.

R C

Re: Giving Constantia Ernle a Royal Ascent: and now her desc

Legg inn av R C » 21. desember 2007 kl. 15.22

Further to what happened on the list back in September 2007, I can add that
Leo already has some of Constantia Ernle, Lady Dupplin's earlier Ernle
ancestors in his database, though they are not yet joined up to her
patrilineal great-grandfather, who was not simply John Ernle, of Whetham,
but actually the subject of a Dictionary of National Biography entry since
he was Chancellor of the Exchequer to James II and Charles II.



Here is an outline of Constantia's ancestry from my database (since I am
collecting all instances of the surname Ernle and all variants in an effort
to sort out the pedigree and push it back into the mediaeval period with
greater detail than I have found published).



1. Constantia ERNLE, Viscountess Dupplin, 1717-1753 m. Thomas HAY, later 9th
Earl of Kinnoul 1710-1787



2. John Kyrle ERNLE, Esq., of Whetham, Calne, 1683-1725 (N.B. not
Kyrle-Ernle as in Leo's database)

3. Constantia ROLT ?-1755



4. Sir John ERNLE, Kt, of Burytown aka Bury Blunsdon, Broad Blunsdon, parish
of Highworth, Wilts. 1647-1686

5. Vincentia KYRLE 1651-1683

6. Sir Thomas ROLT, Kt, of Saccomb, Herts.

7. NN



8. The Rt Hon. Sir John ERNLE, Kt, PC, of Whetham, Calne, Wilts.
1619/20-1697 (in widowhood, Sir John married the Dowager Duchess of
Somerset)

9. Susan HOWE

10. Sir John KYRLE, 2nd Bart

11. Rebecca VINCENT

6-15 not followed



16. John ERNLE, Esq., of Whetham 1598/9-1685 (not in genealogics)

17. Philadelphia HOPTON

18. Sir John Grubham HOWE, Kt

19. NN



32. Sir John ERNLE, Kt, of Whetham 1561-1647/8 (not in genealogics )

33. Margaret HAYDOCK ?-1646

34.Sir Arthur HOPTON, Kt, of Wytham, Somerset

35. NN



64. Michael ERNLE, Esq., of Bourton, Bishop's Cannings, Wilts. (ca
1542-1595) (already in genealogics database, but only with his 2nd wife,
Susan Hungerford)

65. Mary FINNAMORE, 1st wife, only child of Roger FINNAMORE, an heiress who
brought Whetham, Calne, Wilts. to the ERNLEs (see History of the PHILLIMORE
family)

66. Thomas HAYDOCK, Esq., of Burytown alias Bury Blunsdon, Broad Blunsdon,
Highworth, Wilts.

67. NN



As for royalism: number 8 above's name was among those men who were to have
been made knight's of the Order of the Royal Oak for their loyalty to the
House of Stuart at the Restoration, but Charles II never got round to
founding the order.



Leo van de Pas has some the earlier ERNLE ancestry of Constantia ERNLE, Lady
Dupplin, in his database through our earlier correspondence via
http://www.genealogics.com <http://www.genealogics.com/> . 64 above's next brother
was my ancestor, Thomas ERNLE, gent., of Brembridge manor, Dilton, Westbury,
Wilts. (ca 1544-1595), about whom I have already posted material in this
forum some years back.



Thanks to the latest edition of the DNB and its article on Sir John ERNLEY
(or ERNLE)(ca 1464/5-1520), Lord Chief Justice of the Court of Common Pleas
(1519-1520), by Christopher Whittick, of the East Sussex Record Office, I am
on firmer ground in stating that the Wiltshire ERNLEs do not stem from the
Chief Justice, but from his elder brother, John ERNLE, Esq., of Fosbury and
Bishop's Cannings, Wilts. (b. ca 1461/2; death date as yet unknown).



Some of the ancestry of Lady Dupplin, derived from Ann DARELL wife of John
ERNLE, of Fosbury, is shared by HRH The Prince of Wales, and is shown in
greater detail in

"The Ancestry of Dorothea Poyntz, Wife of Reverend John Owsley: Generations
1-14" by Ronny Bodine etc., which I believe Leo has on hand, and which I
have only seen via google's snippet view. Among these forebears was Sir
Edmund de CHILDREY, Kt, of Childrey, Berks., who died in 1372, having just
been appointed Lord Chief Justice of the Court of King's Bench. Only his
name appears on genealogics as Edmund CHELREY, another variant of the name.



John ERNLE, of Fosbury, with whom genealogics starts the ERNLE pedigree, was
the son of John ERNLE, Esq., of Sidlesham and Earnley, Sussex (d. 1465, PCC
will), by his wife Margaret MORLEY, daughter of Nicholas MORLEY, of Morley,
Lancs., by his wife Joan, daughter of John WALEYS or WALLEYS, Esq., of
Glynde Place, Sussex (many generations of whose ancestry in given in the A2A
archival database). Some have it that these MORLEYs were also of royal
descent, but I am not convinced by the evidence I have seen so far.



John ERNLE, of Sidlesham (d. 1465) was the son of John ERNLE, Esq., of
Earnley, Sussex, who married a Wiltshire heiress. It was through the
eventual inheritance of her mother's father's estate many decades after this
marriage, which probably took place in the 1430s, that John ERNLE, of
Fosbury, the grandson, made the shift from Sussex to Wiltshire. The lady in
question was Joan daughter of Simon BEST, Esq., of Cannings, Wilts., by his
wife, Agnes, daughter and eventual heiress of her father, John MALWAIN (or
MALWIN etc.) (d. ante 1426), Esq., of Etchilhampton, Wilts., who family held
that manor, if one reads the VCH account, from the 12th century.



Another interesting line of descent is derived from Ann DARELL's parentage.
Her mother was Joan (not Julia as some have it) COLLINGBOURNE, wife of
Constantine DARELL, was the daughter of Robert COLLINGBOURNE, Esq., of Great
Bedwyn, Wilts., whose brother William COLLINGBOURNE, was the author of the
anti-Ricardian bit of doggerel that got him executed in 1484: "The Cat, the
Rat, and Lovel the Dogge, Rule all England under a Hogge". The
COLLINGBOURNEs had been Yorkists but they supported the Princes in the Tower
over Richard III, it seems.



Happy Solstice, Merry Christmas, and Good Yule listers!



Richard Carruthers-Zurowski, M.A. (Oxon.)

Vancouver

British Columbia

CANADA

R C

RE: Giving Constantia Ernle a Royal Ascent: and now her desc

Legg inn av R C » 21. desember 2007 kl. 15.49

8. The Rt Hon. Sir John ERNLE, Kt, PC, of Whetham, Calne, Wilts.
1619/20-1697 (in widowhood, Sir John married the Dowager Duchess of
Somerset)

Oops, sorry, I knew I wanted to check on that. Chancellor of the Exchequer
Sir John ERNLE's 2nd wife was actually the mother of the 5th and 5th Dukes
of Somerset, rather than the dowager duchess. She was wife of Charles
SEYMOUR, 2nd Lord Seymour of Trowbridge. She was the Hon. Elizabeth
ALINGTON, daughter of William, 1st Lord Alington, by his wife, Elizabeth
TOLLEMACHE.

Happy Solstice, Merry Christmas, and Good Yule listers!


Richard Carruthers-Zurowski, M.A. (Oxon.)

Vancouver

British Columbia

CANADA








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M.Sjostrom

Re: AT of early Japanese monarchs

Legg inn av M.Sjostrom » 21. desember 2007 kl. 19.01

my own question was:
"One of perplexing questions (at least to me) is,
whether something more identifying is known with
certainty about parentage of nr 7, princess Kibi-Hime
(or Kibitsu-hime), who is mentioned as one imperial
princess, and should be descendant of the same dynasty
as her husband."

* In that era, that extended family appears to have
sometimes given a grandchild the name of the child's
one grandparent.
Two generations before this princess Kibi(tsu)hime,
was Kitashihime Soga, a concubine of great king
'Kinmei'.
It would not be inconceivable that Kibihime were a
daughter of a child of Kitashihime Soga and 'Kinmei'.
This however is just an educated guess.

* There seems to be some ?old? tradition calling
Kibihime's daughter, the future monarch Takara, as
"granddaughter" of the famed 'Shotoku Taishi',
imperial prince and regent, who introduced a new sort
(Chinese-like, organized kind) of administration to
Japan.
However, chronologically such is impossible: Takara
was born in 594, and 'Shotoku Taishi' in c573. There
is no real possibility that an intervening generation
would fit, making them granddaughter-grandfather.
And as Takara's both parents are known individuals,
'Shotoku Taishi' cannot really be her father either.
'Shotoku Taishi' cannot easily be an uncle or
great-uncle on side of Takara's known father Chinu,
but Kibihime's side is "yet free" (if her parentage is
not defined), allowing such relationship more easily
if the tradition indicating a close kinship with
'Shotoku Taishi' has any worth.
It is not inconceivable, were Kibihime a sister or a
niece of 'Shotoku Taishi'.
By the way, the father of 'Shotoku Taishi' was a son
of Kitashihime Soga and great king 'Kinmei'.

But still, I am looking forward if anyone has
information what primary sources actually say about
parentage of Kibihime.



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CE Wood

Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA

Legg inn av CE Wood » 21. desember 2007 kl. 21.25

Below is what I have from Merfyn Frych to his 9th great-grandaughter,
Gwenlian, who married Ednyfed Fychan, 6th great-grandfather of Henry
VII.

CE Wood

MERFYN Frych, the Freckled, King of Gwynedd is the 17th Great-
Grandfather of HENRY VII, King of England


1.MERFYN Frych, the Freckled, King of Gwynedd (Abt 760 - 844)
+ NEST ferch Cadell of Powys

2.RHODRI Mawr, King of Gwyendd (Abt 789 - 878)
+ ANGHARAD ferch Meurig of Seisyllwg Abt 825 - ?)

3.CADELL ap Rhodri Mawr King of Deheubarth (861 - 910)
+ RHEINGAR (865 - ?)

4.HYWEL Dda ap Cadell, Prince of Deheubarth (Abt 887 - 950)
+ ELEN ferch Llywarch (Abt 893 - 929)

5.OWAIN ap Hywel Dda of Deheubarth King of Glywyssing & Gwent (913 -
988)
+ ANGHARAD ferch Llwylyn (Abt 918 - ?)

6.EINION ab Owain of South Wales (? - 984)

7.CADELL ab Einion of South Wales

8.TEWDWR Mawr

9.RHYS ap Tewdwr Mawr, Prince of South Wales (? - Apr 1093)
+ BEATRICE ferch Rhiwallon of Powys (Abt 1046 - ?)

10.GRUFFYDD ap Rhys Prince of Deheubarth (1090 - 1137)
+ GWENLIAN ferch Gruffydd of Gwynedd (1098 - 1135) Married 1116

11.RHYS ap Gruffydd of South Wales (Abt 1127 - 28 Apr 1197)
+ GWENLLIAN ferch Madog of Powys (Abt 1135 - ?)

12. GWENLLIAN ferch Rhys Princess of South Wales (Abt 1158 - 1236)
+ EDNYFED Fychan ap Cynwrig Lord of Brynffanigl (Abt 1150 - 1246)

EDNYFED Fychan ap Cynwrig Lord of Brynffanigl is the 6th Great-
Grandfather of HENRY VII, King of England

1. EDNYFED Fychan ap Cynwrig Lord of Brynffanigl (Abt 1150 -
1246)
+ GWENLLIAN ferch Rhys Princess of South Wales (Abt 1158 -
1236)

2. GORONWY ap Ednyfed Lord of Trefgastell (Abt 1195 - 1268)
+ MORFYDD ferch Meurig of Gwent (Abt 1199 - ?)

3. TUDOR Hen ap Grononwy Lord of Penmynydd (Abt 1230 - 10 Oct 1311)
+ ANGHARAD ferch Ithel Fychan ap Ithel Gam ap Hen Ithel Gam (Abt 1250
- 1334)

4. GORONWY ap Tudor Lord of Penmynydd (Abt 1275 - 11 Dec 1331)
+ GWERVYL ferch Madog of Hendwr (Abt 1295 - ?)

5. TUDOR Fychan ap Gronowy of Penmynydd (Abt 1320 - 1367)
+ MARARED ferch Thomas of South Wales (Abt 1340 - ?)

6. MAREDUDD ap Tudor (Abt 1365 - 1419)
+ MARGRED Vychan ferch Dafydd of Anglesey (Abt 1370 - 1428)

7. Sir OWAIN ap Maredudd ap Tudor (1397 - 02 Feb 1461)
+ CATHERINE de Valois Princesse de France (27 Oct 1401 - 03 Jan
1436-1437) Married 1428

8. EDMUND Tudor Earl of Richmond (1430 - 03 Nov 1456)
+ MARGARET Beaufort Countess of Richmond (31 May 1443 - 29 Jun 1509)
Married 01 Nov 1455

9. HENRY VII, King of England (28 Jan 1456-1457 - 22 Apr 1509)


On Dec 20, 8:19 pm, "Dora Smith" <[email protected]> wrote:
From Sir Griffith Rice and Sir Rhys Ap Thomas, through Somebody Tewdwr, to
Merfvyn Frych, is what I found. Henry Tudor was a cousin.

--
Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, TX
[email protected]

[email protected]> wrote in message

news:858fa8b5-5915-4456-8b0d-d9f264f5b7e8@b40g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

On Dec 20, 4:40 pm, "Dora Smith" <[email protected]> wrote:
Apparently a single 19th century Rice genealogist speculated all over the
place that Edmund Rice was descended from Sir Griffith Rice or Sir Ryhs
Ap
Thomas, and cited whatsit where baronial lines are cited which doesn't
back
it up. I find Sir Griffith Rice to be the grandson of Sir Rhys Ap
Thomas,
a cousin of Henry Tudor who became prominent in the early Tudor dynasty.
The Angevin link is maternal line. The paternal line traces to Merfin
Frych, a Welsh baron, from either the Isle of Man or the Firth of Forth,
who
married well and founded a royal dynasty.

Do you mean a male-line relative of Henry Tudor? If so, then Merfyn
Fyrch is not a male-line ancestor. The founder of the family's
prominence was a certain Ednyfed Fychan. It has been suggested that
the family migrated down from the Firth of Forth area of the Gododdin,
but this migration predated the Viking era.

taf

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wjhonson

Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA

Legg inn av wjhonson » 21. desember 2007 kl. 22.05

Comments interleaved below.

On Dec 21, 12:22 pm, CE Wood <[email protected]> wrote:
Below is what I have from Merfyn Frych to his 9th great-grandaughter,
Gwenlian, who married Ednyfed Fychan, 6th great-grandfather of Henry
VII.

CE Wood

MERFYN Frych, the Freckled, King of Gwynedd is the 17th Great-
Grandfather of HENRY VII, King of England

1.MERFYN Frych, the Freckled, King of Gwynedd (Abt 760 - 844)
+ NEST ferch Cadell of Powys

I know of no source purporting to give any indication at all of when
Merfyn was born, even to within 20 years either side. We know he
ruled from 825. IF we are prepared to *assume* (sources vary) that
Esyllt was his mother, and not his wife as some sources say, than
Merfyn must have been born sometime between 770 and 805 as his *own
grandfather* died in 816 *in battle*. Note that a 90 year old man
generally doesn't die in battle, and I'm not prepared to make an
exception in this case. I don't know what source is claiming a Nest
ferch Cadell for his wife but the sources on this point are most
likely very thin. Regardless, making her the mother of Rhodri Mawr is
probably speculation, if not I'd like to know who does this.

2.RHODRI Mawr, King of Gwyendd (Abt 789 - 878)
+ ANGHARAD ferch Meurig of Seisyllwg Abt 825 - ?)


Rhodri was certainly born before 844 when his own father is known to
have died, but to assign him a birthyear of abt 789 is not based on
any reputable source. The DNB is very circumspect about speculation
on his early life, due to the lack of sources. What source gives this
parentage to Angharad?

3.CADELL ap Rhodri Mawr King of Deheubarth (861 - 910)
+ RHEINGAR (865 - ?)

Cadell's birthyear is not known even to within 20 years either side.
Evidently most if not all the detailed accounts of him are centuries
later. What sources gives a name to his wife?

4.HYWEL Dda ap Cadell, Prince of Deheubarth (Abt 887 - 950)
+ ELEN ferch Llywarch (Abt 893 - 929)


The birthyear of Hywel is not known even within 20 years. Hywel died
beteen 948 and 950. Elen's birthyear is not known. She certainly
didn't die in one *purported or assumed* year in which her own father
died, but you can see how this error appeared. Her father's deathyear
is variously given as 893 or 903/4. He was Llywarch, King (or Ruler)
of Dyfed (supposedly).


5.OWAIN ap Hywel Dda of Deheubarth King of Glywyssing & Gwent (913 -
988)
+ ANGHARAD ferch Llwylyn (Abt 918 - ?)


Owain's birthyear is unknown. He died "about 987" but this is fuzzy,
not certain. I don't know what source is giving his wife's name here,
but her birthyear is again unknown.

6.EINION ab Owain of South Wales (? - 984)


Yes Einion (or Einon) is known to have d.v.p. in 984

7.CADELL ab Einion of South Wales

8.TEWDWR Mawr

9.RHYS ap Tewdwr Mawr, Prince of South Wales (? - Apr 1093)
+ BEATRICE ferch Rhiwallon of Powys (Abt 1046 - ?)


Seems a bit odd to put a name like Beatrice into a Welsh mouth. I
could be mistaken there, but I have her name as Gwladus verch
Rhiwallon
(cite http://www.mimas.ac.uk/~zzalsaw2/genealogies/powys.html)

10.GRUFFYDD ap Rhys Prince of Deheubarth (1090 - 1137)
+ GWENLIAN ferch Gruffydd of Gwynedd (1098 - 1135) Married 1116


The birthyear of Gruffydd is speculation, as is the birthyear of
Gwenllian, as is I believe their marriage year.

11.RHYS ap Gruffydd of South Wales (Abt 1127 - 28 Apr 1197)
+ GWENLLIAN ferch Madog of Powys (Abt 1135 - ?)


It would be nice if we actually had these this boiled down, but again
these birthyears are not based on anything reliable, IMHO.

12. GWENLLIAN ferch Rhys Princess of South Wales (Abt 1158 - 1236)
+ EDNYFED Fychan ap Cynwrig Lord of Brynffanigl (Abt 1150 - 1246)


Same comment on the birthyears. I will however allow that they were
born in the 12th century ;) so there's a bone for ya!

EDNYFED Fychan ap Cynwrig Lord of Brynffanigl is the 6th Great-
Grandfather of HENRY VII, King of England

1. EDNYFED Fychan ap Cynwrig Lord of Brynffanigl (Abt 1150 -
1246)
+  GWENLLIAN ferch Rhys Princess of South Wales (Abt 1158 -
1236)

2. GORONWY ap Ednyfed Lord of Trefgastell (Abt 1195 - 1268)
+  MORFYDD ferch Meurig of Gwent  (Abt 1199 - ?)

3.  TUDOR Hen ap Grononwy Lord of Penmynydd (Abt 1230 - 10 Oct 1311)
+  ANGHARAD ferch Ithel Fychan ap Ithel Gam ap Hen Ithel Gam (Abt 1250
- 1334)


The connection here, from 1-3 is speculation.

4. GORONWY ap Tudor Lord of Penmynydd (Abt 1275 - 11 Dec 1331)
+  GWERVYL ferch Madog of Hendwr (Abt 1295 - ?)

5. TUDOR Fychan ap Gronowy of Penmynydd  (Abt 1320 - 1367)
+  MARARED ferch Thomas of South Wales (Abt 1340 - ?)


His wife is known to have the name Marared (or Margaret) but her
parentage AFAIK is unknown.

6. MAREDUDD ap Tudor (Abt 1365 - 1419)
+  MARGRED Vychan ferch Dafydd of Anglesey (Abt 1370 - 1428)


What sources gives this wife/mother ?

7. Sir OWAIN ap Maredudd ap Tudor (1397 - 02 Feb 1461)
+  CATHERINE de Valois Princesse de France (27 Oct 1401 - 03 Jan
1436-1437) Married 1428


I don't know that we have anything useful on when Owen was born.
What ?

8. EDMUND Tudor Earl of Richmond (1430 - 03 Nov 1456)
+  MARGARET Beaufort Countess of Richmond (31 May 1443 - 29 Jun 1509)
Married 01 Nov 1455

9. HENRY VII, King of England (28 Jan 1456-1457 - 22 Apr 1509)

Will Johnson

Joan Richardson

Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA

Legg inn av Joan Richardson » 21. desember 2007 kl. 22.06

On Dec 21, 1:22 pm, CE Wood <[email protected]> wrote:
<
< 7. Sir OWAIN ap Maredudd ap Tudor (1397 - 02 Feb 1461)
< + CATHERINE de Valois Princesse de France (27 Oct 1401 - 03 Jan
< 1436-1437) Married 1428

I don't believe Owen Tudor (otherwise known as Owen ap Meridith ap
Tudor) was ever knighted. As far as I know, he was just an esquire.
Here's one late date Welsh pedigree, for example, that styles him an
esquire:

Dwnn, Heraldic Vis. of Wales 2 (1846): 108 (Tudor pedigree: "Owen
Tudyr Esqe = Catrin unig aeres Charles brenin Fraingke.").

The Tudor historian, Polydore Vergil, says only that he was a
"gentleman of Wales":

"... About that time also dyed Katherine, king Henryes mother, who was
interred at Westminster, on the sepelchre of her predecessors. This
woman, after the death of her husband, king Henry the Fifth, being but
yonge in yeres, and thereby of lesse discretion to judge what was
decent for her estate, married one Owen Tyder, a gentleman of
Wales, ...". [Reference: Ellis, Three Books of Polydore Vergil's
English Hist. (Camden Soc. 29) (1844): 61].

I don't believe Owen Tudor is called a knight in his biography in
either Dictionary of National Biography, 19 (1909): 1217-1218, or in
Dictionary of Welsh Biography (1959): 693-694. Here is the weblink
for Owen Tudor's DNB biography:

http://books.google.com/books?id=xicJAA ... #PPA290,M1

All the same, if you have contemporary documents which show that Owen
Tudor was knighted, please cite them and provide your source.

As for Owen Tudor's wife, who was formerly the wife of King Henry V of
England, she was known to contemporaries in England as Katherine of
France, not Catherine de Valois. The spelling of Catherine with a "C"
didn't even emerge until around 1450, which is after Queen Katherine
was dead. Katherine with a "K" (and its variant forms) remained the
preferred spelling until at least the mid-1500's. By 1630, however,
you find women called both Katherine and Catherine in records in their
lifetime. At that point the spellings were basically interchangeable.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

wjhonson

Re: Giving Constantia Ernle a Royal Ascent: and now her desc

Legg inn av wjhonson » 21. desember 2007 kl. 22.10

On Dec 21, 6:22 am, "R C" <[email protected]> wrote:
1. Constantia ERNLE, Viscountess Dupplin, 1717-1753 m. Thomas HAY, later 9th
Earl of Kinnoul 1710-1787

2. John Kyrle ERNLE, Esq., of Whetham, Calne, 1683-1725 (N.B. not
Kyrle-Ernle as in Leo's database)


Although some source might state he was born in 1683, this is an
approximation most likely based on some statement of his age later.

John Kyrle Ernle was Baptised 10 May 1684 at Much Marcle, so he was
born in 1684.

Will Johnson

Douglas Richardson

Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 21. desember 2007 kl. 22.16

On Dec 21, 2:00 pm, Joan Richardson <[email protected]>
wrote:

I just noticed that my previous message was posted under my daughter,
Joan's Google account, and displays her name as the author. The
previous post was made by your's truly, not Joan Richardson.

This happened once before when I inadvertedly posted using my
daughter, Mary Richardson's Google account. Some of the nasty folks
here on the newsgroup thought it was a hoot when they noticed that
Mary's account had previously posted messages to a knitting group.
They thought I was the knitter. Well, for the record, I don't knit,
and my name isn't Mary Richardson. But it was worth a good laugh.

One other thing: If you read this message backwards, it will say "Paul
is dead, Paul is dead, Paul is dead."

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

wjhonson

Re: Giving Constantia Ernle a Royal Ascent: and now her desc

Legg inn av wjhonson » 21. desember 2007 kl. 22.25

On Dec 21, 6:22 am, "R C" <[email protected]> wrote:
1. Constantia ERNLE, Viscountess Dupplin, 1717-1753 m. Thomas HAY, later 9th
Earl of Kinnoul 1710-1787

2. John Kyrle ERNLE, Esq., of Whetham, Calne, 1683-1725 (N.B. not
Kyrle-Ernle as in Leo's database)

3. Constantia ROLT ?-1755

4. Sir John ERNLE, Kt, of Burytown aka Bury Blunsdon, Broad Blunsdon, parish
of Highworth, Wilts. 1647-1686

5. Vincentia KYRLE 1651-1683


Constantia Rolt is known to have been born "abt 1687" "only daughter"
Also Sir John Ernle d.v.p.
Also Vincentia Kyrle was "eldest daughter and co-heiress of her
father"

8. The Rt Hon. Sir John ERNLE, Kt, PC, of Whetham, Calne, Wilts.
1619/20-1697 (in widowhood, Sir John married the Dowager Duchess of
Somerset)

9. Susan HOWE

I suspect this attribute of Susan as a HOWE. She is also given as
Susan Grubham, daughter of Sir John Grubham. Although as you state,
currently, her dates are not known, it *is* known that their marriage
settlement is dated 1 Mar 1646. Possibly some gentle reader has
details on the *life* of Sir John Grubham that can fill in a possible
range of dates.

16. John ERNLE, Esq., of Whetham 1598/9-1685 (not in genealogics)

17. Philadelphia HOPTON

John Ernle was baptised at Calne on 18 Jan 1598, it is not *certain*
but only a possibility that he is *that* John Ernle who was buried in
1684.

Although as you state, we do not currently have good dates for the
life of Philadelphia Hopton, we *do* know that her father Sir Arthur
Hopton was born exactly between 1551 and 1560 and that his marriage to
Rachel Hall, her mother was "about 22 Mar 1566", so that gives us a
minimus.

The marriage contract of Philadelphia Hopton to John Ernle is dated 21
May 1616.

34.Sir Arthur HOPTON, Kt, of Wytham, Somerset

35. NN

Sir Arthur Hopton as I've said was born between 1551 and 1560, he was
the eldest son of Sir Owen Hopton by his wife Anne Itchingham and by
this route ascends in 14 steps to the Scottish throne. Sir Arthur
would have a shorter ascent, to England, if Owen Hopton's mother Anne
Owen's own mother were more clear. David Owen married three times and
which wife was Anne's mother is unclear to me.

Sir Artur Hopton married Rachel Hall his only known wife abt 22 Mar
1566. She was the daughter of Edmund Hall of Gretford, co Lincoln (d
1592) by his wife Anne Willoughby (bur 1586), both of whom have an
ascent to the English throne in 8 steps. Rachel (Hall) Hopton died in
1629, they had at least or exactly seven children. Sir Arthur Hopton
died 20 Nov 1607 in Somersetshire.

wjhonson

Re: Giving Constantia Ernle a Royal Ascent: and now her desc

Legg inn av wjhonson » 21. desember 2007 kl. 22.30

On Dec 21, 1:24 pm, wjhonson <[email protected]> wrote:
8. The Rt Hon. Sir John ERNLE, Kt, PC, of Whetham, Calne, Wilts.
1619/20-1697 (in widowhood, Sir John married the Dowager Duchess of
Somerset)

9. Susan HOWE

I suspect this attribute of Susan as a HOWE.  She is also given as
Susan Grubham, daughter of Sir John Grubham.  Although as you state,
currently, her dates are not known, it *is* known  that their marriage
settlement is dated 1 Mar 1646.  Possibly some gentle reader has
details on the *life* of Sir John Grubham that can fill in a possible
range of dates.


Well I put my foot in it.
See
http://books.google.com/books?id=CQMIAA ... A74-IA2,M1

NOTE that clever line-break where it says "Sir John Grubham...."
and then on the *next* line says "Howe"

They're all out to get me I swear.

Will Johnson

wjhonson

Re: Giving Constantia Ernle a Royal Ascent: and now her desc

Legg inn av wjhonson » 21. desember 2007 kl. 22.36

Checking my database I note a ... bizarre connection that I have to
now go investigate for a while.

I have a "Scrope Howe" 1st Viscount Howe who married Juliana Alington
(baptized 1665 at Horseheath). Scrope born Nov 1648.

OK

But I also have that John Ernle (buried 1697), after Susan Grubham
Howe died married Anne Elizabeth Alington in 1672

Who just happens to be Juliana's aunt.

What say you that these two Howe's are related to each other also?

Will Johnson

wjhonson

Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA

Legg inn av wjhonson » 21. desember 2007 kl. 22.40

On Dec 21, 1:00 pm, Joan Richardson <[email protected]>
wrote:
As for Owen Tudor's wife, who was formerly the wife of King Henry V of
England, she was known to contemporaries in England as Katherine of
France, not Catherine de Valois.  The spelling of Catherine with a "C"
didn't even emerge until around 1450, which is after Queen Katherine
was dead.  Katherine with a "K" (and its variant forms) remained the
preferred spelling until at least the mid-1500's.  By 1630, however,
you find women called both Katherine and Catherine in records in their
lifetime.  At that point the spellings were basically interchangeable.

That's quite silly!
All right thinking people know that the introduction of Catherine with
a "C" started exactly in 1456 when Fludorius the Monk published his
massive tome "Baby names of the rich and powerful".

Edmund Tudor was so incensed at the presumption that he had an
apoplectic fit and died, his last words were "its Katherine with a K
not Catherine with a C!"

Will Johnson

Douglas Richardson

Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 21. desember 2007 kl. 23.11

Katherine, wife of Owen Tudor, was known to contemporaries in England
as Katherine of France, not Catherine de Valois.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Gjest

Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA

Legg inn av Gjest » 21. desember 2007 kl. 23.35

[lame crossposting removed]

On Dec 21, 1:00 pm, Joan Richardson <[email protected]>
wrote:

As for Owen Tudor's wife, who was formerly the wife of King Henry V of
England, she was known to contemporaries in England as Katherine of
France, not Catherine de Valois.

William the Conqueror was not known to his contemporaries as
'William', but that doesn't stop you from using the form regularly.

Still making it up as you go along, then lecturing others for their
failure to obey your 'rules'.

taf

R C

RE: Giving Constantia Ernle a Royal Ascent: and now her desc

Legg inn av R C » 21. desember 2007 kl. 23.35

My source gives the baptismal date on which I based his birth as 1683, viz.:

British Isles Vital Records Index, 2nd edn

ERNLE, John Kyrl Christening
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 10 May 1683
Recorded in: Much Marcle, Herefordshire, England
Father: John ERNLE
Mother: Vincentia
Source: FHL Film 1041613 Dates: 1617 - 1875

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of wjhonson
Sent: 21-Dec-07 1:07 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Giving Constantia Ernle a Royal Ascent: and now her descent
from the Royalist Ernle family of Whetham, Calne, Wilts., etc.

On Dec 21, 6:22 am, "R C" <[email protected]> wrote:
1. Constantia ERNLE, Viscountess Dupplin, 1717-1753 m. Thomas HAY, later
9th
Earl of Kinnoul 1710-1787

2. John Kyrle ERNLE, Esq., of Whetham, Calne, 1683-1725 (N.B. not
Kyrle-Ernle as in Leo's database)


Although some source might state he was born in 1683, this is an
approximation most likely based on some statement of his age later.

John Kyrle Ernle was Baptised 10 May 1684 at Much Marcle, so he was
born in 1684.

Will Johnson

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Gjest

Re: Joyeux Noel et Bonne Année !

Legg inn av Gjest » 21. desember 2007 kl. 23.50

Dear John Ravilous, other posters and lurkers,
Merry
Christmas , Happy Chanukah, have a good Kwanzaa or just a good day. Enjoy,
whatever your holiday preference if any, is,

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA



**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?N ... 0000000004)

Douglas Richardson

Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 22. desember 2007 kl. 0.01

Dear Newagroup ~

Those wishing to read the transcript of a contemporary medieval record
relating to Owen Tudor may do so in the book, Proceedings and
Ordinances of the Privy Council of England, by Sir Harris Nicolas,
volume 5 (1835): xvi-xix, 46-49.

This information may be viewed at the following weblinks:

Title page: http://books.google.com/books?id=_PYKAA ... r=#PPP7,M1
http://books.google.com/books?id=_PYKAA ... =#PPR16,M1
http://books.google.com/books?id=_PYKAA ... A1-PA46,M1

The record itself concerns the arrest of Owen Tudor, following the
death of his wife, Katherine of France. In his notes, Sir Harris
Nicholas provides some interesting historical background regarding the
marriage of Owen and Katherine.

And, yes, Sir Harris calls her Katherine of France, not Catherine de
Valois. In the document itself, she is called "Quene Kat[r]ine" ...
"whom God assoile."

Enjoy.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

CE Wood

Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA

Legg inn av CE Wood » 22. desember 2007 kl. 0.05

I have used various internet sources (I know, I know). The earlier
birth years are from Tim Powys-Lybbe's site; death and other details
from Stewart Baldwin's site, "Llywelyn ap Iorwerth ancestor table."
Later details and descents from Leo's Genealogics and Jim Weber's site
with its copious post-ems by Curt Hofemann which include quotes from
Annales Cambriæ (Rolls Ser.); Brut y Tywysogion (Rolls Ser.); Gwentian
Brut (Camb. Arch. Soc.)] T. F. T.* [Ref: DNB, Editors, Leslie Stephen
& Sidney Lee, MacMillan Co, London & Smith, Elder & Co., NY, 1908,
vol. ii, p. 628, Lloyd, J. E., _A History of Wales_, 1911 (last edn.
1930); Brewer, J. S., Dimock, J. F., and Warner, G. F. (ed.), _Giraldi
Cambrensis Itinerarium_, Rolls Series, 1861-91. T. J. P.* [Ref: The
Dictionary of Welsh Biography Down to 1940, editors, Sir John Edward
Lloyd, R. T. Jenkins, (1959), p.614, among others.

I include questionable marriages as just that. They show up as such
in my program, but not when I hastily regurgitate descents.

All corrections are ALWAYS very much appreciated.

CE Wood




On Dec 21, 1:02 pm, wjhonson <[email protected]> wrote:
Comments interleaved below.

On Dec 21, 12:22 pm, CE Wood <[email protected]> wrote:

Below is what I have from Merfyn Frych to his 9th great-grandaughter,
Gwenlian, who married Ednyfed Fychan, 6th great-grandfather of Henry
VII.

CE Wood

MERFYN Frych, the Freckled, King of Gwynedd is the 17th Great-
Grandfather of HENRY VII, King of England

1.MERFYN Frych, the Freckled, King of Gwynedd (Abt 760 - 844)
+ NEST ferch Cadell of Powys

I know of no source purporting to give any indication at all of when
Merfyn was born, even to within 20 years either side. We know he
ruled from 825. IF we are prepared to *assume* (sources vary) that
Esyllt was his mother, and not his wife as some sources say, than
Merfyn must have been born sometime between 770 and 805 as his *own
grandfather* died in 816 *in battle*. Note that a 90 year old man
generally doesn't die in battle, and I'm not prepared to make an
exception in this case. I don't know what source is claiming a Nest
ferch Cadell for his wife but the sources on this point are most
likely very thin. Regardless, making her the mother of Rhodri Mawr is
probably speculation, if not I'd like to know who does this.

2.RHODRI Mawr, King of Gwyendd (Abt 789 - 878)
+ ANGHARAD ferch Meurig of Seisyllwg Abt 825 - ?)

Rhodri was certainly born before 844 when his own father is known to
have died, but to assign him a birthyear of abt 789 is not based on
any reputable source. The DNB is very circumspect about speculation
on his early life, due to the lack of sources. What source gives this
parentage to Angharad?

3.CADELL ap Rhodri Mawr King of Deheubarth (861 - 910)
+ RHEINGAR (865 - ?)

Cadell's birthyear is not known even to within 20 years either side.
Evidently most if not all the detailed accounts of him are centuries
later. What sources gives a name to his wife?

4.HYWEL Dda ap Cadell, Prince of Deheubarth (Abt 887 - 950)
+ ELEN ferch Llywarch (Abt 893 - 929)

The birthyear of Hywel is not known even within 20 years. Hywel died
beteen 948 and 950. Elen's birthyear is not known. She certainly
didn't die in one *purported or assumed* year in which her own father
died, but you can see how this error appeared. Her father's deathyear
is variously given as 893 or 903/4. He was Llywarch, King (or Ruler)
of Dyfed (supposedly).

5.OWAIN ap Hywel Dda of Deheubarth King of Glywyssing & Gwent (913 -
988)
+ ANGHARAD ferch Llwylyn (Abt 918 - ?)

Owain's birthyear is unknown. He died "about 987" but this is fuzzy,
not certain. I don't know what source is giving his wife's name here,
but her birthyear is again unknown.

6.EINION ab Owain of South Wales (? - 984)

Yes Einion (or Einon) is known to have d.v.p. in 984

7.CADELL ab Einion of South Wales

8.TEWDWR Mawr

9.RHYS ap Tewdwr Mawr, Prince of South Wales (? - Apr 1093)
+ BEATRICE ferch Rhiwallon of Powys (Abt 1046 - ?)

Seems a bit odd to put a name like Beatrice into a Welsh mouth. I
could be mistaken there, but I have her name as Gwladus verch
Rhiwallon
(citehttp://www.mimas.ac.uk/~zzalsaw2/ge ... powys.html)

10.GRUFFYDD ap Rhys Prince of Deheubarth (1090 - 1137)
+ GWENLIAN ferch Gruffydd of Gwynedd (1098 - 1135) Married 1116

The birthyear of Gruffydd is speculation, as is the birthyear of
Gwenllian, as is I believe their marriage year.

11.RHYS ap Gruffydd of South Wales (Abt 1127 - 28 Apr 1197)
+ GWENLLIAN ferch Madog of Powys (Abt 1135 - ?)

It would be nice if we actually had these this boiled down, but again
these birthyears are not based on anything reliable, IMHO.

12. GWENLLIAN ferch Rhys Princess of South Wales (Abt 1158 - 1236)
+ EDNYFED Fychan ap Cynwrig Lord of Brynffanigl (Abt 1150 - 1246)

Same comment on the birthyears. I will however allow that they were
born in the 12th century ;) so there's a bone for ya!

EDNYFED Fychan ap Cynwrig Lord of Brynffanigl is the 6th Great-
Grandfather of HENRY VII, King of England

1. EDNYFED Fychan ap Cynwrig Lord of Brynffanigl (Abt 1150 -
1246)
+ GWENLLIAN ferch Rhys Princess of South Wales (Abt 1158 -
1236)

2. GORONWY ap Ednyfed Lord of Trefgastell (Abt 1195 - 1268)
+ MORFYDD ferch Meurig of Gwent (Abt 1199 - ?)

3. TUDOR Hen ap Grononwy Lord of Penmynydd (Abt 1230 - 10 Oct 1311)
+ ANGHARAD ferch Ithel Fychan ap Ithel Gam ap Hen Ithel Gam (Abt 1250
- 1334)

The connection here, from 1-3 is speculation.

4. GORONWY ap Tudor Lord of Penmynydd (Abt 1275 - 11 Dec 1331)
+ GWERVYL ferch Madog of Hendwr (Abt 1295 - ?)

5. TUDOR Fychan ap Gronowy of Penmynydd (Abt 1320 - 1367)
+ MARARED ferch Thomas of South Wales (Abt 1340 - ?)

His wife is known to have the name Marared (or Margaret) but her
parentage AFAIK is unknown.

6. MAREDUDD ap Tudor (Abt 1365 - 1419)
+ MARGRED Vychan ferch Dafydd of Anglesey (Abt 1370 - 1428)

What sources gives this wife/mother ?

7. Sir OWAIN ap Maredudd ap Tudor (1397 - 02 Feb 1461)
+ CATHERINE de Valois Princesse de France (27 Oct 1401 - 03 Jan
1436-1437) Married 1428

I don't know that we have anything useful on when Owen was born.
What ?

8. EDMUND Tudor Earl of Richmond (1430 - 03 Nov 1456)
+ MARGARET Beaufort Countess of Richmond (31 May 1443 - 29 Jun 1509)
Married 01 Nov 1455

9. HENRY VII, King of England (28 Jan 1456-1457 - 22 Apr 1509)

Will Johnson

Douglas Richardson

Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 22. desember 2007 kl. 0.10

On Dec 21, 3:33 pm, [email protected] wrote:
[lame crossposting removed]

On Dec 21, 1:00 pm, Joan Richardson <[email protected]
wrote:

As for Owen Tudor's wife, who was formerly the wife of King Henry V of
England, she was known to contemporaries in England as Katherine of
France, not Catherine de Valois.

< William the Conqueror was not known to his contemporaries as
< 'William', but that doesn't stop you from using the form regularly.
Still making it up as you go along, then lecturing others for their
failure to obey your 'rules'.

<
< taf

Taf ~

I merely observed that "Catherine de Valois" wasn't the form by which
she was known to contemporaries. You may call her "Hey you" if you
like.

If any case, I see you coveniently glided over my other comment about
Owen Tudor not being a knight. Is that because I'm right? Guess
so. Otherwise, you'd be screaming by now.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

wjhonson

Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA

Legg inn av wjhonson » 22. desember 2007 kl. 0.25

On Dec 21, 3:01 pm, CE Wood <[email protected]> wrote:
I have used various internet sources (I know, I know).  The earlier
birth years are from Tim Powys-Lybbe's site; death and other details
from Stewart Baldwin's site, "Llywelyn ap Iorwerth ancestor table."
Later details and descents from Leo's Genealogics and Jim Weber's site
with its copious post-ems by Curt Hofemann which include quotes from
Annales Cambriæ (Rolls Ser.); Brut y Tywysogion (Rolls Ser.); Gwentian
Brut (Camb. Arch. Soc.)] T. F. T.* [Ref: DNB, Editors, Leslie Stephen
& Sidney Lee, MacMillan Co, London & Smith, Elder & Co., NY, 1908,
vol. ii, p. 628, Lloyd, J. E., _A History of Wales_, 1911 (last edn.
1930); Brewer, J. S., Dimock, J. F., and Warner, G. F. (ed.), _Giraldi
Cambrensis Itinerarium_, Rolls Series, 1861-91. T. J. P.* [Ref: The
Dictionary of Welsh Biography Down to 1940, editors, Sir John Edward
Lloyd, R. T. Jenkins, (1959), p.614, among others.

I include questionable marriages as just that.  They show up as such
in my program, but not when I hastily regurgitate descents.

All corrections are ALWAYS very much appreciated.

CE Wood

-----------------
The problem with this appeal to authority is that the individual facts
are not cited and sourced. Jim Weber's site *sans sources* is most
determinably not reputable, at least not for anything which is
questioned. A hodge-podge of sources isn't going to save the
situation, since we cannot check.

ANY site, any... yes any -- which does *not* post its own underlying
sources in such a manner that you can *easily* find the purported fact
without reading the entire blasted book, must be thrown into the dump
pile :)

This is a bold new age where we like to beat people over the head with
clubs and other (mostly) inanimate objects.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA

Legg inn av Gjest » 22. desember 2007 kl. 0.40

On Dec 21, 3:06 pm, Douglas Richardson <[email protected]> wrote:

If any case, I see you coveniently glided over my other comment about
Owen Tudor not being a knight.

You are right that it was convenient to glide over it, seeing as,
frankly, I don't care whether he was knighted or not. It is not a
detail I find the least bit interesting.

Is that because I'm right?

So are you now channeling Mr. Arnold, and suggesting that unless
something is contradicted it is fact? Yawn!

taf

Gjest

Re: AT of early Japanese monarchs

Legg inn av Gjest » 22. desember 2007 kl. 3.20

[email protected]_ (mailto:[email protected]) and other interested parties,
The Asuka
Mura Official Website discusses the burial places of several connections of
and members of the Japanese Imperial Family including Princess Kibihime okimi,
mother of Emperor Kotoku and Empress Kogyoku / Saimei whom it says was a
grandaughter of Emperor Kimmei.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA



**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
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M.Sjostrom

Re: AT of early Japanese monarchs

Legg inn av M.Sjostrom » 22. desember 2007 kl. 3.35

Cummings wrote:
Some years ago I saw something about the
chronology of early Japanese emperors in I think "
The
Guiness Book of World
Records" It claimed the 6th Emperor Ko-an Tenno who
traditionally is given a
reign of 102 years actually reigned for around forty
(ca 120- 180) and that the
founder Jimmu Tenno actualy ruled ca 40 - ca 10 bc.
Jimmu`s immediate successors supposedly ruled
from
father to son thus:
Suisei
Annei
Itoku
Ko-sho
Ko-an
Ko-rei
Ko-gen
Kaikwa
Sujin
Suinin
Keiko
Saimu
Chuai
OjIn (whose mother Empress Jingo had an
impossibly
long pragnancy; ? was
Ojin postumous and Jingo regent until He reached his
majority?)
Nintoku
Richu (eldest son of Nintoku) Note: ruled in 5th
century ad
Hanzei(2nd son of Nintoku)
Ingyo (4th son of Nintoku)
Anko (son of Ingyo)
Yuryaku (brother)
Seinei (son of Yuryaku) given name Shiraka
Kenso (grandson of Richu) given name Woke
Ninken (brother ) given name Oke
Buretsu(son of Ninken, died without heirs)
Keitai married Princess Tashiraka, sister of his
predecessor)
Ankan (son of Keitai, uncertain if Tashiraka was
his mother)
Senka (son of Keitai, uncertain of mother)
Kimmei died 571 (born 509?- died 571) son of
Keitai
by Princess Tashiraka,
ancestor of all future Emperors)
_____________________________________________________________________



This message goes to the heart of what methodology and
proof usually gets required in this group and, imo, in
any proper research of medieval genealogy.
J.W.Cummings really appears to have selected carefully
what he sent, at what stage of the traditional list to
stop. I just wonder why he did not mention anything
about methodological and source quality concerns, as
to that very carefully selected sample from the
'official list'.
Kimmei, or Kinmei, was the first monarch of Japan who
is attested in contemporary documents. All the earlier
ones (= the alleged beings on the above list) are
known basically from non-contemporary material which
is generally of folklore nature, i.e myths and
legends.
Only four persons (three males and one female) in the
list above have there at least some of their
contemporary names mentioned, whereas everyone except
Tashiraga, has identification of the name which has
nothing to do with how the one was known
contemporarily, and everything to do with what name
was concocted to each one by the much later posthumous
practice of naming monarchs. The list is successful in
that regard also: it gives next to nothing
contemporary-identifiable. Which of course is a nice
feature in a otherwise carefully selected list which
has no contemporary archival attestation to begin
with.

A few generations backwards from 'Kinmei' could very
well be accurate enough in genealogical sense. Some of
them can be said to be attested in "near-contemporary"
material, and also, a genealogical memory is usually
believed to stretch a few generations backwards in a
reliable way, procuding a somewhat credible genealogy
- barring motives of deliberate fabrication or
specific easiness of some detail to be remembered
incorrectly.

Usually, monarchs from Jimmu to Chuai (the father
whose son was legendarily born three years after the
father's demise) have been regarded as too mythical to
be taken seriously in any genealogical way. They may,
at worst, be aspects of tribal totems or pantheon of
semi-divines depicting some phenomena, rather than
real human beings. Even if they -with small
likelihood- represent a memory of an once existed
human being, they could be unrelated ones, from tribal
stories of remarkable heroes of the past, and arranged
into a list by some later concoction, becoming thus a
direct dynasty. All those are bets to get dubbed as
"mythical monarchs", without any value for any
genealogy aiming at historical accuracy.

Between on one hand 'Ojin' (and his mother Jingu kogo)
and on the other hand the historical days of 'Kinmei',
legend material bears features that imply a
verisimilitude with possible historical account. They
and their genealogy are based on later chronicles, not
on contemporary material. One would however do better
if one picks from careful sources what these
individuals actually had as their contemporary name,
to have a possibility to identify them from chronicles
and from occasional archaeological finds. 'Ojin' was
rather king Hondawake to his contemporaries. And
'Kinmei' was rather great king Amehara Oshiharaki
Hironiwa. In between, there are the
chronicle-mentioned kings Shiraga, Woke, Oyoke, and
empress Tashiraga, those names being presumably
identifiable to their contemporaries.
This bunch of monarchs are prone to the sin of
folklore in genealogical regard: their genealogy may
be twisted by later chronicle compilers to suit
legitimacy values of the rulers of the later
'twist-doing' era. This concern renders really grave
doubt to those points of male-line connections, a
ruler being third or fifth generation descendnt in
male line of an earlier ruler, the males in between
being non-descript ones (just a list of begots and
begats) even in the words of the chronicle which
concocted those lineages.

J.W.Cummings has succeeded to give a list of those
Emperors of Japan (from the first to the twenty-ninth)
who actually, in light of historical knowledge, were
not emperors, not ruled over all or even most of
Japan, and very likely were not contemporarily
perceived in all cases as successors of each other (=
a consistent list), were generally not known with
those names in their own era, and none of them except
the twenty-ninth, is attested in any contemporary
document. Instead, they are such, out of whom a later
concocter has created a start for the list.
Really a feat, to have all those features in a "list
of Emperors of Japan".
Reminds me of the wordplay of Voltaire: the Holy Roman
Empire is not holy, not Roman, nor an empire.

The Guinness Book of World Records would do better,
imo, to forget all about the 6th Emperor Ko-an Tenno.
There is no historical record from where anything
detailed can be taken to mean a measurable record.

The 'founder' Jinmu tenno's actual rule is, imho, a
contradiction in terms, it being impossible to prove
he actually existed and had something to do with
actual ruling, not to speak of difficulties in dating
a mythical creature. I am aware that some members of
this scm group get jabbed about not having a life, but
firstly I would like to see how any mythical being
like Jinmu tenno had a life. Any dates for his
so-called life can only be based on
backwards-counting, from earliest historical dates,
using some measure stick for the length of a
generation (of a genealogy known to be mythical and
totally unreliable as to fourteen first entries in the
"genealogy") in amend to mythical counts of years.

Whereas there would be tad more sanity in
reconstruction of a real chronology for rulers
mentioned in the list between Hondawake ('Ojin') and
Amehara Oshiharaki Hironiwa ('Kinmei'). As I mentioned
above, their existence and doings have an appearance
of verisimilitude.

According to the chronicles which are the only sources
about the very existence of that family tie, king
Hondawake (mentioned with the much-later-concocted
name Ojin in the list) was born to his mother Jingu
kogo only three years after the death of her husband,
and Hondawake's mythical father, 'Chuai'. Jingu kogo
was, according to same chronicles, herself descended
from the same dynasty as her mythical husband 'Chuai'.
One can charitably assess that legends used year in
place of "length of one growth period in agriculture"
= 'harvest year', and there being three or more
harvests within one solar year (the mentioned
pregnancy thus taking some seven or eight months). Or,
one can assess that Jingu kogo was sonless, managed to
take over the power in her husband's land (however
small the kingdom was, perhaps one or two provinces)
and had a heir sired by someone else, but presenting
the boy as child of the preceding male ruler. Or one
can surmise the appearance of a mythically born son,
like some other creeds have a boy born of a virgin, a
boy born from a river, a son of some god, etc.

The existence of 'Ankan', 'Senka' and 'Keitai' is
based only on non-contemporary chronicle. The same
chronicle leaves no uncertainty about who was mother
of 'Ankan' and 'Senka' - according to Kojiki chronicle
(a careful person would find the reference in the AT
which I sent) it was lady Meko-no-Iratsume Wohari
(from the dynasty of chieftains in Owari), an earlier
concubine or consort of king Ohoto of Koshi [to much
later world, known by posthumous, concocted name
'Keitai'], herself daughter of lord Kusaka-no-Muraji
Wohari, chieftain in what became Owari.
Thus, any uncertainty as to their mother is a creation
of someone else than the source which is attesting
their very existence. Which uncertainty is uncalled
for, if their very existence is not put under
uncertainty. Be their very existence in doubt, it
would be not that important if there is some same
uncertainty as to their mother.




____________________________________________________________________________________
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M.Sjostrom

Re: Elizabeth Countess Kinski (or Kinsky)

Legg inn av M.Sjostrom » 22. desember 2007 kl. 5.31

1) Is that specific marriage of any high interest?
It looks to me that she had only one surviving child,
count Vilem Leopold Kinski. The said count Vilem:
+1709; m.1679 Františka Božena Rozálie Berková z Dubé
(+19.1.1718), and they appear to have been without
surviving children.
(Perhaps the already mentioned 'Bohemian gotha' would
however know some further descent from the said
Elizabeth - if real people in the present day descend
from her, the matter would be somewhat more
interesting.)

2) I cannot see any attestation of existence of any
daughter of that Elizabeth Killigrew. Named Elisabeth
Kinski or otherwise. Not advisable to create such a
being from hot air. I remind of the being called the
Occam Razor.

3) whatever the provenance of the AT Mr Pokorny
provided, it however is a nice map of layout for
further exploration in England. Our dear
English-families-majoring listmembers (of whom there
certainly is even a surplus, compared with
contributors to genealogies in the rest of the world)
would have a field day to check details and
attestations for those over twenty persons, of whom
they know exceptionally much: name, and approximate
timing, as well as some idea of possible marriages and
a child.
Usually you do not know much more than "this person
must have had two parents, one male and one female;
the male probably was surnamed same as the child" when
starting to dig ancestry of a person.
so, be happy with this, occasional receival of much
more information to chart the waters which to
investigate.
Will Johnson would much easier get dots and lines
connected with THIS start, if willing to do primary
research, and not emulate the reputedly usual conduct
of some Richardson, waiting for others to provide also
detailed sources.

4) the real interest may lie in collaterals of
countess Elizabeth: a line descending from her some
aunt or suchlike, gets lots of ancestors by this AT.
And for that, the possibility of Henry dying sp or spm
is not that important, if the contents of the AT tally
with english records otherwise.



____________________________________________________________________________________
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know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62s ... o8Wcj9tAcJ

M.Sjostrom

Re: Elizabeth Countess Kinski (or Kinsky)

Legg inn av M.Sjostrom » 22. desember 2007 kl. 5.32

1) Is that specific marriage of any high interest?
It looks to me that she had only one surviving child,
count Vilem Leopold Kinski. The said count Vilem:
+1709; m.1679 Františka Božena Rozálie Berková z Dubé
(+19.1.1718), and they appear to have been without
surviving children.
(Perhaps the already mentioned 'Bohemian gotha' would
however know some further descent from the said
Elizabeth - if real people in the present day descend
from her, the matter would be somewhat more
interesting.)

2) I cannot see any attestation of existence of any
daughter of that Elizabeth Killigrew. Named Elisabeth
Kinski or otherwise. Not advisable to create such a
being from hot air. I remind of the being called the
Occam Razor.

3) whatever the provenance of the AT Mr Pokorny
provided, it however is a nice map of layout for
further exploration in England. Our dear
English-families-majoring listmembers (of whom there
certainly is even a surplus, compared with
contributors to genealogies in the rest of the world)
would have a field day to check details and
attestations for those over twenty persons, of whom
they know exceptionally much: name, and approximate
timing, as well as some idea of possible marriages and
a child.
Usually you do not know much more than "this person
must have had two parents, one male and one female;
the male probably was surnamed same as the child" when
starting to dig ancestry of a person.
so, be happy with this, occasional receival of much
more information to chart the waters which to
investigate.
Will Johnson would much easier get dots and lines
connected with THIS start, if willing to do primary
research, and not emulate the reputedly usual conduct
of some Richardson, waiting for others to provide also
detailed sources.

4) the real interest may lie in collaterals of
countess Elizabeth: a line descending from her some
aunt or suchlike, gets lots of ancestors by this AT.
And for that, the possibility of Henry dying sp or spm
is not that important, if the contents of the AT tally
with english records otherwise.



____________________________________________________________________________________
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M.Sjostrom

Re: Elizabeth Countess Kinski (or Kinsky)

Legg inn av M.Sjostrom » 22. desember 2007 kl. 5.33

1) Is that specific marriage of any high interest?
It looks to me that she had only one surviving child,
count Vilem Leopold Kinski. The said count Vilem:
+1709; m.1679 Františka Božena Rozálie Berková z Dubé
(+19.1.1718), and they appear to have been without
surviving children.
(Perhaps the already mentioned 'Bohemian gotha' would
however know some further descent from the said
Elizabeth - if real people in the present day descend
from her, the matter would be somewhat more
interesting.)

2) I cannot see any attestation of existence of any
daughter of that Elizabeth Killigrew. Named Elisabeth
Kinski or otherwise. Not advisable to create such a
being from hot air. I remind of the being called the
Occam Razor.

3) whatever the provenance of the AT Mr Pokorny
provided, it however is a nice map of layout for
further exploration in England. Our dear
English-families-majoring listmembers (of whom there
certainly is even a surplus, compared with
contributors to genealogies in the rest of the world)
would have a field day to check details and
attestations for those over twenty persons, of whom
they know exceptionally much: name, and approximate
timing, as well as some idea of possible marriages and
a child.
Usually you do not know much more than "this person
must have had two parents, one male and one female;
the male probably was surnamed same as the child" when
starting to dig ancestry of a person.
so, be happy with this, occasional receival of much
more information to chart the waters which to
investigate.
Will Johnson would much easier get dots and lines
connected with THIS start, if willing to do primary
research, and not emulate the reputedly usual conduct
of some Richardson, waiting for others to provide also
detailed sources.

4) the real interest may lie in collaterals of
countess Elizabeth: a line descending from her some
aunt or suchlike, gets lots of ancestors by this AT.
And for that, the possibility of Henry dying sp or spm
is not that important, if the contents of the AT tally
with english records otherwise.




____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

wjhonson

Re: Elizabeth Countess Kinski (or Kinsky)

Legg inn av wjhonson » 22. desember 2007 kl. 5.41

On Dec 21, 8:28 pm, "M.Sjostrom" <[email protected]> wrote:
Usually you do not know much more than "this person
must have had two parents, one male and one female;
the male probably was surnamed same as the child" when
starting to dig ancestry of a person.
so, be happy with this, occasional receival of much
more information to chart the waters which to
investigate.
Will Johnson would much easier get dots and lines
connected with THIS start, if willing to do primary
research, and not emulate the reputedly usual conduct
of some Richardson, waiting for others to provide also
detailed sources.

------------------

Excuse me but I provide plenty of primary sources.
For example on this point, there are TWO not one, but two secondary
sources which disagree.

I think you've missed that point.
One source states that Henry Killigrew died without issue.
The other states that Elizabeth was his daughter.
Both cannot be right, but there's no way to know which one to choose.

You cannot choose one and ignore the other. The chart without known
provenance does not have more weight than the Vis Cornwall, of which
we know the provenance.­

[email protected]

Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA

Legg inn av [email protected] » 22. desember 2007 kl. 5.42

On Dec 21, 5:33 pm, [email protected] wrote:
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 14:33:39 -0800 (PST)
On Dec 21, 1:00 pm, Joan Richardson <[email protected]
wrote:

As for Owen Tudor's wife, who was formerly the wife of King Henry V of
England, she was known to contemporaries in England as Katherine of
France, not Catherine de Valois.

William the Conqueror was not known to his contemporaries as
'William', but that doesn't stop you from using the form regularly.

Still making it up as you go along, then lecturing others for their
failure to obey your 'rules'.

[lame crossposting removed]

taf

Who's lame? Why not say what he was known by if you're so smart?

Hmmm...

If you mean he did not sign himself William I, but signed
with a cross as any illiterate person would?

If you are literate, tell us which is his known name?

William was knighted by Henry at age 15. His name?

Was his style his name? Was he always King of the English?

Was he always The Duke of Normandy?

Was he known as William the Conqueror?

Was he King of England?

As Duke of Normandy, he is known as William II. He was also,
particularly before the conquest, known as William the Bastard. Deny
it?

By his father's will, William succeeded him as Duke of Normandy at age
seven in 1035 and was known as Duke William of Normandy (French:
Guillaume, duc de Normandie; Latin: Guglielmus Dux Normanniae). Deny
it?

Although the south of England submitted quickly to Norman rule,
resistance in the north continued for six more years until 1072.
During the first two years, King William I suffered many revolts
throughout England. If he was not King William I, what was he, if
you're so smart?

You can learn from here,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_the_Conqueror

persiflage, persiflage, persiflage

~Bret, scion of Charle de Magne

http://Back-stabbing Ancestral Descendants ASSoc.genealogy.medieval

The signatures of William I and Matilda are the first two large
crosses on the Accord of Winchester from 1072.

List of changes to the royal style
Official styles of Sovereigns are shown below. Changes that only take
into account the gender of the Sovereign (such as replacing "King"
with "Queen") are not indicated. Heads of state who did not rule as
Kings or as Queens are shown in italics.

Styles of English sovereigns
Period
Style
Used by
1066-1087
King of the English
William I


William I of England
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

William I
King of the English (more...)

The Duke of Normandy in the Bayeux Tapestry
Reign
25 December 1066 - 9 September 1087
Coronation
25 December 1066
Consort
Matilda of Flanders
among others
Issue
Robert III, Duke of Normandy
William II of England
Adela, Countess of Blois
Henry I of England
Detail
Titles
King of the English
Duke of the Normans
Father
Robert the Magnificent
Mother
Herlette of Falaise
Born
10|14-28
Falaise, France
Died
9 September 1087
Convent of St. Gervais, Rouen
Burial
Saint-Étienne de Caen, France
William I of England (c.1028-9 September 1087), known as William the
Conqueror, was Duke of Normandy from 1035 to 1087 and King of England
from 1066.
In support of his claim to the English crown, William invaded England
in 1066, leading an army of Normans to victory over the Anglo-Saxon
forces of Harold Godwinson at the Battle of Hastings, and suppressed
subsequent English revolts in what has become known as the Norman
Conquest.[1]
His reign brought Norman culture to England, which had an enormous
impact on the subsequent course of England in the Middle Ages. In
addition to political changes, his reign also saw changes to English
law, a programme of building and fortification, changes in the English
language, and the introduction of continental European feudalism into
England.
As Duke of Normandy, he is known as William II. He was also,
particularly before the conquest, known as William the Bastard.

By his father's will, William succeeded him as Duke of Normandy at age
seven in 1035 and was known as Duke William of Normandy (French:
Guillaume, duc de Normandie; Latin: Guglielmus Dux Normanniae). By the
rivaling Norman noblemen, who had better claim for duke, the usual
plots to usurp his place cost William, who was supported by King Henry
I of France, three guardians, though not Count Alan of Brittany, who
was a later guardian. William was knighted by Henry at age 15. By the
time he turned 19 he was successfully dealing with threats of
rebellion and invasion. With the assistance of Henry, William finally
secured control of Normandy by defeating rebel Norman barons at Caen
in the Battle of Val-ès-Dunes in 1047, obtaining the Truce of God,
which was backed by the Roman Catholic Church.

March to London
For two weeks, William waited for a formal surrender of the English
throne, but the Witenagemot proclaimed the quite young Edgar Ætheling
instead, without coronation though. Thus, William's next target was
London, approaching proudly through the important territories of Kent,
via Dover and Canterbury, inspiring fear in the English. However, at
London, William's advance was beaten back at London Bridge, and he
decided to march westward and to storm London from the northwest.
After receiving continental reinforcements, William crossed the Thames
at Wallingford, and there he forced the surrender of Archbishop
Stigand (one of Edgar's lead supporters), in early December. William
reached Berkhamsted a few days later where Ætheling relinquished the
English crown personally and the exhausted Saxon noblemen of England
surrendered definitively. Although William was acclaimed then as
English King, he requested a coronation in London. As William I, he
was formally crowned on Christmas day 1066, in Westminster Abbey, by
Archbishop Aldred.[4]


English resistance
Although the south of England submitted quickly to Norman rule,
resistance in the north continued for six more years until 1072.
During the first two years, King William I suffered many revolts
throughout England (Dover, western Mercia, Wales, Exeter). Also, in
1068, Harold's illegitimate sons attempted an invasion of the
southwestern peninsula, but William defeated them.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesday_Book

A line drawing entitled 'Domesday Book' from Andrew Williams's
Historic Byways and Highways of Old England.
Domesday Book (also known as Domesday, or Book of Winchester) was the
record of the great survey of England completed in 1086, executed for
William I of England. The survey was similar to a census by a
government of today. William needed information about the country he
had just conquered so he could administer it. While spending Christmas
of 1085 in Gloucester, William "had deep speech with his counsellors
and sent men all over England to each shire ... to find out ... what
or how much each landholder had in land and livestock, and what it was
worth." (Anglo-Saxon Chronicle)

Dora Smith

Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA

Legg inn av Dora Smith » 22. desember 2007 kl. 14.50

What I'd really like to know, is what was Merfyn's ethnicity?

--
Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, TX
[email protected]
"wjhonson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:b5feb1b9-ab81-44d3-8f22-c843276cb529@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
Comments interleaved below.

On Dec 21, 12:22 pm, CE Wood <[email protected]> wrote:
Below is what I have from Merfyn Frych to his 9th great-grandaughter,
Gwenlian, who married Ednyfed Fychan, 6th great-grandfather of Henry
VII.

CE Wood

MERFYN Frych, the Freckled, King of Gwynedd is the 17th Great-
Grandfather of HENRY VII, King of England

1.MERFYN Frych, the Freckled, King of Gwynedd (Abt 760 - 844)
+ NEST ferch Cadell of Powys

I know of no source purporting to give any indication at all of when
Merfyn was born, even to within 20 years either side. We know he
ruled from 825. IF we are prepared to *assume* (sources vary) that
Esyllt was his mother, and not his wife as some sources say, than
Merfyn must have been born sometime between 770 and 805 as his *own
grandfather* died in 816 *in battle*. Note that a 90 year old man
generally doesn't die in battle, and I'm not prepared to make an
exception in this case. I don't know what source is claiming a Nest
ferch Cadell for his wife but the sources on this point are most
likely very thin. Regardless, making her the mother of Rhodri Mawr is
probably speculation, if not I'd like to know who does this.

2.RHODRI Mawr, King of Gwyendd (Abt 789 - 878)
+ ANGHARAD ferch Meurig of Seisyllwg Abt 825 - ?)


Rhodri was certainly born before 844 when his own father is known to
have died, but to assign him a birthyear of abt 789 is not based on
any reputable source. The DNB is very circumspect about speculation
on his early life, due to the lack of sources. What source gives this
parentage to Angharad?

3.CADELL ap Rhodri Mawr King of Deheubarth (861 - 910)
+ RHEINGAR (865 - ?)

Cadell's birthyear is not known even to within 20 years either side.
Evidently most if not all the detailed accounts of him are centuries
later. What sources gives a name to his wife?

4.HYWEL Dda ap Cadell, Prince of Deheubarth (Abt 887 - 950)
+ ELEN ferch Llywarch (Abt 893 - 929)


The birthyear of Hywel is not known even within 20 years. Hywel died
beteen 948 and 950. Elen's birthyear is not known. She certainly
didn't die in one *purported or assumed* year in which her own father
died, but you can see how this error appeared. Her father's deathyear
is variously given as 893 or 903/4. He was Llywarch, King (or Ruler)
of Dyfed (supposedly).


5.OWAIN ap Hywel Dda of Deheubarth King of Glywyssing & Gwent (913 -
988)
+ ANGHARAD ferch Llwylyn (Abt 918 - ?)


Owain's birthyear is unknown. He died "about 987" but this is fuzzy,
not certain. I don't know what source is giving his wife's name here,
but her birthyear is again unknown.

6.EINION ab Owain of South Wales (? - 984)


Yes Einion (or Einon) is known to have d.v.p. in 984

7.CADELL ab Einion of South Wales

8.TEWDWR Mawr

9.RHYS ap Tewdwr Mawr, Prince of South Wales (? - Apr 1093)
+ BEATRICE ferch Rhiwallon of Powys (Abt 1046 - ?)


Seems a bit odd to put a name like Beatrice into a Welsh mouth. I
could be mistaken there, but I have her name as Gwladus verch
Rhiwallon
(cite http://www.mimas.ac.uk/~zzalsaw2/genealogies/powys.html)

10.GRUFFYDD ap Rhys Prince of Deheubarth (1090 - 1137)
+ GWENLIAN ferch Gruffydd of Gwynedd (1098 - 1135) Married 1116


The birthyear of Gruffydd is speculation, as is the birthyear of
Gwenllian, as is I believe their marriage year.

11.RHYS ap Gruffydd of South Wales (Abt 1127 - 28 Apr 1197)
+ GWENLLIAN ferch Madog of Powys (Abt 1135 - ?)


It would be nice if we actually had these this boiled down, but again
these birthyears are not based on anything reliable, IMHO.

12. GWENLLIAN ferch Rhys Princess of South Wales (Abt 1158 - 1236)
+ EDNYFED Fychan ap Cynwrig Lord of Brynffanigl (Abt 1150 - 1246)


Same comment on the birthyears. I will however allow that they were
born in the 12th century ;) so there's a bone for ya!

EDNYFED Fychan ap Cynwrig Lord of Brynffanigl is the 6th Great-
Grandfather of HENRY VII, King of England

1. EDNYFED Fychan ap Cynwrig Lord of Brynffanigl (Abt 1150 -
1246)
+ GWENLLIAN ferch Rhys Princess of South Wales (Abt 1158 -
1236)

2. GORONWY ap Ednyfed Lord of Trefgastell (Abt 1195 - 1268)
+ MORFYDD ferch Meurig of Gwent (Abt 1199 - ?)

3. TUDOR Hen ap Grononwy Lord of Penmynydd (Abt 1230 - 10 Oct 1311)
+ ANGHARAD ferch Ithel Fychan ap Ithel Gam ap Hen Ithel Gam (Abt 1250
- 1334)


The connection here, from 1-3 is speculation.

4. GORONWY ap Tudor Lord of Penmynydd (Abt 1275 - 11 Dec 1331)
+ GWERVYL ferch Madog of Hendwr (Abt 1295 - ?)

5. TUDOR Fychan ap Gronowy of Penmynydd (Abt 1320 - 1367)
+ MARARED ferch Thomas of South Wales (Abt 1340 - ?)


His wife is known to have the name Marared (or Margaret) but her
parentage AFAIK is unknown.

6. MAREDUDD ap Tudor (Abt 1365 - 1419)
+ MARGRED Vychan ferch Dafydd of Anglesey (Abt 1370 - 1428)


What sources gives this wife/mother ?

7. Sir OWAIN ap Maredudd ap Tudor (1397 - 02 Feb 1461)
+ CATHERINE de Valois Princesse de France (27 Oct 1401 - 03 Jan
1436-1437) Married 1428


I don't know that we have anything useful on when Owen was born.
What ?

8. EDMUND Tudor Earl of Richmond (1430 - 03 Nov 1456)
+ MARGARET Beaufort Countess of Richmond (31 May 1443 - 29 Jun 1509)
Married 01 Nov 1455

9. HENRY VII, King of England (28 Jan 1456-1457 - 22 Apr 1509)

Will Johnson

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Dora Smith

Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA

Legg inn av Dora Smith » 22. desember 2007 kl. 14.52

OK, I'll bite.

What did people call William the Conqueror?

--
Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, TX
[email protected]
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
[lame crossposting removed]

On Dec 21, 1:00 pm, Joan Richardson <[email protected]
wrote:

As for Owen Tudor's wife, who was formerly the wife of King Henry V of
England, she was known to contemporaries in England as Katherine of
France, not Catherine de Valois.

William the Conqueror was not known to his contemporaries as
'William', but that doesn't stop you from using the form regularly.

Still making it up as you go along, then lecturing others for their
failure to obey your 'rules'.

taf

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quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Ken Ozanne

Re: Fixing Google Books

Legg inn av Ken Ozanne » 22. desember 2007 kl. 16.03

From: "R C" <[email protected]
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 06:43:51 -0800
To: "'Ian Goddard'" <[email protected]>, <[email protected]
Subject: RE: Fixing Google Books

In Canada I just get the cover page as the URL is altered automatically. If,
however, I go through http://www.proxify.com, I am able to view a downloadable
book. I wonder if that would work from the UK?

Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ian Goddard
Sent: 22-Dec-07 3:43 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Fixing Google Books

wjhonson wrote:
I have noticed a few times, that even though I will post fully a URL
pointing to a specific page within a "Full View" Google Book, that
when you click on the URL, Google Books for some reason takes you only
to the COVER of the book.

Or whatever stands for the first page. Almost as if it doesn't
understand the "page" number requested.

So you can more fully enjoy my extraordinary postings I shall share a
secret for how to bash Google Books in the head with a small hammer.

Here is an example of a google book link

http://books.google.com/books?id=YhZKAA ... ove&lpg=PP
A782#M1

Pay close attention, as you're reading to the PA number, the dq, and
the ending of the URL.

The *only* things that matter for full view books as the id and the
pg.
Just click on the URL in your address bar and erase everything past
the PA772, its not important, then click GO or SUBMIT or whatever your
browser uses.

Your screen should refresh *only* on that specific page with no words
highlighted.

Sadly, it doesn't work in the UK. Google rewrites the URL posted to
that it only displays the basic summary with a thumbnail of the title.
It doesn't show any part of the full view, not even the cover.


--
Ian

It doesn't work in Australia either. I've tried proxify several times
and it looks as if it is working but winds up producing a 1 pixel GIF file.
I think some Australians have made this work - possibly my problem is in
using a Macintosh.

Advice would be very welcome.

Best,
Ken

R C

RE: Fixing Google Books: Proxify vs Regular Google Book Sear

Legg inn av R C » 22. desember 2007 kl. 16.23

First google's then proxify's results for the same search term (de Chelrey
first page of 23 items found by both searches):

GOOGLE (showing 2 blocked works):

Parochial Topography of the Hundred of Wanting: With Other Miscellaneous ...
- Page 40
by William Nelson Clarke - Wanting Hundred, Berkshire - 1824 - 207 pages
.... Edmund de Chelrey. Thomas de Luda, John de Sunninghill. ... Edmund de
Chelrey,
Thomas de ...
Full view - About this book - Add to my library - More editions

Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public record office ...
by Great Britain Public Record Office - Great Britain - 1907
Page 449
.... Edmund de Chelrey, ...
No preview available - About this book - Add to my library - More editions

Eynsham Cartulary - Page 143
by Eynsham abbey, Herbert Edward Salter - Cartularies - 1908
.... ecclesie de Chelrey, ...
Snippet view - About this book - Add to my library - More editions

Annals of the Church of St. Mary, Shaw-cum-Donnington, in the County of ...
by Walter Money - Berkshire (England) - 1878 - 26 pages
Page 8
Henry de Chelrey was Sheriff of Berks and Oxon, 1336, ...
No preview available - About this book - Add to my library

Elyot/boke Governor V1 - Page xxxii
.... daughter of Sir Thomas de Chelrey, lord of the manor of ...
Limited preview - About this book - Add to my library - More editions

Cartulary of St. Mark's Hospital, Bristol - Page 61
by St. Mark's Hospital, Bristol, England, Charles Derek Ross - Bristol
(England) - 1959 - 326 pages
.... de Chelrey. ...
Snippet view - About this book - Add to my library

The Boke Named The Gouernour - Page xxxii
by Thomas Elyot - Kings and rulers - 1883
She was an heiress, the daughter of Sir Thomas de Chelrey, lord of the manor
of ...
Snippet view - About this book - Add to my library - More editions

Record Series - Page 63
by Yorkshire Archaeological Society, Yorkshire Archaeological and
Topographical Association - Yorkshire (England) - 1911
Alice, wife of John de Chelrey, puts in her place the said John her husband
against Isabel Maunsel in a plea of rent ; and against Benedict de ...
Snippet view - About this book - Add to my library - More editions

Supplementary Series - Page 157
by Selden Society - English literature - 1976
.... but makes an appearance in the YB this term (Mich. 18 Edw. Ill (Rolls
Ser.), 166).
Trin. 28 Edw. Ill Trin. 1354 Edmund de Chelrey John ...
Snippet view - About this book - Add to my library - More editions

The Berkshire Archaeological Journal - Page 100
by Berkshire Archaeological Society - Berkshire (England).
Clarke in the Parochial Topography of the Hundred of Wanting, states that it
is supposed to be intended for Sir Edmund de Chelrey, who died in 1372, ...
Snippet view - About this book - Add to my library - More editions

PROXIFY'S below showing no blocked works:

Parochial Topography of the Hundred of Wanting: With Other Miscellaneous ...
- Page 40
by William Nelson Clarke - Wanting Hundred, Berkshire - 1824 - 207 pages
.... Edmund de Chelrey. Thomas de Luda, John de Sunninghill. ... Edmund de
Chelrey,
Thomas de ...
Full view - About this book - Add to my library - More editions

Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public record office ... -
Page 449
by Great Britain Public Record Office - Great Britain - 1907
.... Edmund de Chelrey, ...
Full view - About this book - Add to my library - More editions

Eynsham Cartulary - Page 143
by Eynsham abbey, Herbert Edward Salter - Cartularies - 1908
.... ecclesie de Chelrey, ...
Full view - About this book - Add to my library - More editions

Annals of the Church of St. Mary, Shaw-cum-Donnington, in the County of ...
- Page 8
by Walter Money - Berkshire (England) - 1878 - 26 pages
Henry de Chelrey was Sheriff of Berks and Oxon, 1336, ...
Full view - About this book - Add to my library

Elyot/boke Governor V1 - Page xxxii
.... daughter of Sir Thomas de Chelrey, lord of the manor of ...
Limited preview - About this book - Add to my library - More editions

Cartulary of St. Mark's Hospital, Bristol - Page 61
by St. Mark's Hospital, Bristol, England, Charles Derek Ross - Bristol
(England) - 1959 - 326 pages
.... de Chelrey. ...
Snippet view - About this book - Add to my library

The Boke Named The Gouernour - Page xxxii
by Thomas Elyot - Kings and rulers - 1883
She was an heiress, the daughter of Sir Thomas de Chelrey, lord of the manor
of ...
Full view - About this book - Add to my library - More editions

Record Series - Page 63
by Yorkshire Archaeological Society, Yorkshire Archaeological and
Topographical Association - Yorkshire (England) - 1911
Alice, wife of John de Chelrey, puts in her place the said John her husband
against Isabel Maunsel in a plea of rent ; and against Benedict de ...
Snippet view - About this book - Add to my library - More editions

Supplementary Series - Page 157
by Selden Society - English literature - 1976
.... but makes an appearance in the YB this term (Mich. 18 Edw. Ill (Rolls
Ser.), 166).
Trin. 28 Edw. Ill Trin. 1354 Edmund de Chelrey John ...
Snippet view - About this book - Add to my library - More editions

The Berkshire Archaeological Journal - Page 100
by Berkshire Archaeological Society - Berkshire (England).
Clarke in the Parochial Topography of the Hundred of Wanting, states that it
is supposed to be intended for Sir Edmund de Chelrey, who died in 1372, ...
Snippet view - About this book - Add to my library - More editions

John Brandon

Re: Fixing Google Books

Legg inn av John Brandon » 22. desember 2007 kl. 17.26

Ian

It doesn't work in Australia either. I've tried proxify several times
and it looks as if it is working but winds up producing a 1 pixel GIF file.
I think some Australians have made this work - possibly my problem is in
using a Macintosh.

Advice would be very welcome.

Best,
Ken

Try using a different browser than you usually use.

Although maybe there is a distinct problem in Australia (as I recall
it was mostly Australians who made an ungodly stink about the Goggle
Books URLs I used to post).

Anyway, "fleas never died" (felice navidad) to all and sundry until
after the Holidays, when I shall return with a list of corrections and
additions to the _Great Migration_ series (another byproduct, along
with Grandma Macy's ancestor table, of straightening and organizing
all the books and stacks of papers in the semi-flooded "junk room").

Hovite

Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA

Legg inn av Hovite » 22. desember 2007 kl. 17.31

On Dec 22, 1:50 pm, "Dora Smith" <[email protected]> wrote:
What I'd really like to know, is what was Merfyn's ethnicity?

British.

Gjest

Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA

Legg inn av Gjest » 22. desember 2007 kl. 20.55

On Dec 22, 8:00 am, Joan Richardson <[email protected]>
wrote:

(wilful and pointless cross-posting removed)

As for Owen Tudor's wife, who was formerly the wife of King Henry V of
England, she was known to contemporaries in England as Katherine of
France, not Catherine de Valois.  The spelling of Catherine with a "C"
didn't even emerge until around 1450, which is after Queen Katherine
was dead.  Katherine with a "K" (and its variant forms) remained the
preferred spelling until at least the mid-1500's.  By 1630, however,
you find women called both Katherine and Catherine in records in their
lifetime.  At that point the spellings were basically interchangeable.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

No references, no websites = ignore.

Douglas Richardson

Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 22. desember 2007 kl. 21.30

On Dec 21, 4:37 pm, [email protected] wrote:

<So are you now channeling Mr. Arnold, and suggesting that unless
< something is contradicted it is fact? Yawn!

Heavens - I don't channel this stuff. Where did you get that idea? I
do original research, post my sources, and, if possible, quote the
original documents. That way the evidence can be clearly seen. I'm
not just giving my opinion.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Gjest

Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA

Legg inn av Gjest » 22. desember 2007 kl. 22.05

On Dec 22, 5:52 am, "Dora Smith" <[email protected]> wrote:
OK, I'll bite.

What did people call William the Conqueror?


While the captions in the Bayeux tapestry are intended to be in Latin,
they display a certain English vernacular character. The Conqueror
appears as Willelm in most cases (along with Willelmi and Willelmus),
while in a few cases Wilgelm appears (remember, 'g' in Anglo-Saxon was
pronounced similar to 'y').

Willelm is also the most common form in the Domesday book.

There are seven pre-Conquest charters in which the name appear (there
was a Bishop William under Edward the C). In four cases the name
appears as Willielm. These are all in Latin, and three are universally
considered forgeries, while the fourth is debated as to authenticity.
The remaining three have Willelm. One is in Latin, and considered
spurious. The other two are in English, one considered authentic, the
other apparently dates to the late 11th century, either forged then or
copied from an authentic original.

That these sources seem in basic agreement points to the form of the
name used in England in the second half of the 11th century being
Willelm.

That being said, the most common English modern form is William and it
would be ridiculous egotistical pedantry to correct someone who uses
William, just because the man himself would not have used this
spelling.

taf

Gjest

Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA

Legg inn av Gjest » 22. desember 2007 kl. 22.11

On Dec 22, 12:29 pm, Douglas Richardson <[email protected]> wrote:
On Dec 21, 4:37 pm, [email protected] wrote:

So are you now channeling Mr. Arnold, and suggesting that unless
something is contradicted it is fact? Yawn!

Heavens - I don't channel this stuff. Where did you get that idea?

From you suggesting that you must be right since what you said had not
been contradicted, the same lame argument he used.

taf

D. Spencer Hines

Re: William I The Conqueror King of England, was Re: Agnate

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 22. desember 2007 kl. 22.43

<G>

DSH

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:4340ba30-7d87-46e2-931a-65dd2c100282@q77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...

From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 20:37:16 -0800 (PST)
References: <s76a7e89.084@CENTRAL_SVR2><mailman.
1000.1198197692.4586.gen-
[email protected]><858fa8b5-5915-4456-8b0d-
[email protected]> <476b3edf
[email protected]><ea2c11a5-1000-4924-
[email protected]><0cae627c-
[email protected]> <99ab07fe-
[email protected]>


On Dec 21, 5:33 pm, [email protected] wrote:
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 14:33:39 -0800 (PST)
On Dec 21, 1:00 pm, Joan Richardson <[email protected]
wrote:

As for Owen Tudor's wife, who was formerly the wife of King Henry V of
England, she was known to contemporaries in England as Katherine of
France, not Catherine de Valois.

William the Conqueror was not known to his contemporaries as
'William', but that doesn't stop you from using the form regularly.

Still making it up as you go along, then lecturing others for their
failure to obey your 'rules'.

[lame crossposting removed]

taf

Who's lame? Why not say what he was known by if you're so smart?

Hmmm...

If you mean he did not sign himself William I, but signed
with a cross as any illiterate person would?

If you are literate, tell us which is his known name?

William was knighted by Henry at age 15. His name?

Was his style his name? Was he always King of the English?

Was he always The Duke of Normandy?

Was he known as William the Conqueror?

Was he King of England?

As Duke of Normandy, he is known as William II. He was also,
particularly before the conquest, known as William the Bastard. Deny
it?

By his father's will, William succeeded him as Duke of Normandy at age
seven in 1035 and was known as Duke William of Normandy (French:
Guillaume, duc de Normandie; Latin: Guglielmus Dux Normanniae). Deny
it?

Although the south of England submitted quickly to Norman rule,
resistance in the north continued for six more years until 1072.
During the first two years, King William I suffered many revolts
throughout England. If he was not King William I, what was he, if
you're so smart?

You can learn from here,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_the_Conqueror

persiflage, persiflage, persiflage

~Bret, scion of Charle de Magne

http://Back-stabbing Ancestral Descendants ASSoc.genealogy.medieval

The signatures of William I and Matilda are the first two large
crosses on the Accord of Winchester from 1072.

List of changes to the royal style
Official styles of Sovereigns are shown below. Changes that only take
into account the gender of the Sovereign (such as replacing "King"
with "Queen") are not indicated. Heads of state who did not rule as
Kings or as Queens are shown in italics.

Styles of English sovereigns
Period
Style
Used by
1066-1087
King of the English
William I


William I of England
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

William I
King of the English (more...)

The Duke of Normandy in the Bayeux Tapestry
Reign
25 December 1066 - 9 September 1087
Coronation
25 December 1066
Consort
Matilda of Flanders
among others
Issue
Robert III, Duke of Normandy
William II of England
Adela, Countess of Blois
Henry I of England
Detail
Titles
King of the English
Duke of the Normans
Father
Robert the Magnificent
Mother
Herlette of Falaise
Born
10|14-28
Falaise, France
Died
9 September 1087
Convent of St. Gervais, Rouen
Burial
Saint-Étienne de Caen, France
William I of England (c.1028-9 September 1087), known as William the
Conqueror, was Duke of Normandy from 1035 to 1087 and King of England
from 1066.
In support of his claim to the English crown, William invaded England
in 1066, leading an army of Normans to victory over the Anglo-Saxon
forces of Harold Godwinson at the Battle of Hastings, and suppressed
subsequent English revolts in what has become known as the Norman
Conquest.[1]
His reign brought Norman culture to England, which had an enormous
impact on the subsequent course of England in the Middle Ages. In
addition to political changes, his reign also saw changes to English
law, a programme of building and fortification, changes in the English
language, and the introduction of continental European feudalism into
England.
As Duke of Normandy, he is known as William II. He was also,
particularly before the conquest, known as William the Bastard.

By his father's will, William succeeded him as Duke of Normandy at age
seven in 1035 and was known as Duke William of Normandy (French:
Guillaume, duc de Normandie; Latin: Guglielmus Dux Normanniae). By the
rivaling Norman noblemen, who had better claim for duke, the usual
plots to usurp his place cost William, who was supported by King Henry
I of France, three guardians, though not Count Alan of Brittany, who
was a later guardian. William was knighted by Henry at age 15. By the
time he turned 19 he was successfully dealing with threats of
rebellion and invasion. With the assistance of Henry, William finally
secured control of Normandy by defeating rebel Norman barons at Caen
in the Battle of Val-ès-Dunes in 1047, obtaining the Truce of God,
which was backed by the Roman Catholic Church.

March to London
For two weeks, William waited for a formal surrender of the English
throne, but the Witenagemot proclaimed the quite young Edgar Ætheling
instead, without coronation though. Thus, William's next target was
London, approaching proudly through the important territories of Kent,
via Dover and Canterbury, inspiring fear in the English. However, at
London, William's advance was beaten back at London Bridge, and he
decided to march westward and to storm London from the northwest.
After receiving continental reinforcements, William crossed the Thames
at Wallingford, and there he forced the surrender of Archbishop
Stigand (one of Edgar's lead supporters), in early December. William
reached Berkhamsted a few days later where Ætheling relinquished the
English crown personally and the exhausted Saxon noblemen of England
surrendered definitively. Although William was acclaimed then as
English King, he requested a coronation in London. As William I, he
was formally crowned on Christmas day 1066, in Westminster Abbey, by
Archbishop Aldred.[4]


English resistance
Although the south of England submitted quickly to Norman rule,
resistance in the north continued for six more years until 1072.
During the first two years, King William I suffered many revolts
throughout England (Dover, western Mercia, Wales, Exeter). Also, in
1068, Harold's illegitimate sons attempted an invasion of the
southwestern peninsula, but William defeated them.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesday_Book

A line drawing entitled 'Domesday Book' from Andrew Williams's
Historic Byways and Highways of Old England.
Domesday Book (also known as Domesday, or Book of Winchester) was the
record of the great survey of England completed in 1086, executed for
William I of England. The survey was similar to a census by a
government of today. William needed information about the country he
had just conquered so he could administer it. While spending Christmas
of 1085 in Gloucester, William "had deep speech with his counsellors
and sent men all over England to each shire ... to find out ... what
or how much each landholder had in land and livestock, and what it was
worth." (Anglo-Saxon Chronicle)





On Dec 22, 3:59 pm, [email protected] wrote:
On Dec 22, 5:52 am, "Dora Smith" <[email protected]> wrote:

OK, I'll bite.

What did people call William the Conqueror?

While the captions in the Bayeux tapestry are intended to be in Latin,
they display a certain English vernacular character. The Conqueror
appears as Willelm in most cases (along with Willelmi and Willelmus),
while in a few cases Wilgelm appears (remember, 'g' in Anglo-Saxon was
pronounced similar to 'y').

Willelm is also the most common form in the Domesday book.

There are seven pre-Conquest charters in which the name appear (there
was a Bishop William under Edward the C). In four cases the name
appears as Willielm. These are all in Latin, and three are universally
considered forgeries, while the fourth is debated as to authenticity.
The remaining three have Willelm. One is in Latin, and considered
spurious. The other two are in English, one considered authentic, the
other apparently dates to the late 11th century, either forged then or
copied from an authentic original.

That these sources seem in basic agreement points to the form of the
name used in England in the second half of the 11th century being
Willelm.

That being said, the most common English modern form is William and it
would be ridiculous egotistical pedantry to correct someone who uses
William, just because the man himself would not have used this
spelling.

taf

persiflage, persiflage, persiflage

he doesn't know, does he? Who does?

~Bret, scion of Charle de Magne

http://Back-stabbing Ancestral Descendants ASSoc.genealogy.medieval

Guy Vincent

RE: Fixing Google Books [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

Legg inn av Guy Vincent » 22. desember 2007 kl. 23.13

Proxify is a reliable proxy server and often recommended here, however I find it doesn't allow downloads (well, not over a certain size anyway).
Proxy.org lists many web based proxy servers (I'm using sureproxy at the moment but have used others) that will allow downloads and at
a speed that doesn't make your pc obsolete before the download is complete. This should solve the problem from anywhere outside the U.S.

Guy Vincent

________________________________

From: [email protected] on behalf of Ken Ozanne
Sent: Sun 23/12/07 1:33 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Fixing Google Books





From: "R C" <[email protected]
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 06:43:51 -0800
To: "'Ian Goddard'" <[email protected]>, <[email protected]
Subject: RE: Fixing Google Books

In Canada I just get the cover page as the URL is altered automatically. If,
however, I go through http://www.proxify.com, I am able to view a downloadable
book. I wonder if that would work from the UK?

Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ian Goddard
Sent: 22-Dec-07 3:43 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Fixing Google Books

wjhonson wrote:
I have noticed a few times, that even though I will post fully a URL
pointing to a specific page within a "Full View" Google Book, that
when you click on the URL, Google Books for some reason takes you only
to the COVER of the book.

Or whatever stands for the first page. Almost as if it doesn't
understand the "page" number requested.

So you can more fully enjoy my extraordinary postings I shall share a
secret for how to bash Google Books in the head with a small hammer.

Here is an example of a google book link

http://books.google.com/books?id=YhZKAA ... ove&lpg=PP
A782#M1

Pay close attention, as you're reading to the PA number, the dq, and
the ending of the URL.

The *only* things that matter for full view books as the id and the
pg.
Just click on the URL in your address bar and erase everything past
the PA772, its not important, then click GO or SUBMIT or whatever your
browser uses.

Your screen should refresh *only* on that specific page with no words
highlighted.

Sadly, it doesn't work in the UK. Google rewrites the URL posted to
that it only displays the basic summary with a thumbnail of the title.
It doesn't show any part of the full view, not even the cover.


--
Ian

It doesn't work in Australia either. I've tried proxify several times
and it looks as if it is working but winds up producing a 1 pixel GIF file.
I think some Australians have made this work - possibly my problem is in
using a Macintosh.

Advice would be very welcome.

Best,
Ken


-------------------------------
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[email protected]

William I The Conqueror King of England, was Re: Agn ate Gât

Legg inn av [email protected] » 22. desember 2007 kl. 23.26

From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 20:37:16 -0800 (PST)
References: <s76a7e89.084@CENTRAL_SVR2><mailman.
1000.1198197692.4586.gen-
[email protected]><858fa8b5-5915-4456-8b0d-
[email protected]> <476b3edf
[email protected]><ea2c11a5-1000-4924-
[email protected]><0cae627c-
[email protected]> <99ab07fe-
[email protected]>


On Dec 21, 5:33 pm, [email protected] wrote:
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 14:33:39 -0800 (PST)
On Dec 21, 1:00 pm, Joan Richardson <[email protected]
wrote:

As for Owen Tudor's wife, who was formerly the wife of King Henry V of
England, she was known to contemporaries in England as Katherine of
France, not Catherine de Valois.

William the Conqueror was not known to his contemporaries as
'William', but that doesn't stop you from using the form regularly.

Still making it up as you go along, then lecturing others for their
failure to obey your 'rules'.

[lame crossposting removed]

taf

Who's lame? Why not say what he was known by if you're so smart?

Hmmm...

If you mean he did not sign himself William I, but signed
with a cross as any illiterate person would?

If you are literate, tell us which is his known name?

William was knighted by Henry at age 15. His name?

Was his style his name? Was he always King of the English?

Was he always The Duke of Normandy?

Was he known as William the Conqueror?

Was he King of England?

As Duke of Normandy, he is known as William II. He was also,
particularly before the conquest, known as William the Bastard. Deny
it?

By his father's will, William succeeded him as Duke of Normandy at age
seven in 1035 and was known as Duke William of Normandy (French:
Guillaume, duc de Normandie; Latin: Guglielmus Dux Normanniae). Deny
it?

Although the south of England submitted quickly to Norman rule,
resistance in the north continued for six more years until 1072.
During the first two years, King William I suffered many revolts
throughout England. If he was not King William I, what was he, if
you're so smart?

You can learn from here,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_the_Conqueror

persiflage, persiflage, persiflage

~Bret, scion of Charle de Magne

http://Back-stabbing Ancestral Descendants ASSoc.genealogy.medieval

The signatures of William I and Matilda are the first two large
crosses on the Accord of Winchester from 1072.

List of changes to the royal style
Official styles of Sovereigns are shown below. Changes that only take
into account the gender of the Sovereign (such as replacing "King"
with "Queen") are not indicated. Heads of state who did not rule as
Kings or as Queens are shown in italics.

Styles of English sovereigns
Period
Style
Used by
1066-1087
King of the English
William I


William I of England
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

William I
King of the English (more...)

The Duke of Normandy in the Bayeux Tapestry
Reign
25 December 1066 - 9 September 1087
Coronation
25 December 1066
Consort
Matilda of Flanders
among others
Issue
Robert III, Duke of Normandy
William II of England
Adela, Countess of Blois
Henry I of England
Detail
Titles
King of the English
Duke of the Normans
Father
Robert the Magnificent
Mother
Herlette of Falaise
Born
10|14-28
Falaise, France
Died
9 September 1087
Convent of St. Gervais, Rouen
Burial
Saint-Étienne de Caen, France
William I of England (c.1028-9 September 1087), known as William the
Conqueror, was Duke of Normandy from 1035 to 1087 and King of England
from 1066.
In support of his claim to the English crown, William invaded England
in 1066, leading an army of Normans to victory over the Anglo-Saxon
forces of Harold Godwinson at the Battle of Hastings, and suppressed
subsequent English revolts in what has become known as the Norman
Conquest.[1]
His reign brought Norman culture to England, which had an enormous
impact on the subsequent course of England in the Middle Ages. In
addition to political changes, his reign also saw changes to English
law, a programme of building and fortification, changes in the English
language, and the introduction of continental European feudalism into
England.
As Duke of Normandy, he is known as William II. He was also,
particularly before the conquest, known as William the Bastard.

By his father's will, William succeeded him as Duke of Normandy at age
seven in 1035 and was known as Duke William of Normandy (French:
Guillaume, duc de Normandie; Latin: Guglielmus Dux Normanniae). By the
rivaling Norman noblemen, who had better claim for duke, the usual
plots to usurp his place cost William, who was supported by King Henry
I of France, three guardians, though not Count Alan of Brittany, who
was a later guardian. William was knighted by Henry at age 15. By the
time he turned 19 he was successfully dealing with threats of
rebellion and invasion. With the assistance of Henry, William finally
secured control of Normandy by defeating rebel Norman barons at Caen
in the Battle of Val-ès-Dunes in 1047, obtaining the Truce of God,
which was backed by the Roman Catholic Church.

March to London
For two weeks, William waited for a formal surrender of the English
throne, but the Witenagemot proclaimed the quite young Edgar Ætheling
instead, without coronation though. Thus, William's next target was
London, approaching proudly through the important territories of Kent,
via Dover and Canterbury, inspiring fear in the English. However, at
London, William's advance was beaten back at London Bridge, and he
decided to march westward and to storm London from the northwest.
After receiving continental reinforcements, William crossed the Thames
at Wallingford, and there he forced the surrender of Archbishop
Stigand (one of Edgar's lead supporters), in early December. William
reached Berkhamsted a few days later where Ætheling relinquished the
English crown personally and the exhausted Saxon noblemen of England
surrendered definitively. Although William was acclaimed then as
English King, he requested a coronation in London. As William I, he
was formally crowned on Christmas day 1066, in Westminster Abbey, by
Archbishop Aldred.[4]


English resistance
Although the south of England submitted quickly to Norman rule,
resistance in the north continued for six more years until 1072.
During the first two years, King William I suffered many revolts
throughout England (Dover, western Mercia, Wales, Exeter). Also, in
1068, Harold's illegitimate sons attempted an invasion of the
southwestern peninsula, but William defeated them.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesday_Book

A line drawing entitled 'Domesday Book' from Andrew Williams's
Historic Byways and Highways of Old England.
Domesday Book (also known as Domesday, or Book of Winchester) was the
record of the great survey of England completed in 1086, executed for
William I of England. The survey was similar to a census by a
government of today. William needed information about the country he
had just conquered so he could administer it. While spending Christmas
of 1085 in Gloucester, William "had deep speech with his counsellors
and sent men all over England to each shire ... to find out ... what
or how much each landholder had in land and livestock, and what it was
worth." (Anglo-Saxon Chronicle)





On Dec 22, 3:59 pm, [email protected] wrote:
On Dec 22, 5:52 am, "Dora Smith" <[email protected]> wrote:

OK, I'll bite.

What did people call William the Conqueror?

While the captions in the Bayeux tapestry are intended to be in Latin,
they display a certain English vernacular character.  The Conqueror
appears as Willelm in most cases (along with Willelmi and Willelmus),
while in a few cases Wilgelm appears (remember, 'g' in Anglo-Saxon was
pronounced similar to 'y').

Willelm is also the most common form in the Domesday book.

There are seven pre-Conquest charters in which the name appear (there
was a Bishop William under Edward the C). In four cases the name
appears as Willielm. These are all in Latin, and three are universally
considered forgeries, while the fourth is debated as to authenticity.
The remaining three have Willelm. One is in Latin, and considered
spurious. The other two are in English, one considered authentic, the
other apparently dates to the late 11th century, either forged then or
copied from an authentic original.

That these sources seem in basic agreement points to the form of the
name used in England in the second half of the 11th century being
Willelm.

That being said, the most common English modern form is William and it
would be ridiculous egotistical pedantry to correct someone who uses
William, just because the man himself would not have used this
spelling.

taf

persiflage, persiflage, persiflage

he doesn't know, does he? Who does?

~Bret, scion of Charle de Magne

http://Back-stabbing Ancestral Descendants ASSoc.genealogy.medieval

Douglas Richardson

Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 23. desember 2007 kl. 0.50

On Dec 22, 2:05 pm, [email protected] wrote:

< From you suggesting that you must be right since what you said had
not
< been contradicted, the same lame argument he used.
<
< taf

You're just making things up as you go along, taf. Stick to the
evidence, cite your sources, and stop the personal attacks on Mr.
Arnold. And, by all means, crosspost if the content demands it.

DR

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 23. desember 2007 kl. 0.54

D'accord.

DSH

"Douglas Richardson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:22199e23-38fc-4b95-82e3-c80f63a2d624@x29g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

On Dec 22, 2:05 pm, [email protected] wrote:

From you suggesting that you must be right since what you said had
not been contradicted, the same lame argument he used.

taf

You're just making things up as you go along, taf. Stick to the
evidence, cite your sources, and stop the personal attacks on Mr.
Arnold. And, by all means, crosspost if the content demands it.

DR

Gjest

Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA

Legg inn av Gjest » 23. desember 2007 kl. 2.15

On Dec 22, 3:48 pm, Douglas Richardson <[email protected]> wrote:
On Dec 22, 2:05 pm, [email protected] wrote:

From you suggesting that you must be right since what you said had
not
been contradicted, the same lame argument he used.

You're just making things up as you go along, taf.

You would like to pretend so, but alas that is not the case, as you
well know. (But maybe if you keep pretending, you will even convince
yourself.)

Douglas Richardson previously wrote:

If any case, I see you coveniently glided over my other comment about
Owen Tudor not being a knight. Is that because I'm right?

This has the clear implication that my failure to contradict your
position bears on the question of its accuracy.

Bill Arnold said:

"Anyone on this forum can make a statement and it is fact until
challenged, . . . "

That would represent Mr. Arnold's position that the lack of a
challenge establishes fact, at least under some conditions.

Thus, both halves of my comparison are substantiated: I am not making
it up - you are simply blowing smoke.

Stick to the
evidence, cite your sources, and stop the personal attacks on Mr.
Arnold.

He said it. You said it. This is just a slimy attempt, by false
accusation, to shift the focus from your ridiculous statement to my
fictional attack. None of these shenanigans of yours will change the
similarity between the two one bit. As to sticking to evidence, Mr.
Pot, you are more than happy pontificate without evidence when it
suits you. This very post of yours was an evidence-free distortion of
reality, and a masked personal attack to boot, so the irony in this
demand is rich, but is of a level of hypocrisy we have come to
expect.

And, by all means, crosspost if the content demands it.

Content is inanimate - it never demands. That voice you hear in your
head telling you "Must Crosspost! Must Crosspost!" is not real: it is
simply your ego projecting. A post is on topic in the newsgroup
(singular) most relevant.

taf

Gjest

Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA

Legg inn av Gjest » 23. desember 2007 kl. 2.30

On Dec 22, 5:50 am, "Dora Smith" <[email protected]> wrote:

What I'd really like to know, is what was Merfyn's ethnicity?


David Thornton in his article on Welsh royal onomastics seemed to view
the Manx version favorably (based on the names appearing in his
purported pedigree), although it was not the focus and not directly
addressed. The conclusions is flawed in so far as the use of Manx
names in his pedigree only shows that the person who concocted the
pedigree thought he was Manx.

taf

Douglas Richardson

Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 23. desember 2007 kl. 2.35

On Dec 22, 6:11 pm, [email protected] wrote:

< Thus, both halves of my comparison are substantiated: I am not
making
< it up - you are simply blowing smoke.

I don't smoke. Sorry.

DR

[email protected]

Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA

Legg inn av [email protected] » 23. desember 2007 kl. 4.50

On Dec 22, 8:11 pm, [email protected] wrote:
On Dec 22, 3:48 pm, Douglas Richardson <[email protected]> wrote:

On Dec 22, 2:05 pm, [email protected] wrote:

From you suggesting that you must be right since what you said had
not
been contradicted, the same lame argument he used.

You're just making things up as you go along, taf.

You would like to pretend so, but alas that is not the case, as you
well know.  (But maybe if you keep pretending, you will even convince
yourself.)

Douglas Richardson previously wrote:
If any case, I see you coveniently glided over my other comment about
Owen Tudor not being a knight.  Is that because I'm right?

This has the clear implication that my failure to contradict your
position bears on the question of its accuracy.

Bill Arnold said:

"Anyone on this forum can make a statement and it is fact until
challenged, . . . "

That would represent Mr. Arnold's position that the lack of a
challenge establishes fact, at least under some conditions.

Thus, both halves of my comparison are substantiated: I am not making
it up - you are simply blowing smoke.

Stick to the
evidence, cite your sources, and stop the personal attacks on Mr.
Arnold.

He said it. You said it. This is just a slimy attempt, by false
accusation, to shift the focus from your ridiculous statement to my
fictional attack. None of these shenanigans of yours will change the
similarity between the two one bit.  As to sticking to evidence, Mr.
Pot, you are more than happy pontificate without evidence when it
suits you. This very post of yours was an evidence-free distortion of
reality, and a masked personal attack to boot, so the irony in this
demand is rich, but is of a level of hypocrisy we have come to
expect.

 And, by all means, crosspost if the content demands it.

Content is inanimate - it never demands.  That voice you hear in your
head telling you "Must Crosspost! Must Crosspost!" is not real: it is
simply your ego projecting. A post is on topic in the newsgroup
(singular) most relevant.

taf


From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?William_I_The_Conqueror_King_of_England,
_was_Re:_Agn?=ate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 13:33:30 -0800 (PST)
References: <s76a7e89.084@CENTRAL_SVR2><mailman.
1000.1198197692.4586.gen-
[email protected]><858fa8b5-5915-4456-8b0d-
[email protected]><476b3edf
[email protected]><ea2c11a5-1000-4924-
[email protected]><0cae627c-
[email protected]><99ab07fe-
[email protected]>
<[email protected]><b543d827-b706-4690-
[email protected]>


From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 20:37:16 -0800 (PST)
References: <s76a7e89.084@CENTRAL_SVR2><mailman.
1000.1198197692.4586.gen-
[email protected]><858fa8b5-5915-4456-8b0d-
[email protected]> <476b3edf
[email protected]><ea2c11a5-1000-4924-
[email protected]><0cae627c-
[email protected]> <99ab07fe-
[email protected]>


On Dec 21, 5:33 pm, [email protected] wrote:
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 14:33:39 -0800 (PST)
On Dec 21, 1:00 pm, Joan Richardson <[email protected]
wrote:

As for Owen Tudor's wife, who was formerly the wife of King Henry V of
England, she was known to contemporaries in England as Katherine of
France, not Catherine de Valois.

William the Conqueror was not known to his contemporaries as
'William', but that doesn't stop you from using the form regularly.

Still making it up as you go along, then lecturing others for their
failure to obey your 'rules'.

[lame crossposting removed]

taf

Who's lame? Why not say what he was known by if you're so smart?

Hmmm...

If you mean he did not sign himself William I, but signed
with a cross as any illiterate person would?

If you are literate, tell us which is his known name?

William was knighted by Henry at age 15. His name?

Was his style his name? Was he always King of the English?

Was he always The Duke of Normandy?

Was he known as William the Conqueror?

Was he King of England?

As Duke of Normandy, he is known as William II. He was also,
particularly before the conquest, known as William the Bastard. Deny
it?

By his father's will, William succeeded him as Duke of Normandy at age
seven in 1035 and was known as Duke William of Normandy (French:
Guillaume, duc de Normandie; Latin: Guglielmus Dux Normanniae). Deny
it?

Although the south of England submitted quickly to Norman rule,
resistance in the north continued for six more years until 1072.
During the first two years, King William I suffered many revolts
throughout England. If he was not King William I, what was he, if
you're so smart?

You can learn from here,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_the_Conqueror

persiflage, persiflage, persiflage

~Bret, scion of Charle de Magne

http://Back-stabbing Ancestral Descendants ASSoc.genealogy.medieval

The signatures of William I and Matilda are the first two large
crosses on the Accord of Winchester from 1072.

List of changes to the royal style
Official styles of Sovereigns are shown below. Changes that only take
into account the gender of the Sovereign (such as replacing "King"
with "Queen") are not indicated. Heads of state who did not rule as
Kings or as Queens are shown in italics.

Styles of English sovereigns
Period
Style
Used by
1066-1087
King of the English
William I


William I of England
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

William I
King of the English (more...)

The Duke of Normandy in the Bayeux Tapestry
Reign
25 December 1066 - 9 September 1087
Coronation
25 December 1066
Consort
Matilda of Flanders
among others
Issue
Robert III, Duke of Normandy
William II of England
Adela, Countess of Blois
Henry I of England
Detail
Titles
King of the English
Duke of the Normans
Father
Robert the Magnificent
Mother
Herlette of Falaise
Born
10|14-28
Falaise, France
Died
9 September 1087
Convent of St. Gervais, Rouen
Burial
Saint-Étienne de Caen, France
William I of England (c.1028-9 September 1087), known as William the
Conqueror, was Duke of Normandy from 1035 to 1087 and King of England
from 1066.
In support of his claim to the English crown, William invaded England
in 1066, leading an army of Normans to victory over the Anglo-Saxon
forces of Harold Godwinson at the Battle of Hastings, and suppressed
subsequent English revolts in what has become known as the Norman
Conquest.[1]
His reign brought Norman culture to England, which had an enormous
impact on the subsequent course of England in the Middle Ages. In
addition to political changes, his reign also saw changes to English
law, a programme of building and fortification, changes in the English
language, and the introduction of continental European feudalism into
England.
As Duke of Normandy, he is known as William II. He was also,
particularly before the conquest, known as William the Bastard.

By his father's will, William succeeded him as Duke of Normandy at age
seven in 1035 and was known as Duke William of Normandy (French:
Guillaume, duc de Normandie; Latin: Guglielmus Dux Normanniae). By the
rivaling Norman noblemen, who had better claim for duke, the usual
plots to usurp his place cost William, who was supported by King Henry
I of France, three guardians, though not Count Alan of Brittany, who
was a later guardian. William was knighted by Henry at age 15. By the
time he turned 19 he was successfully dealing with threats of
rebellion and invasion. With the assistance of Henry, William finally
secured control of Normandy by defeating rebel Norman barons at Caen
in the Battle of Val-ès-Dunes in 1047, obtaining the Truce of God,
which was backed by the Roman Catholic Church.

March to London
For two weeks, William waited for a formal surrender of the English
throne, but the Witenagemot proclaimed the quite young Edgar Ætheling
instead, without coronation though. Thus, William's next target was
London, approaching proudly through the important territories of Kent,
via Dover and Canterbury, inspiring fear in the English. However, at
London, William's advance was beaten back at London Bridge, and he
decided to march westward and to storm London from the northwest.
After receiving continental reinforcements, William crossed the Thames
at Wallingford, and there he forced the surrender of Archbishop
Stigand (one of Edgar's lead supporters), in early December. William
reached Berkhamsted a few days later where Ætheling relinquished the
English crown personally and the exhausted Saxon noblemen of England
surrendered definitively. Although William was acclaimed then as
English King, he requested a coronation in London. As William I, he
was formally crowned on Christmas day 1066, in Westminster Abbey, by
Archbishop Aldred.[4]


English resistance
Although the south of England submitted quickly to Norman rule,
resistance in the north continued for six more years until 1072.
During the first two years, King William I suffered many revolts
throughout England (Dover, western Mercia, Wales, Exeter). Also, in
1068, Harold's illegitimate sons attempted an invasion of the
southwestern peninsula, but William defeated them.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesday_Book

A line drawing entitled 'Domesday Book' from Andrew Williams's
Historic Byways and Highways of Old England.
Domesday Book (also known as Domesday, or Book of Winchester) was the
record of the great survey of England completed in 1086, executed for
William I of England. The survey was similar to a census by a
government of today. William needed information about the country he
had just conquered so he could administer it. While spending Christmas
of 1085 in Gloucester, William "had deep speech with his counsellors
and sent men all over England to each shire ... to find out ... what
or how much each landholder had in land and livestock, and what it was
worth." (Anglo-Saxon Chronicle)





On Dec 22, 3:59 pm, [email protected] wrote:
On Dec 22, 5:52 am, "Dora Smith" <[email protected]> wrote:

OK, I'll bite.

What did people call William the Conqueror?

While the captions in the Bayeux tapestry are intended to be in Latin,
they display a certain English vernacular character. The Conqueror
appears as Willelm in most cases (along with Willelmi and Willelmus),
while in a few cases Wilgelm appears (remember, 'g' in Anglo-Saxon was
pronounced similar to 'y').

Willelm is also the most common form in the Domesday book.

There are seven pre-Conquest charters in which the name appear (there
was a Bishop William under Edward the C). In four cases the name
appears as Willielm. These are all in Latin, and three are universally
considered forgeries, while the fourth is debated as to authenticity.
The remaining three have Willelm. One is in Latin, and considered
spurious. The other two are in English, one considered authentic, the
other apparently dates to the late 11th century, either forged then or
copied from an authentic original.

That these sources seem in basic agreement points to the form of the
name used in England in the second half of the 11th century being
Willelm.

That being said, the most common English modern form is William and it
would be ridiculous egotistical pedantry to correct someone who uses
William, just because the man himself would not have used this
spelling.

taf

Humpty Taftey sat on a wall, Humpty Taftey had a Great Fall,
All the way into William I The Conqueror King of England's dungeon,
All William I The Conqueror King's horses,
All William I The Conqueror King's men,
Could not put poor busted-up snarly-puss Taftey back together again.

persiflage, persiflage, persiflage

he doesn't know, does he? Who does? See, me, letiTiA flufF do!

Do rag, do rag, do rag

~Bret, scion of Charle de Magne

http://Back-stabbing Ancestral Descendants ASSoc.genealogy.medieval

[email protected]

William I The Conqueror King of England

Legg inn av [email protected] » 23. desember 2007 kl. 5.00

On Dec 22, 8:11 pm, [email protected] wrote:
On Dec 22, 3:48 pm, Douglas Richardson <[email protected]> wrote:
On Dec 22, 2:05 pm, [email protected] wrote:
From you suggesting that you must be right since what you said had
not
been contradicted, the same lame argument he used.
You're just making things up as you go along, taf.
You would like to pretend so, but alas that is not the case, as you
well know. (But maybe if you keep pretending, you will even convince
yourself.)
Douglas Richardson previously wrote:
If any case, I see you coveniently glided over my other comment about
Owen Tudor not being a knight. Is that because I'm right?
This has the clear implication that my failure to contradict your
position bears on the question of its accuracy.
Bill Arnold said:
"Anyone on this forum can make a statement and it is fact until
challenged, . . . "
That would represent Mr. Arnold's position that the lack of a
challenge establishes fact, at least under some conditions.
Thus, both halves of my comparison are substantiated: I am not making
it up - you are simply blowing smoke.
Stick to the
evidence, cite your sources, and stop the personal attacks on Mr.
Arnold.
He said it. You said it. This is just a slimy attempt, by false
accusation, to shift the focus from your ridiculous statement to my
fictional attack. None of these shenanigans of yours will change the
similarity between the two one bit. As to sticking to evidence, Mr.
Pot, you are more than happy pontificate without evidence when it
suits you. This very post of yours was an evidence-free distortion of
reality, and a masked personal attack to boot, so the irony in this
demand is rich, but is of a level of hypocrisy we have come to
expect.
And, by all means, crosspost if the content demands it.
Content is inanimate - it never demands. That voice you hear in your
head telling you "Must Crosspost! Must Crosspost!" is not real: it is
simply your ego projecting. A post is on topic in the newsgroup
(singular) most relevant.
taf


From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?William_I_The_Conqueror_King_of_England,
_was_Re:_Agn?=ate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 13:33:30 -0800 (PST)
References: <s76a7e89.084@CENTRAL_SVR2><mailman.
1000.1198197692.4586.gen-
[email protected]><858fa8b5-5915-4456-8b0d-
[email protected]><476b3edf
[email protected]><ea2c11a5-1000-4924-
[email protected]><0cae627c-
[email protected]><99ab07fe-
[email protected]>
<[email protected]><b543d827-b706-4690-
[email protected]>
From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 20:37:16 -0800 (PST)
References: <s76a7e89.084@CENTRAL_SVR2><mailman.
1000.1198197692.4586.gen-
[email protected]><858fa8b5-5915-4456-8b0d-
[email protected]> <476b3edf
[email protected]><ea2c11a5-1000-4924-
[email protected]><0cae627c-
[email protected]> <99ab07fe-
[email protected]>
On Dec 21, 5:33 pm, [email protected] wrote:
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 14:33:39 -0800 (PST)
On Dec 21, 1:00 pm, Joan Richardson <[email protected]
wrote:
As for Owen Tudor's wife, who was formerly the wife of King Henry V of
England, she was known to contemporaries in England as Katherine of
France, not Catherine de Valois.
William the Conqueror was not known to his contemporaries as
'William', but that doesn't stop you from using the form regularly.
Still making it up as you go along, then lecturing others for their
failure to obey your 'rules'.
[lame crossposting removed]
taf

Who's lame? Why not say what he was known by if you're so smart?
Hmmm...
If you mean he did not sign himself William I, but signed
with a cross as any illiterate person would?
If you are literate, tell us which is his known name?
William was knighted by Henry at age 15. His name?
Was his style his name? Was he always King of the English?
Was he always The Duke of Normandy?
Was he known as William the Conqueror?
Was he King of England?
As Duke of Normandy, he is known as William II. He was also,
particularly before the conquest, known as William the Bastard. Deny
it?
By his father's will, William succeeded him as Duke of Normandy at
age
seven in 1035 and was known as Duke William of Normandy (French:
Guillaume, duc de Normandie; Latin: Guglielmus Dux Normanniae). Deny
it?
Although the south of England submitted quickly to Norman rule,
resistance in the north continued for six more years until 1072.
During the first two years, King William I suffered many revolts
throughout England. If he was not King William I, what was he, if
you're so smart?
You can learn from here,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_the_Conqueror
persiflage, persiflage, persiflage
~Bret, scion of Charle de Magne
http://Back-stabbing Ancestral Descendants ASSoc.genealogy.medieval
The signatures of William I and Matilda are the first two large
crosses on the Accord of Winchester from 1072.
List of changes to the royal style
Official styles of Sovereigns are shown below. Changes that only take
into account the gender of the Sovereign (such as replacing "King"
with "Queen") are not indicated. Heads of state who did not rule as
Kings or as Queens are shown in italics.
Styles of English sovereigns
Period
Style
Used by
1066-1087
King of the English
William I
William I of England
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
William I
King of the English (more...)
The Duke of Normandy in the Bayeux Tapestry
Reign
25 December 1066 - 9 September 1087
Coronation
25 December 1066
Consort
Matilda of Flanders
among others
Issue
Robert III, Duke of Normandy
William II of England
Adela, Countess of Blois
Henry I of England
Detail
Titles
King of the English
Duke of the Normans
Father
Robert the Magnificent
Mother
Herlette of Falaise
Born
10|14-28
Falaise, France
Died
9 September 1087
Convent of St. Gervais, Rouen
Burial
Saint-Étienne de Caen, France
William I of England (c.1028-9 September 1087), known as William the
Conqueror, was Duke of Normandy from 1035 to 1087 and King of England
from 1066.
In support of his claim to the English crown, William invaded England
in 1066, leading an army of Normans to victory over the Anglo-Saxon
forces of Harold Godwinson at the Battle of Hastings, and suppressed
subsequent English revolts in what has become known as the Norman
Conquest.[1]
His reign brought Norman culture to England, which had an enormous
impact on the subsequent course of England in the Middle Ages. In
addition to political changes, his reign also saw changes to English
law, a programme of building and fortification, changes in the
English
language, and the introduction of continental European feudalism into
England.
As Duke of Normandy, he is known as William II. He was also,
particularly before the conquest, known as William the Bastard.
By his father's will, William succeeded him as Duke of Normandy at
age
seven in 1035 and was known as Duke William of Normandy (French:
Guillaume, duc de Normandie; Latin: Guglielmus Dux Normanniae). By
the
rivaling Norman noblemen, who had better claim for duke, the usual
plots to usurp his place cost William, who was supported by King
Henry
I of France, three guardians, though not Count Alan of Brittany, who
was a later guardian. William was knighted by Henry at age 15. By the
time he turned 19 he was successfully dealing with threats of
rebellion and invasion. With the assistance of Henry, William finally
secured control of Normandy by defeating rebel Norman barons at Caen
in the Battle of Val-ès-Dunes in 1047, obtaining the Truce of God,
which was backed by the Roman Catholic Church.
March to London
For two weeks, William waited for a formal surrender of the English
throne, but the Witenagemot proclaimed the quite young Edgar Ætheling
instead, without coronation though. Thus, William's next target was
London, approaching proudly through the important territories of
Kent,
via Dover and Canterbury, inspiring fear in the English. However, at
London, William's advance was beaten back at London Bridge, and he
decided to march westward and to storm London from the northwest.
After receiving continental reinforcements, William crossed the
Thames
at Wallingford, and there he forced the surrender of Archbishop
Stigand (one of Edgar's lead supporters), in early December. William
reached Berkhamsted a few days later where Ætheling relinquished the
English crown personally and the exhausted Saxon noblemen of England
surrendered definitively. Although William was acclaimed then as
English King, he requested a coronation in London. As William I, he
was formally crowned on Christmas day 1066, in Westminster Abbey, by
Archbishop Aldred.[4]
English resistance
Although the south of England submitted quickly to Norman rule,
resistance in the north continued for six more years until 1072.
During the first two years, King William I suffered many revolts
throughout England (Dover, western Mercia, Wales, Exeter). Also, in
1068, Harold's illegitimate sons attempted an invasion of the
southwestern peninsula, but William defeated them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesday_Book
A line drawing entitled 'Domesday Book' from Andrew Williams's
Historic Byways and Highways of Old England.
Domesday Book (also known as Domesday, or Book of Winchester) was the
record of the great survey of England completed in 1086, executed for
William I of England. The survey was similar to a census by a
government of today. William needed information about the country he
had just conquered so he could administer it. While spending
Christmas
of 1085 in Gloucester, William "had deep speech with his counsellors
and sent men all over England to each shire ... to find out ... what
or how much each landholder had in land and livestock, and what it
was
worth." (Anglo-Saxon Chronicle)
On Dec 22, 3:59 pm, [email protected] wrote:
On Dec 22, 5:52 am, "Dora Smith" <[email protected]> wrote:
OK, I'll bite.
What did people call William the Conqueror?
While the captions in the Bayeux tapestry are intended to be in Latin,
they display a certain English vernacular character. The Conqueror
appears as Willelm in most cases (along with Willelmi and Willelmus),
while in a few cases Wilgelm appears (remember, 'g' in Anglo-Saxon was
pronounced similar to 'y').
Willelm is also the most common form in the Domesday book.
There are seven pre-Conquest charters in which the name appear (there
was a Bishop William under Edward the C). In four cases the name
appears as Willielm. These are all in Latin, and three are universally
considered forgeries, while the fourth is debated as to authenticity.
The remaining three have Willelm. One is in Latin, and considered
spurious. The other two are in English, one considered authentic, the
other apparently dates to the late 11th century, either forged then or
copied from an authentic original.
That these sources seem in basic agreement points to the form of the
name used in England in the second half of the 11th century being
Willelm.
That being said, the most common English modern form is William and it
would be ridiculous egotistical pedantry to correct someone who uses
William, just because the man himself would not have used this
spelling.
taf


Humpty Taftey sat on a wall, Humpty Taftey had a Great Fall,
All the way into William I The Conqueror King of England's dungeon,
All William I The Conqueror King's horses,
All William I The Conqueror King's men,
Could not put poor busted-up snarly-puss Taftey back together again.

persiflage, persiflage, persiflage

he doesn't know, does he? Who does? See, me, letiTiA flufF do!

Do rag, do rag, do rag

~Bret, scion of Charle de Magne

http://Back-stabbing Ancestral Descendants ASSoc.genealogy.medieval

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 23. desember 2007 kl. 8.32

Nonsense!

A post can easily be on topic and/or relevant in SEVERAL newsgroups.

DSH

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:a27f9433-f313-46ae-a47b-78553828ceae@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

Content is inanimate - it never demands. That voice you hear in your
head telling you "Must Crosspost! Must Crosspost!" is not real: it is
simply your ego projecting. A post is on topic in the newsgroup
(singular) most relevant.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Consent

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 23. desember 2007 kl. 8.47

Paragraph (e) may seem to no application in the 21st century (if sex with
imbeciles is covered elsewhere), but it does derive from a 19th century case
where a choirmaster persuaded a teenage pupil who apparently had no
knowledge of sex, that what he was doing was a normal part of musical
education, and absolutely essential for improving her singing voice.

<G>

Hmmmmm...

What sort of sex was involved?

DSH

"Apteryx" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

"Vinny Burgoo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

The other two are just plain weird.

Consent is not consent

(e) where the person agreed or submitted to the act because he
or she was deceived by the accused about the nature or purpose
of the activity;

(f) where the person agreed to the act because the accused
impersonated someone who was known to the person;


My understanding is that both of these points are part of the traditional
English common law definition of "consent", although I don't know if they
were ever adopted in Scotland before. As such, they both derive from
actual cases. Paragraph (f) is designed to protect women with temporarily
absent but normally uncommunicative husbands on a dark night. Paragraph
(e) may seem to no application in the 21st century (if sex with imbeciles
is covered elsewhere), but it does derive from a 19th century case where a
choirmaster persuaded a teenage pupil who apparently had no knowledge of
sex, that what he was doing was a normal part of musical education, and
absolutely essential for improving her singing voice.

Ilya Sonobavich Yugotanas

Re: Agnate Gâtinais-Anjou-Plantagenet: was Re: DNA

Legg inn av Ilya Sonobavich Yugotanas » 23. desember 2007 kl. 12.18

On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 07:32:29 -0000, "D. Spencer Hines"
<[email protected]> wrote:

Nonsense!

A post can easily be on topic and/or relevant in SEVERAL newsgroups.

DSH


Note that this comes from a man who thinks that a discussion of his
new Toyota Avalon is on topic in the following groups:

alt.history.british
sci.military.naval
soc.culture.scottish
soc.history.medieval
us.military.army

And he thinks that a message entitled "Complete Peerage Addition: Maud
Fitz Alan, The Almost Queen of Scotland" should be posted to:

alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.interracial

Any opinion on the subject of cross-posting expressed by this man is
automatically disqualified as being totally worthless.

Come to think of it, any opinion on any subject expressed by this man
is automatically disqualified as being totally worthless.


Ilya

Ken Ozanne

Re: Proxy downloads working

Legg inn av Ken Ozanne » 23. desember 2007 kl. 13.33

Guy, Richard, John, probably others,

This is the advice that got me sorted. I downloaded the book I was after
in short order with sureproxy, rather than laboriously copying a page at a
time using proxify. I know this will help some other list members as well.

Thanks enormously. Thanks also to those who offered other help.

As far as I know, google books is the only source of online books that
applies different conditions to users outside the US. So it is the only
place I know where proxification is crucial to downloading or even viewing.

Best,
Ken (whose Xmas has been made)


From: "Guy Vincent" <[email protected]
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 09:13:08 +1100
To: "Gen Med" <[email protected]
Subject: RE: Fixing Google Books [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

Proxify is a reliable proxy server and often recommended here, however I find
it doesn't allow downloads (well, not over a certain size anyway).
Proxy.org lists many web based proxy servers (I'm using sureproxy at the
moment but have used others) that will allow downloads and at
a speed that doesn't make your pc obsolete before the download is complete.
This should solve the problem from anywhere outside the U.S.

Guy Vincent

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