Dear friend,
Try this site: http://www.genmarenostrum.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 6:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: VICENZA -ITALY
Would anyone be able to advise me, apart from going to Italy, how I can
find a genealogy of an Italian family from the Veneto area - Vicenza to be
precise. Ideally i would like to be able to contact the Local archives, but
try finding them on the web! The very good Sardimpex site does not have the
details of the family I am looking for, and its Moderator, M Schama, has
told me in
the past, that they aren't thinking of doing the family _I'm_ (mailto:I@m)
interested in quite yet - pity!
regards
Pg ( de Loriol)
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Blount-Ayala
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
M. de la Fayette
RE: VICENZA -ITALY
Dear friend,
Try this site: http://www.genmarenostrum.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 6:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: VICENZA -ITALY
Would anyone be able to advise me, apart from going to Italy, how I can
find a genealogy of an Italian family from the Veneto area - Vicenza to be
precise. Ideally i would like to be able to contact the Local archives, but
try finding them on the web! The very good Sardimpex site does not have the
details of the family I am looking for, and its Moderator, M Schama, has
told me in
the past, that they aren't thinking of doing the family _I'm_ (mailto:I@m)
interested in quite yet - pity!
regards
Pg ( de Loriol)
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Try this site: http://www.genmarenostrum.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 6:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: VICENZA -ITALY
Would anyone be able to advise me, apart from going to Italy, how I can
find a genealogy of an Italian family from the Veneto area - Vicenza to be
precise. Ideally i would like to be able to contact the Local archives, but
try finding them on the web! The very good Sardimpex site does not have the
details of the family I am looking for, and its Moderator, M Schama, has
told me in
the past, that they aren't thinking of doing the family _I'm_ (mailto:I@m)
interested in quite yet - pity!
regards
Pg ( de Loriol)
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
-
Patricia A. Junkin
Re: Zouche-Ingham
Dear John,
The following is clearly supposition but I will suggest it needs a
deeper look. This is the Sir William la Zouche of Blaketoriton, Devon.
What part had William retained?
1268 Mar. 24. Whereas the king, by occasion of trespasses done to him
of Walter de Stivechworth, gave all his lands, except those which he
had given in Pappewrth, to John Tibetot and William la Zuche, son of
Alan Zuche, to wit. A moiety to each; and the said John has
surrendered and quit-claimed his moiety to Master Thomas de la Leye,
king’s clerk aand Malcolm de Harleg’ to the use of the said Walter;
the king ratifies the said surrender and quit-claim, and orders that
the said Walter be not molested by occasion of the said trespasses
touching the said moiety.1 Whereas the king, by occasion of trespasses
done to him of Walter de Stivechworth, gave all his lands, except
those which he had given in Pappeworth, to John Tibetott and William
la Zuche, son of Alan la Zuche, to wit, a moiety to each; and the said
John has surrendered and quit claimed his moiety to Master Thomas de
la Leye, King's clerk and Malcolm de Harleg' to the use of the said
Walter; the king ratifies the said surrender and quit claim and orders
that the said Walter be not molested by occasion of the said
trespasses touching the said moiety; William la Zuche then surrenders
his moiety in Sneylewell, Fordham and Hyselham to Master Thomas de la
Leye.
The king had placed the lands of William Passelewe in Bruham, Bydeham,
Badelesden and ________in the hands of William la Zuche who
surrendered those to William.
1268. April 8: Whereas by occasion of the trespasses done to the king
by Walter de Stivechworth at the time of the disturbance had in the
realm, the king gave his lands, except those in Pappewrth to William
la Zuche and John de Tybetot, to wit. A moiety in Sneylewell, Fordham
and Hyselham to Master Thomas de Leye, king’s clerk to the use of the
said Walter; the king ratifies this and wills that the said Walter be
no further molested as to those lands.CPR.
Variations on Stivechworth: Stetchworth, Stewcheworthe, Stitchworth,
Stenchworth--County: [Cambridge]; Radfield (Hundred), with; Cheveley,
Stetchworth (Stencheworth), Dullingham, Ditton, Burrough (Burgh),
Wratting, Weston; Tourns of the Earldom of Richmond and Courts. It
lies in the Hundred of Radfield.
In 35 Henry VI Grant by William Oldhall, knight, to William Yelverton,
knight, a justice of the King's Bench, Miles Stapylton, Thomas
Tudenham, & etc. and John Crudde of the manor of Dytton Valentz, with
all lands, tenements, rents, and services, &c. appertaining to that
manor or in the vills of Dytton Valentz, Newemarket, Chevelee, Saxton,
Kertelenge, Dytton Camays and Stewcheworthe, to the intent that they
might give effect to his last will when made. (British History Online
Ancient Deeds)
Miles Stapleton was a descendant of Sir Oliver Ingham and Elizabeth la
Zouche.
Best,
Pat
On Jan 28, 2008, at 3:14 PM, John Foster wrote:
The following is clearly supposition but I will suggest it needs a
deeper look. This is the Sir William la Zouche of Blaketoriton, Devon.
What part had William retained?
1268 Mar. 24. Whereas the king, by occasion of trespasses done to him
of Walter de Stivechworth, gave all his lands, except those which he
had given in Pappewrth, to John Tibetot and William la Zuche, son of
Alan Zuche, to wit. A moiety to each; and the said John has
surrendered and quit-claimed his moiety to Master Thomas de la Leye,
king’s clerk aand Malcolm de Harleg’ to the use of the said Walter;
the king ratifies the said surrender and quit-claim, and orders that
the said Walter be not molested by occasion of the said trespasses
touching the said moiety.1 Whereas the king, by occasion of trespasses
done to him of Walter de Stivechworth, gave all his lands, except
those which he had given in Pappeworth, to John Tibetott and William
la Zuche, son of Alan la Zuche, to wit, a moiety to each; and the said
John has surrendered and quit claimed his moiety to Master Thomas de
la Leye, King's clerk and Malcolm de Harleg' to the use of the said
Walter; the king ratifies the said surrender and quit claim and orders
that the said Walter be not molested by occasion of the said
trespasses touching the said moiety; William la Zuche then surrenders
his moiety in Sneylewell, Fordham and Hyselham to Master Thomas de la
Leye.
The king had placed the lands of William Passelewe in Bruham, Bydeham,
Badelesden and ________in the hands of William la Zuche who
surrendered those to William.
1268. April 8: Whereas by occasion of the trespasses done to the king
by Walter de Stivechworth at the time of the disturbance had in the
realm, the king gave his lands, except those in Pappewrth to William
la Zuche and John de Tybetot, to wit. A moiety in Sneylewell, Fordham
and Hyselham to Master Thomas de Leye, king’s clerk to the use of the
said Walter; the king ratifies this and wills that the said Walter be
no further molested as to those lands.CPR.
Variations on Stivechworth: Stetchworth, Stewcheworthe, Stitchworth,
Stenchworth--County: [Cambridge]; Radfield (Hundred), with; Cheveley,
Stetchworth (Stencheworth), Dullingham, Ditton, Burrough (Burgh),
Wratting, Weston; Tourns of the Earldom of Richmond and Courts. It
lies in the Hundred of Radfield.
In 35 Henry VI Grant by William Oldhall, knight, to William Yelverton,
knight, a justice of the King's Bench, Miles Stapylton, Thomas
Tudenham, & etc. and John Crudde of the manor of Dytton Valentz, with
all lands, tenements, rents, and services, &c. appertaining to that
manor or in the vills of Dytton Valentz, Newemarket, Chevelee, Saxton,
Kertelenge, Dytton Camays and Stewcheworthe, to the intent that they
might give effect to his last will when made. (British History Online
Ancient Deeds)
Miles Stapleton was a descendant of Sir Oliver Ingham and Elizabeth la
Zouche.
Best,
Pat
On Jan 28, 2008, at 3:14 PM, John Foster wrote:
Some google references are tough to check, since one only gives the
copyright restriction [ INGHAM ], the top page heading.
To which line Elizabeth belongs may be helped by the fact that
Baronia Anglica Concentrata&etc. states >she brought land in
Norfolk, Sussex and Wiltshire to her marriage with >Ingham.
Yes, that should be helpful.
The same reference says she kept it as dowry when Sir Oliver Ingham
d. c1344. Her lands then seemed to be confiscated by the King when
she herself d. c1350. Again, the references were hard to follow as a
bit of google extract was there, but not the original.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
John C. Foster, retsof *at* austin.rr.com was retsof *at* texas.net
RETSOFtware, where QUALITY is only a slogan...
TX4.US
RETSOF.US
COKELEY.US
LOVE-M-ALL-PETCARE.TX4.US
----- Original Message ----- From: "Patricia A. Junkin" <[email protected]
To: "John Foster" <[email protected]
Cc: <[email protected]
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 10:43 AM
Subject: Re: Zouche-Ingham
Dear John,
How very interesting.
Alan la Zouche died 1313 leaving three daughters per IPM: Heirs
Elen aged 26 and Maude aged 24 as above and a younger daughter,
Elizabeth age 20 who has taken the gard of the nuns at Brewode. I
doubt that Elizabeth would have married even though she wanted her
freedom.
Tracing the properties in Wiltshire can be confusing since the
Bysets held land there devised to Sir Oliver la Zouche, the
Mortimer-Zouche line held Farleigh Wallop and the Haryngsworths
possessing properties of the Cantilupes. To which line Elizabeth
belongs may be helped by the fact that Baronia Anglica
Concentrata&etc. states she brought land in Norfolk, Sussex and
Wiltshire to her marriage with Ingham.
Best,
Pat
On Jan 27, 2008, at 10:37 PM, John Foster wrote:
page 317
In the 9th of Edward I. Sir Oliver was summoned among other
barons to attend
the King in his expedition into Wales; he died soon after, and
was found to
hold this manor of the Lord Tateshale by one fee, to have free
warren, the
assise, and was lord also of West Dean, in Wiltshire, and John
was his on
and heir, by Elizabeth his wife, who was living in the 20th of
Edward I.
[We want to pick one of the Elizabeths who was that old. See
escaped nun
notice, below.]
Sir Oliver [Ingham] died on Thursday before the purification of
the blessed
Virgin, in the 17th [year of the reign] of Edward III. and had,
by the Lady
Elizabeth his wife, daughter of the Lord Zouch, 2 daughters,
Elizabeth and
Joan.
http://books.google.com/books?id=RkwuAA ... &dq=oliver
+ingham
An Essay Towards a Topographical History of the County of
Norfolk ... - Page
317
by Francis Blomefield, Charles Parkin - Norfolk, Eng. (County) -
1808
[How many Lord Zouch's were there at the time that Elizabeth
could have been
born?]
Barons la Zouche of Ashby (1299)
Alan la Zouche, 1st Baron la Zouche of Ashby (1267-1314) (abeyant
1314)
[parents of Elizabeth -- named the nun -- did she become a nun
when her
father died in 1314 or before then? She was aged 20 in 1314:
Cokayne, p.
222.]
Barons Zouche (of Haryngworth) (1308)
William la Zouche, 1st Baron Zouche (1276-1352)
William la Zouche, 2nd Baron Zouche (1321-1382)
Barons Zouche of Mortimer (1323)
William la Zouche, 1st Baron Zouche of Mortimer (d. 1336)
Alan la Zouche, 2nd Baron Zouche of Mortimer (1317-1346)
[The second baron of both Haryngworth and Mortimer would have
been too late
for this timeline since they didn't assume until after 1314. Are
there any
other Elizabeths?]
Elizabeth Zouche, the nun, had second thoughts:
http://books.google.com/books?id=1ll6Bu ... 3NKFNQKokc
Medieval English Nunneries, C. 1275 to 1535 By Eileen Power p. 443
Wm. Salt Archaeol. Soc. Coll. I, p. 256 (case against Elizabeth la
Zouche
who, with another nun, had escaped from Brewood in 1326; she was not
recovered until 1331).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
John C. Foster, retsof *at* austin.rr.com was retsof *at* texas.net
RETSOFtware, where QUALITY is only a slogan...
TX4.US
RETSOF.US
COKELEY.US
LOVE-M-ALL-PETCARE.TX4.US
----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]
To: <[email protected]
Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 7:56 PM
Subject: Re: Zouche-Ingham
In a message dated 1/27/2008 5:51:08 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
I have found some successful google book references for other
things, but
y'all don't like 19th century material either because it's too
bombastic.
I
wasn't complaining about anyone's book in particular. All of
everyone's
work
now also fall into the era of "new" books which are "insufficient"
because
they rely on past misconceptions.
----------------------------------------------------------
I think you are mischaracterizing the situation here, imho.
What we do here, is quote, cite and *evaluate* the sources. In
the main,
after hearty and vigorous debate in which a few mortals are fatally
wounded, we
come to a reasonable agreement or at least stopping point.
I have utter confidence that you can find a *reasonable* source
for this
line. Any source called something like "Ancestors of X" has to
be treated
in an
extremely critical manner. The vast majority of such works are
simply
sub-standard.
Will Johnson
**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in
shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exer ... 0000002489
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--
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.12/1163 - Release Date:
12/1/2007 12:05 PM
-------------------------------
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Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database:
269.16.12/1163 - Release Date: 12/1/2007 12:05 PM
-
Bob Turcott
RE: Turcott
PG
I can describe it as an Agnus Dei on a blue background flying a banner on a cross shaped staff surmounted with a gold cross of equal length arms. It is very similar to that at house of names. I can not currently find the better rendition of it I had around. Also I am not sure of the location of the recording, But it is said to have come from provance for before time of wide spread heraldry. This would make it one of the oldest heraldric crest in existance. however I will look in to this in the near future.> From: [email protected]> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 17:33:01 -0500> Subject: Turcott> To: [email protected]> > Here's a list of all the Turck coats of arms found in Rietstap's Armorial!> > Turc D'azur, à un croissant d'argent, au chef cousu de gueules, chargé de > trois étoiles d'or.> Turc De gueules, au turban d'or, avec son aigrette d'argent, acc. de trois > croissants du même, au chef d'or, chargé de trois croix pattées d'azur. Casque > avec lambrequins.> Turc (le) De gueules, au chef d'argent, ch. d'une tête de Turc de sable, > tortillée d'argent.> Turc de Vauroux De sinople, à l'orle d'argent (de quatre pièces ?).> Turca De gueules, à la fasce échiquetée de deux tires d'argent et de sable.> Turcaud de Bellevue D'argent, à une levrette rampante de sable.> Turcha De gueules, à un Turc, posé de front, habillé d'azur au surtout d'or, > chaussé d'or, coiffé d'un turban d'azur, retroussé d'argent, tenant de sa > main senestre un arc d'or et de sa dextre un arbre arraché de sinople ou un > cimeterre d'argent, garni d'or.> Turcha Bandé de gueules et d'un nébulé d'azur sur argent, de huit pièces, à > un Turc, brochant sur le tout, habillé d'or, coiffé d'un turban du même, > tenant un cimeterre d'argent, garni d'or, au chef d'azur, ch. d'une aigle éployée > d'or, becquée et membrée de gueules.> Turchetti De gueules, à la bande d'azur, ch. d'un lion léopardé de gueules. > Ou: D'or, à la bande d'azur, bordée de gueules et ch. d'un lion léopardé du > même.> Turchi De gueules, à trois fasces entées d'argent sur sable.> Turchi Tranché d'or sur gueules, à trois roses de l'un à l'autre, 2 et 1, en > chef à dextre une tête de More, tortillée d'argent.> Turchi Parti: au 1, d'argent, à la croix d'azur mouvant du parti, chargée de > quatre croissants d'or; au 2, de gueules, à trois bandes d'argent.> Turchi D'argent, à l'aigle de sable, becquée et membrée de gueules, > couronnée d'or.> Turci (de) de Trent-Turcati D'azur, à une fleur-de-lis d'or, acc. de trois > étoiles du même, l'écu bordé aussi d'or. Deux casques couronnés.> Turck D'azur, au chevron, acc. en chef de deux croisettes et en pointe d'un > croissant, le tout d'or.> Turck (de) de Kersbeeck D'argent, à sept losanges d'azur, 4 et 3, au chef de > gueules. Casque couronné.> > > There isn't one that has a lamb of God.> > > regards> > PG> > > > > > -------------------------------> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
_________________________________________________________________
Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star power.
http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx? ... xtlink_jan
I can describe it as an Agnus Dei on a blue background flying a banner on a cross shaped staff surmounted with a gold cross of equal length arms. It is very similar to that at house of names. I can not currently find the better rendition of it I had around. Also I am not sure of the location of the recording, But it is said to have come from provance for before time of wide spread heraldry. This would make it one of the oldest heraldric crest in existance. however I will look in to this in the near future.> From: [email protected]> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 17:33:01 -0500> Subject: Turcott> To: [email protected]> > Here's a list of all the Turck coats of arms found in Rietstap's Armorial!> > Turc D'azur, à un croissant d'argent, au chef cousu de gueules, chargé de > trois étoiles d'or.> Turc De gueules, au turban d'or, avec son aigrette d'argent, acc. de trois > croissants du même, au chef d'or, chargé de trois croix pattées d'azur. Casque > avec lambrequins.> Turc (le) De gueules, au chef d'argent, ch. d'une tête de Turc de sable, > tortillée d'argent.> Turc de Vauroux De sinople, à l'orle d'argent (de quatre pièces ?).> Turca De gueules, à la fasce échiquetée de deux tires d'argent et de sable.> Turcaud de Bellevue D'argent, à une levrette rampante de sable.> Turcha De gueules, à un Turc, posé de front, habillé d'azur au surtout d'or, > chaussé d'or, coiffé d'un turban d'azur, retroussé d'argent, tenant de sa > main senestre un arc d'or et de sa dextre un arbre arraché de sinople ou un > cimeterre d'argent, garni d'or.> Turcha Bandé de gueules et d'un nébulé d'azur sur argent, de huit pièces, à > un Turc, brochant sur le tout, habillé d'or, coiffé d'un turban du même, > tenant un cimeterre d'argent, garni d'or, au chef d'azur, ch. d'une aigle éployée > d'or, becquée et membrée de gueules.> Turchetti De gueules, à la bande d'azur, ch. d'un lion léopardé de gueules. > Ou: D'or, à la bande d'azur, bordée de gueules et ch. d'un lion léopardé du > même.> Turchi De gueules, à trois fasces entées d'argent sur sable.> Turchi Tranché d'or sur gueules, à trois roses de l'un à l'autre, 2 et 1, en > chef à dextre une tête de More, tortillée d'argent.> Turchi Parti: au 1, d'argent, à la croix d'azur mouvant du parti, chargée de > quatre croissants d'or; au 2, de gueules, à trois bandes d'argent.> Turchi D'argent, à l'aigle de sable, becquée et membrée de gueules, > couronnée d'or.> Turci (de) de Trent-Turcati D'azur, à une fleur-de-lis d'or, acc. de trois > étoiles du même, l'écu bordé aussi d'or. Deux casques couronnés.> Turck D'azur, au chevron, acc. en chef de deux croisettes et en pointe d'un > croissant, le tout d'or.> Turck (de) de Kersbeeck D'argent, à sept losanges d'azur, 4 et 3, au chef de > gueules. Casque couronné.> > > There isn't one that has a lamb of God.> > > regards> > PG> > > > > > -------------------------------> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
_________________________________________________________________
Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star power.
http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx? ... xtlink_jan
-
Bob Turcott
RE: Turcott
I can describe it as an Agnus Dei on a blue background flying a banner on a cross shaped staff surmounted with a gold cross of equal length arms. It is very similar to that at house of names. I can not currently find the better rendition of it I had around. Also I am not sure of the location of the recording, But it is said to have come from provance for before time of wide spread heraldry. This would make it one of the oldest heraldric crest in existance. however I will look in to this in the near future.
_________________________________________________________________
Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser!
http://biggestloser.msn.com/
From: [email protected]
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 17:33:01 -0500
Subject: Turcott
To: [email protected]
Here's a list of all the Turck coats of arms found in Rietstap's Armorial!
Turc D'azur, à un croissant d'argent, au chef cousu de gueules, chargé de
trois étoiles d'or.
Turc De gueules, au turban d'or, avec son aigrette d'argent, acc. de trois
croissants du même, au chef d'or, chargé de trois croix pattées d'azur. Casque
avec lambrequins.
Turc (le) De gueules, au chef d'argent, ch. d'une tête de Turc de sable,
tortillée d'argent.
Turc de Vauroux De sinople, à l'orle d'argent (de quatre pièces ?).
Turca De gueules, à la fasce échiquetée de deux tires d'argent et de sable.
Turcaud de Bellevue D'argent, à une levrette rampante de sable.
Turcha De gueules, à un Turc, posé de front, habillé d'azur au surtout d'or,
chaussé d'or, coiffé d'un turban d'azur, retroussé d'argent, tenant de sa
main senestre un arc d'or et de sa dextre un arbre arraché de sinople ou un
cimeterre d'argent, garni d'or.
Turcha Bandé de gueules et d'un nébulé d'azur sur argent, de huit pièces, à
un Turc, brochant sur le tout, habillé d'or, coiffé d'un turban du même,
tenant un cimeterre d'argent, garni d'or, au chef d'azur, ch. d'une aigle éployée
d'or, becquée et membrée de gueules.
Turchetti De gueules, à la bande d'azur, ch. d'un lion léopardé de gueules.
Ou: D'or, à la bande d'azur, bordée de gueules et ch. d'un lion léopardé du
même.
Turchi De gueules, à trois fasces entées d'argent sur sable.
Turchi Tranché d'or sur gueules, à trois roses de l'un à l'autre, 2 et 1, en
chef à dextre une tête de More, tortillée d'argent.
Turchi Parti: au 1, d'argent, à la croix d'azur mouvant du parti, chargée de
quatre croissants d'or; au 2, de gueules, à trois bandes d'argent.
Turchi D'argent, à l'aigle de sable, becquée et membrée de gueules,
couronnée d'or.
Turci (de) de Trent-Turcati D'azur, à une fleur-de-lis d'or, acc. de trois
étoiles du même, l'écu bordé aussi d'or. Deux casques couronnés.
Turck D'azur, au chevron, acc. en chef de deux croisettes et en pointe d'un
croissant, le tout d'or.
Turck (de) de Kersbeeck D'argent, à sept losanges d'azur, 4 et 3, au chef de
gueules. Casque couronné.
There isn't one that has a lamb of God.
regards
PG
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Gjest
Re: Anthony Browne's Will 1567 (1)
In a message dated 30/01/2008 06:10:50 GMT Standard Time, [email protected]
writes:
<<<<<<<
I can illuminate a bit on who is Dorothy , daughter of Joan, and wife
of Edmund Huddleston.
Joan Farrington married twice, her first husband was Henry Beconsaw
and by him she had a daughter Dorothy who married Edmund Huddleston.
Joan Farrington in turn was the daughter of William Farrington by his
wife Isabel Clayton who afterwards married Nicholas Butler (Botiler)
and had two more daughters by him Elizabeth and Ellen.
Isabel Clayton was one of two co-heiresses of her own father John
Clayton by his wife Elizabeth Langton.
Now now we run into those pesky Langton's again.
Five stars for who can correctly place this Elizabeth Langton.
Will Johnson
<<<<<<<
Will,
Thanks for that. The Oxford DNB states that Joan who m Anthony Browne was
also widow of a Charles Booth as well as Henry Becconshall. This Charles
Booth is in Morant's Essex (p 118 Vol I) and is presumably DNB's source, but
Morant does not give Henry Becconshall.
Adrian
writes:
<<<<<<<
I can illuminate a bit on who is Dorothy , daughter of Joan, and wife
of Edmund Huddleston.
Joan Farrington married twice, her first husband was Henry Beconsaw
and by him she had a daughter Dorothy who married Edmund Huddleston.
Joan Farrington in turn was the daughter of William Farrington by his
wife Isabel Clayton who afterwards married Nicholas Butler (Botiler)
and had two more daughters by him Elizabeth and Ellen.
Isabel Clayton was one of two co-heiresses of her own father John
Clayton by his wife Elizabeth Langton.
Now now we run into those pesky Langton's again.
Five stars for who can correctly place this Elizabeth Langton.
Will Johnson
<<<<<<<
Will,
Thanks for that. The Oxford DNB states that Joan who m Anthony Browne was
also widow of a Charles Booth as well as Henry Becconshall. This Charles
Booth is in Morant's Essex (p 118 Vol I) and is presumably DNB's source, but
Morant does not give Henry Becconshall.
Adrian
-
Hal Bradley
RE: Re: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespee, Earl ..
Phair, Raymond W., "William Longespee, Ralph Bigod, and Countess Ida," The
American Genealogist 77:4 (Oct 2002).
Hal Bradley
American Genealogist 77:4 (Oct 2002).
Hal Bradley
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of
[email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 12:58 PM
To: [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: Re: Re: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespee, Earl ...
In a message dated 1/30/2008 11:40:14 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
As you known, Ray Phair was the
first to publish recognition of the genealogical significance of this
information
--------------------------
Todd, it might be useful to present all of this on a web page
so there's no
further confusion between amateur and professional
genealogists and amateur
and professional historians on the exact sequence of events.
Do you have a full citation to Ray's work?
Thanks
Will Johnson
**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in
shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exer ... 0000002489
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe'
without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
-
Gjest
Re: Re: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespée, Earl ..
In a message dated 1/30/2008 11:40:14 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
As you known, Ray Phair was the
first to publish recognition of the genealogical significance of this
information >>
--------------------------
Todd, it might be useful to present all of this on a web page so there's no
further confusion between amateur and professional genealogists and amateur
and professional historians on the exact sequence of events.
Do you have a full citation to Ray's work?
Thanks
Will Johnson
**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exer ... 0000002489
[email protected] writes:
As you known, Ray Phair was the
first to publish recognition of the genealogical significance of this
information >>
--------------------------
Todd, it might be useful to present all of this on a web page so there's no
further confusion between amateur and professional genealogists and amateur
and professional historians on the exact sequence of events.
Do you have a full citation to Ray's work?
Thanks
Will Johnson
**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exer ... 0000002489
-
Ian Cairns
Re: Re: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespee, Earl ...
"Hal Bradley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
The above citation also appears on the relevant Wikipedia page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_de ... _Salisbury
but then it is only Wikipedia
Ian
news:[email protected]...
Phair, Raymond W., "William Longespee, Ralph Bigod, and Countess Ida," The
American Genealogist 77:4 (Oct 2002).
Hal Bradley
The above citation also appears on the relevant Wikipedia page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_de ... _Salisbury
but then it is only Wikipedia
Ian
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of
[email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 12:58 PM
To: [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: Re: Re: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespee, Earl ...
In a message dated 1/30/2008 11:40:14 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
As you known, Ray Phair was the
first to publish recognition of the genealogical significance of this
information
--------------------------
Todd, it might be useful to present all of this on a web page
so there's no
further confusion between amateur and professional
genealogists and amateur
and professional historians on the exact sequence of events.
Do you have a full citation to Ray's work?
Thanks
Will Johnson
**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in
shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exer ... 0000002489
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe'
without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
-
Gjest
Re: Proposed Change: Beconshaw, of Moyles Court White (I0049
On Jan 31, 10:16 am, "Leo van de Pas" <[email protected]>
wrote:
The Gentleman's Magazine, 1828, p 18 assigns Alice and John Lisle two
sons and six daughters, and records Alice's gravestone which includes
details of one other daughter:
"her daughter Ann Hartfall, died 17 Feby 170-"
MA-R
wrote:
Will Johnson made me aware of John Lisle, who was not a Viscount, and why was his wife known as "the old Countess Lisle"?
I have this John Lisle in my system with the note he was a regicide.
The interesting part is that he is a descendant of Roger Mortimer, instrumental in the death of King Edward II, as well John Lisle is a descendant of King Edward I.
I found mention only of four children, and two daughters are interesting, Bridget married Leonard Hoar, 3rd President of Harvard College. The other daughter, Tryphena, married twice, a Mr. Lloyd and a Mr. Grove.
The Gentleman's Magazine, 1828, p 18 assigns Alice and John Lisle two
sons and six daughters, and records Alice's gravestone which includes
details of one other daughter:
"her daughter Ann Hartfall, died 17 Feby 170-"
MA-R
-
Gjest
Re: Proposed Change: Beconshaw, of Moyles Court White (I0049
On Jan 31, 10:48 am, [email protected] wrote:
I should add that, although ODNB states the identity of the mother of
Alice Lisle nee Beconshaw is unknown, she was called "Dame Edith" (The
Parish Registers and Parochial Documents in the Archdeaconry of
Winchester", Fearon & Williams, 1909, p 51.
This would represent an addition for ODNB.
It seems the references to John as "Viscount Lisle" are long-standing
- but erroneous. Cromwell appears to have granted a couple of
peerages, but Lisle did not receive one.
MA-R
On Jan 31, 10:16 am, "Leo van de Pas" <[email protected]
wrote:
Will Johnson made me aware of John Lisle, who was not a Viscount, and why was his wife known as "the old Countess Lisle"?
I have this John Lisle in my system with the note he was a regicide.
She was known as 'Lady Lisle'. The usual explanation given is that
John Lisle, her husband, sat in Cromwell's 'Other House' (1657-1659).
See the ODNB articles for her and her husband on this and related
points. These refer to the Lisles [she was his second wife] having
*three* children: William, Tryphena (who married twice, once to a Mr
Lloyd) and Bridget (married Leonard Hoar and Hezekiah Usher).
I should add that, although ODNB states the identity of the mother of
Alice Lisle nee Beconshaw is unknown, she was called "Dame Edith" (The
Parish Registers and Parochial Documents in the Archdeaconry of
Winchester", Fearon & Williams, 1909, p 51.
This would represent an addition for ODNB.
It seems the references to John as "Viscount Lisle" are long-standing
- but erroneous. Cromwell appears to have granted a couple of
peerages, but Lisle did not receive one.
MA-R
-
Gjest
Re: Proposed Change: Beconshaw, of Moyles Court White (I0049
On Jan 31, 10:16 am, "Leo van de Pas" <[email protected]>
wrote:
She was known as 'Lady Lisle'. The usual explanation given is that
John Lisle, her husband, sat in Cromwell's 'Other House' (1657-1659).
See the ODNB articles for her and her husband on this and related
points. These refer to the Lisles [she was his second wife] having
*three* children: William, Tryphena (who married twice, once to a Mr
Lloyd) and Bridget (married Leonard Hoar and Hezekiah Usher).
MA-R
wrote:
Will Johnson made me aware of John Lisle, who was not a Viscount, and why was his wife known as "the old Countess Lisle"?
I have this John Lisle in my system with the note he was a regicide.
She was known as 'Lady Lisle'. The usual explanation given is that
John Lisle, her husband, sat in Cromwell's 'Other House' (1657-1659).
See the ODNB articles for her and her husband on this and related
points. These refer to the Lisles [she was his second wife] having
*three* children: William, Tryphena (who married twice, once to a Mr
Lloyd) and Bridget (married Leonard Hoar and Hezekiah Usher).
MA-R
-
John Brandon
Re: Proposed Change: Beconshaw, of Moyles Court White (I0049
I found mention only of four children, and two daughters are interesting, Bridget married Leonard Hoar, 3rd President of Harvard College. The other daughter, Tryphena, married twice, a Mr. Lloyd and a Mr. Grove.
http://books.google.com/books?id=a6_q-K ... 99y12h06F4
This source immediately above shows Tryphena's husband was a Robert
Grove. This is confirmed by the 1691 marriage license, in which the
widow Tryphena Lloyd is said to be aged 22.
http://books.google.com/books?id=jKwKAA ... +lloyd&lr=
She must really have been considerably older, however, as the
extracted IGI has ...
St Katherine Creechurch, London
--Tryphena Loyd, daughter of Richard and Tryphena, bapt. 10 March 1679
-
Gjest
Re: Beconshaw of Ellingham, Hants
On Jan 31, 11:15 am, [email protected] wrote:
The IGI seems to give us some further details of Alice Lisle's
parents:
"White Beckonshaw married Edith Bond, 17 November 1613, Steeple,
Dorset"
This, contrary to what ODNB states, is not old news. Burke's History
of the Commoners, 1835, vol I, p 241, provides a Tudor ascent for Lady
Beconshaw:
1. Robert Bond of Earth, Cornwall; issue:
2. Robert Bond, married the daughter and heir of - Lutton of Lutton.
Issue:
3. Robert Bond, of Lutton, married Mary Hody, daughter of Sir John
Hody, Lord Chief Justice temps Henry VI [see ODNB]. Issue:
4. William Bond, of Lutton, died 1530; married Elizabeth Prowz,
daughter and coheir of John Prowz of Bredy, Dorset. Issue:
5. Denis Bond, of Lutton, married Alice Samways, daughter of Robert
Samways of Toller, Dorset. Issue:
6. William Bond, third son, born 1554; married 1588 Ann Long, daughter
and coheir of Richard Long of Glastonbury; left three daughters and
coheirs, including:
7. Edith Bond, married Sir White Beconshaw
Tim Powys-Lybbe [who is greatly missed here - come back Tim!] has
further details on his very useful and well referenced site
http://www.southfarm.plus.com, including an apparent ascent for the White
from the Hungerfords and thence to King Henry III.
MA-R
Will's and Leo's recent posts caused me to turn to this family, the
paternal line of Alice Lisle (d 1685).
The Hampshire RO's site states:
"The Victoria County History for Hampshire records that a Robert White
held Rockford Moyles manor in Ellingham parish, and several
generations later another Robert White was holding it in 1557. He was
succeeded by William White, on whose death in 1594 it passed to his
daughter Alice, wife of William Beconshaw. Ellingham manor was also
held by William Beconshaw in the 1630s, and on his death it passed to
his son Sir White Beconshaw, whose co-heiresses were his daughters
Elizabeth and Alice (Lisle)." It adds that Sir White lived at Moyles
Court and died in 1638.
The Gentleman's Magazine, 1828, p 18 adds some further particulars.
So we have:
1. William Beconshaw, married Alice White (d 1622), daughter and sole
heir of William White of Ellingham (died 1594); issue:
2. Sir White Beconshaw, died 1638; married Edith; issue:
The IGI seems to give us some further details of Alice Lisle's
parents:
"White Beckonshaw married Edith Bond, 17 November 1613, Steeple,
Dorset"
This, contrary to what ODNB states, is not old news. Burke's History
of the Commoners, 1835, vol I, p 241, provides a Tudor ascent for Lady
Beconshaw:
1. Robert Bond of Earth, Cornwall; issue:
2. Robert Bond, married the daughter and heir of - Lutton of Lutton.
Issue:
3. Robert Bond, of Lutton, married Mary Hody, daughter of Sir John
Hody, Lord Chief Justice temps Henry VI [see ODNB]. Issue:
4. William Bond, of Lutton, died 1530; married Elizabeth Prowz,
daughter and coheir of John Prowz of Bredy, Dorset. Issue:
5. Denis Bond, of Lutton, married Alice Samways, daughter of Robert
Samways of Toller, Dorset. Issue:
6. William Bond, third son, born 1554; married 1588 Ann Long, daughter
and coheir of Richard Long of Glastonbury; left three daughters and
coheirs, including:
7. Edith Bond, married Sir White Beconshaw
Tim Powys-Lybbe [who is greatly missed here - come back Tim!] has
further details on his very useful and well referenced site
http://www.southfarm.plus.com, including an apparent ascent for the White
from the Hungerfords and thence to King Henry III.
MA-R
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241), Wife of Emper
On Jan 29, 11:38 am, Peter Stewart <[email protected]> wrote:
<snip>
The date given is wrong, conflating two events - Elizabeth was
canonised at Pentecost in 1235, that fell on 27 May, and her relics
were translated at Marburg on 1 May in 1236.
Frederick II took part in the ceremonies on the latter occasion, in
front of a vast crowd: he personally lifted the tombstone, and
possibly also saint's head from her original resting place, and
certainly placed on this a golden crown from the imperial treasury.
It is scarcely likely after this conspicuous display of reverence for
Elizabeth, directly participating in the greatest ritual of her cult,
that the emperor would have attempted to betroth his illegitimate
daughter to her only son in the following year.
Peter Stewart
<snip>
3. Hermann was the son of two parents who were very famous for their
piety. His mother St Elizabeth had been solemnly canonised by the pope
on Pentecost, 1 May, two years earlier in 1235. She was more widely
loved and held in greater veneration than most other saints of the
era, reputed to perform not only the usual sort of healing and
teleporting miracles but, much more rare and vastly more prestigious,
to have actually raised the dead.
The date given is wrong, conflating two events - Elizabeth was
canonised at Pentecost in 1235, that fell on 27 May, and her relics
were translated at Marburg on 1 May in 1236.
Frederick II took part in the ceremonies on the latter occasion, in
front of a vast crowd: he personally lifted the tombstone, and
possibly also saint's head from her original resting place, and
certainly placed on this a golden crown from the imperial treasury.
It is scarcely likely after this conspicuous display of reverence for
Elizabeth, directly participating in the greatest ritual of her cult,
that the emperor would have attempted to betroth his illegitimate
daughter to her only son in the following year.
Peter Stewart
-
wjhonson
Re: Proposed Change: Beconshaw, of Moyles Court White (I0049
I can add from A2A the "heir apparent" of Alice at least in 1681, was
"John Lisle esq SON and heir apparent"
Hampshire Record Office: Morant of Brockenhurst
Morant of Brockenhurst
Catalogue Ref. 6M80
Creator(s): Morant family of Brockenhurst Park, Hampshire
ESTATE
TITLE DEEDS
HAMPSHIRE
ELLINGHAM
FILE - Feoffment - ref. 6M80/E/T111 - date: 1681
[from Scope and Content] (i) Sir Thomas Tipping of Wheatfield,
Oxfordshire, knight; and Dame Elizabeth his wife, daughter and co-heir
of Sir White Beconsaw, formerly of Moyles Court, knight, deceased;
Thomas Tipping esquire, son and heir apparent of Sir Thomas Tipping;
Alicia Lisle of Moyles Court, widow, another daughter and co-heir of
Sir White Beconsaw; John Lisle, esquire, son and heir apparent of
Alicia Lisle
"John Lisle esq SON and heir apparent"
Hampshire Record Office: Morant of Brockenhurst
Morant of Brockenhurst
Catalogue Ref. 6M80
Creator(s): Morant family of Brockenhurst Park, Hampshire
ESTATE
TITLE DEEDS
HAMPSHIRE
ELLINGHAM
FILE - Feoffment - ref. 6M80/E/T111 - date: 1681
[from Scope and Content] (i) Sir Thomas Tipping of Wheatfield,
Oxfordshire, knight; and Dame Elizabeth his wife, daughter and co-heir
of Sir White Beconsaw, formerly of Moyles Court, knight, deceased;
Thomas Tipping esquire, son and heir apparent of Sir Thomas Tipping;
Alicia Lisle of Moyles Court, widow, another daughter and co-heir of
Sir White Beconsaw; John Lisle, esquire, son and heir apparent of
Alicia Lisle
-
wjhonson
Re: Proposed Change: Beconshaw, of Moyles Court White (I0049
I believe that "Dame Edith" is actually the wife of White Beconsaw,
Knt of Moyles Court, Hampshire.
White was the father of Elizabeth and Alice Beconsaw and Moyles Court
was split between them a moiety each at his death.
Somewhere I had a reference to a 1634 document naming Edith as the
wife of White, but I've misplaced it.
Perhaps it's in here somewhere
http://books.google.com/books?id=OcoGAA ... w&as_brr=1
Will Johnson
Knt of Moyles Court, Hampshire.
White was the father of Elizabeth and Alice Beconsaw and Moyles Court
was split between them a moiety each at his death.
Somewhere I had a reference to a 1634 document naming Edith as the
wife of White, but I've misplaced it.
Perhaps it's in here somewhere
http://books.google.com/books?id=OcoGAA ... w&as_brr=1
Will Johnson
-
wjhonson
Re: Proposed Change: Beconshaw, of Moyles Court White (I0049
On Jan 30, 4:10 pm, John Brandon <[email protected]> wrote:
John is absolutely correct here.
My chronology so far suggests the *possibility* that the ages read as
24, and 22, *might* be re-read as "54" and "52"
Knowing how common is it to read a "2" as a "5" and vice versa, and
these ages seem like much better fits. Maybe even "54" and "55" which
also would work.
Will Johnson
I found mention only of four children, and two daughters are interesting, Bridget married Leonard Hoar, 3rd President of Harvard College. The other daughter, Tryphena, married twice, a Mr. Lloyd and a Mr. Grove.
http://books.google.com/books?id=a6_q-K ... hena+gro...
This source immediately above shows Tryphena's husband was a Robert
Grove. This is confirmed by the 1691 marriage license, in which the
widow Tryphena Lloyd is said to be aged 22.
http://books.google.com/books?id=jKwKAA ... tryphena...
She must really have been considerably older, however, as the
extracted IGI has ...
St Katherine Creechurch, London
--Tryphena Loyd, daughter of Richard and Tryphena, bapt. 10 March 1679
John is absolutely correct here.
My chronology so far suggests the *possibility* that the ages read as
24, and 22, *might* be re-read as "54" and "52"
Knowing how common is it to read a "2" as a "5" and vice versa, and
these ages seem like much better fits. Maybe even "54" and "55" which
also would work.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Proposed Change: Beconshaw, of Moyles Court White (I0049
On Jan 31, 12:45 pm, wjhonson <[email protected]> wrote:
Will
See my post above, citing Fearon & Williams, 1909; this refers to the
document you seek. See also my post on the separate Beconshaw thread,
for details of Edith's own family (Bond) from the 1835 edition of
Burke's.
MA-R
I believe that "Dame Edith" is actually the wife of White Beconsaw,
Knt of Moyles Court, Hampshire.
White was the father of Elizabeth and Alice Beconsaw and Moyles Court
was split between them a moiety each at his death.
Somewhere I had a reference to a 1634 document naming Edith as the
wife of White, but I've misplaced it.
Will
See my post above, citing Fearon & Williams, 1909; this refers to the
document you seek. See also my post on the separate Beconshaw thread,
for details of Edith's own family (Bond) from the 1835 edition of
Burke's.
MA-R
-
John Brandon
Re: Doubts about Richard Bellingham's royal line
There was apparently a descent from the Greys of Ruthin through the
Disney line ...
http://books.google.com/books?id=g6wKAA ... disney&lr=
Disney line ...
http://books.google.com/books?id=g6wKAA ... disney&lr=
-
Nathaniel Taylor
Re: Doubts about Richard Bellingham's royal line
In article
<27b2d26d-85e5-4d75-b312-80acceba622e@z17g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
John Brandon <[email protected]> wrote:
This one may not pan out as stated in the Disney visitation pedigree.
According to some references Roger, lord Grey of Ruthin (d. 1353) had a
daughter Mary who was wife of a Sir John de Burgh.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://www.nltaylor.net/sketchbook/
<27b2d26d-85e5-4d75-b312-80acceba622e@z17g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
John Brandon <[email protected]> wrote:
There was apparently a descent from the Greys of Ruthin through the
Disney line ...
http://books.google.com/books?id=g6wKAA ... hard+disne
y&lr=
This one may not pan out as stated in the Disney visitation pedigree.
According to some references Roger, lord Grey of Ruthin (d. 1353) had a
daughter Mary who was wife of a Sir John de Burgh.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://www.nltaylor.net/sketchbook/
-
John Foster
Re: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespée, Earl of Sali
Columbus was the first one to return to have a press conference, so he got
the credit, even though that's not where he was trying to go.
We've discovered Ohio, Columbus ... or is it the other way around?
St. Brendan, the Navigator didn't make it back, either, if he went.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
John C. Foster, retsof *at* austin.rr.com was retsof *at* texas.net
RETSOFtware, where QUALITY is only a slogan...
TX4.US
RETSOF.US
COKELEY.US
LOVE-M-ALL-PETCARE.TX4.US
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 12:15 PM
Subject: Fw: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury
Wasn't Erik the Red the first one to reach America?
But it is Columbus who gets the credit because he did something with his
discovery. I wonder, did Columbus know about Erik the Red? Does it matter
whether he did know about him? It doesn't change anything. The re-discovery
by Columbus is what counts.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval, soc.history.medieval
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 2:54 AM
Subject: Re: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury
< Primary credit would have to go to Henri Malo. He published back in
< 1898.
<
< Jennifer Mills
Dear Jennifer ~
You're entirely correct.
Mr. Malo definitely deserves the credit for discovering that Ralph le
Bigod was William Longespée's brother. He published first. That's
crystal clear.
Whether or not Mr. Phair knew about Mr. Malo's work is immaterial.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
the credit, even though that's not where he was trying to go.
We've discovered Ohio, Columbus ... or is it the other way around?
St. Brendan, the Navigator didn't make it back, either, if he went.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
John C. Foster, retsof *at* austin.rr.com was retsof *at* texas.net
RETSOFtware, where QUALITY is only a slogan...
TX4.US
RETSOF.US
COKELEY.US
LOVE-M-ALL-PETCARE.TX4.US
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 12:15 PM
Subject: Fw: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury
Wasn't Erik the Red the first one to reach America?
But it is Columbus who gets the credit because he did something with his
discovery. I wonder, did Columbus know about Erik the Red? Does it matter
whether he did know about him? It doesn't change anything. The re-discovery
by Columbus is what counts.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval, soc.history.medieval
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 2:54 AM
Subject: Re: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury
< Primary credit would have to go to Henri Malo. He published back in
< 1898.
<
< Jennifer Mills
Dear Jennifer ~
You're entirely correct.
Mr. Malo definitely deserves the credit for discovering that Ralph le
Bigod was William Longespée's brother. He published first. That's
crystal clear.
Whether or not Mr. Phair knew about Mr. Malo's work is immaterial.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-
norenxaq
Re: Fw: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespé e, Earl of
Leo van de Pas wrote:
no. it was his son, leif
possible, but unlikely, considering that he believed he had reached Asia
when he landed
Wasn't Erik the Red the first one to reach America?
no. it was his son, leif
But it is Columbus who gets the credit because he did something with his
discovery. I wonder, did Columbus know about Erik the Red?
possible, but unlikely, considering that he believed he had reached Asia
when he landed
-
John Brandon
Re: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salis
What is important, in the Countess Ida story, who was the Columbus?
Richardson or Ray Phar?
At the moment it looks like Richardson, who at last has identified when and
where his name was linked with the establishing of Countess Ida as the
mother of William Longespee. As he said, it is recorded in GBR's 500
Immigrants published in 1993. In which case what Ray Phar did in 2000 is
just an addition, to give wider knowledge.
But, just to play Devil's advocate, didn't Doug himself pick up a hint
about the Ida Tony marriage from a very obscure and poorly sourced
article in NEHGR (1870s-1880s)?
Also, check this out ...
http://books.google.com/books?id=RkwuAA ... e+tony&lr=
-
John Brandon
Re: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salis
But, just to play Devil's advocate, didn't Doug himself pick up a hint
about the Ida Tony marriage from a very obscure and poorly sourced
article in NEHGR (1870s-1880s)?
http://books.google.com/books?id=GMMMAA ... +thouy&lr=
-
James Hogg
Re: Ida de Tony, Mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salis
"The proposition is an universal affront to the rank which man holds
in the creation, and an indignity TO HIM WHO placed him there."
Tom Paine
Thank God there are still people at Yale Law School who can enter
Paine's words into The Avalon Project without feeling the need to
stick an incorrect [sic] after the correct declension of "him".
in the creation, and an indignity TO HIM WHO placed him there."
Tom Paine
Thank God there are still people at Yale Law School who can enter
Paine's words into The Avalon Project without feeling the need to
stick an incorrect [sic] after the correct declension of "him".
-
Gjest
Re: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salis
On Jan 31, 12:56 pm, AdrianBnjmBurke <[email protected]>
wrote:
Are you 'doing any work on the Ida question'?
Actually, with a question that has been discussed in such detail,
while occasionally one can study the question, identify specific
documents or archives that may contain critical information and
consult these sources to reveal a solution, or else reconstruct the
existing evidence in a novel an persuasive manner, 'working on' such
well-trod problems rarely results in definitive resolution. It is much
more likely that progress will come (if it comes at all) from a
prepared mind stumbling across a critical primary document and
recognizing its significance.
taf
wrote:
MY NEXT QUESTION TO THIS GROUP WILL BE: ARE THERE ANY REAL
GENEALOGISTS OUT THERE??????!!!!!!!!!
AND IF SO IS HE OR SHE DOING ANY WORK ON THE QUESTION OF
IDA???????????????????????????????
Are you 'doing any work on the Ida question'?
Actually, with a question that has been discussed in such detail,
while occasionally one can study the question, identify specific
documents or archives that may contain critical information and
consult these sources to reveal a solution, or else reconstruct the
existing evidence in a novel an persuasive manner, 'working on' such
well-trod problems rarely results in definitive resolution. It is much
more likely that progress will come (if it comes at all) from a
prepared mind stumbling across a critical primary document and
recognizing its significance.
taf
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Ida de Tony, Mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisb
Pogue Stewart is obviously still suffering from the severe and disabling
aftereffects of that hard knock his noodle took on the cobblestone at
Oxford, when he was drunkenly thrown from his motorcycle.
Hines never does anything without a clear purpose and strategy -- and he
remembers quite clearly what he has done -- unlike Pogue Stewart -- who
suffers from continuing Mayfly Memory Syndrome.
How Sweet It Is!
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
aftereffects of that hard knock his noodle took on the cobblestone at
Oxford, when he was drunkenly thrown from his motorcycle.
Hines never does anything without a clear purpose and strategy -- and he
remembers quite clearly what he has done -- unlike Pogue Stewart -- who
suffers from continuing Mayfly Memory Syndrome.
How Sweet It Is!
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
-
Gjest
Re: Fw: Ida de Tony, mother of Will iam Longespée, E arl of
In a message dated 1/31/2008 7:35:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
Peter Stewart wrote:
Perhaps Ida, in this instance, is a diminutive of Godehildis?
-------------------------------
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[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject
and the body of the message
Dear Renia,
As the mother of Roger III de Toeni`s
children was named Ida, I`d think it unlikely that She would name a daughter after
her mother-in-law and nickname said daughter after herself. it`s likelier
that Ida belonged to one of the sons who married prior to their father`s
death, be it Ralph IV, or one of the other sons named in Roger III`s Inquistion
Post Mortum which was in 1162 or before, as Roger III appears to have died
between 1158-1162. So our candidates in addition to Ralph IV (sticking to the
main line ) include Hugh, Roger, Baldwin and Geoffrey. as Ida seems to have
been married ca 1130, she may not have been young enough at her husband`s
decease to have had Ida herself after the I P M was taken. yet had she been with
child , that would probably have been mentioned at the time.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exer ... 0000002489
[email protected] writes:
Peter Stewart wrote:
On Feb 1, 10:30 am, [email protected] wrote:
On Jan 31, 3:20 pm, DaHoorn <[email protected]> wrote:
On Jan 31, 4:36 pm, DaHoorn <[email protected]> wrote:
Any new information on Ida's parentage?
From a post by John P. Ravilious Oct 8 2007, 6:37 am
Dear Leo, et al.,
I agree that the chronology would support Ida being either (A) a
somewhat late-born daughter of Roger de Tosny and Ida of Hainaut
[married before 9 August 1138], or (B) an older daughter of the
marriage of their son Ralph to Margaret de Beaumont.
I was hoping someone had proof of this.
THANK YOU!
As far as I am aware, this is the extent of it. She was a Toeny, and
that her name was Ida suggests, along with the chronology, that she
fits into the main-line family in these generations, and while we may
speculate based on tenuous associations, no proof has been
forthcoming.
There is proof (overlooked by Richardson, of course) that Roger and
Ida did not have a daughter named Ida at the time of his charter
naming his family, a confirmation of gifts made previously by his
father - this states:
"Postmodum Rogerius de Toenio, ejusdem Radulphi filius, particeps esse
volens patris eleemosynae...Dedit etiam hanc libertatem...Concessit hoc id
[sic, for Ida] uxor ejusdem Rogerii et filii eorum, Radulphus, Hugo,
Rogerius, Balduini, Gaufridus, et filiae eorum, Elizabeth et
Godehildis."
Perhaps Ida, in this instance, is a diminutive of Godehildis?
-------------------------------
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[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject
and the body of the message
Dear Renia,
As the mother of Roger III de Toeni`s
children was named Ida, I`d think it unlikely that She would name a daughter after
her mother-in-law and nickname said daughter after herself. it`s likelier
that Ida belonged to one of the sons who married prior to their father`s
death, be it Ralph IV, or one of the other sons named in Roger III`s Inquistion
Post Mortum which was in 1162 or before, as Roger III appears to have died
between 1158-1162. So our candidates in addition to Ralph IV (sticking to the
main line ) include Hugh, Roger, Baldwin and Geoffrey. as Ida seems to have
been married ca 1130, she may not have been young enough at her husband`s
decease to have had Ida herself after the I P M was taken. yet had she been with
child , that would probably have been mentioned at the time.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exer ... 0000002489
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Ida de Tony, Mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salis
On Feb 1, 11:57 am, "D. Spencer Hines" <[email protected]> wrote:
Even at his unique low of stupidity, Hines is remarkably unaware that
bluff and bluster never cut it here, much less such an utterly feeble
attempt as his above.
If Hines remembers insisting that Richardson owed full citations to
Paul Reed, Rosie Bevan and Ray Phair, in 2002 how does he account for
his new attitude to the same delinquent over the same issue in 2008?
Are we going to be told that is it according to "a clear purpose and
strategy" that Richardson is still the same cheat as he always was
while Hines has changed tack since making a dishonest idiot of himself
in relation to some of the others involved? That's deep and devious
planning, indeed - almost (but not quite) worthy of a superannuated
naval quartermaster...
Peter Stewart
Pogue Stewart is obviously still suffering from the severe and disabling
aftereffects of that hard knock his noodle took on the cobblestone at
Oxford, when he was drunkenly thrown from his motorcycle.
Hines never does anything without a clear purpose and strategy -- and he
remembers quite clearly what he has done -- unlike Pogue Stewart -- who
suffers from continuing Mayfly Memory Syndrome.
Even at his unique low of stupidity, Hines is remarkably unaware that
bluff and bluster never cut it here, much less such an utterly feeble
attempt as his above.
If Hines remembers insisting that Richardson owed full citations to
Paul Reed, Rosie Bevan and Ray Phair, in 2002 how does he account for
his new attitude to the same delinquent over the same issue in 2008?
Are we going to be told that is it according to "a clear purpose and
strategy" that Richardson is still the same cheat as he always was
while Hines has changed tack since making a dishonest idiot of himself
in relation to some of the others involved? That's deep and devious
planning, indeed - almost (but not quite) worthy of a superannuated
naval quartermaster...
Peter Stewart
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Ida de Tony, Mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisb
I say again, since Pogue Stewart is very hard of hearing and understanding:
Pogue Stewart is obviously still suffering from the severe and disabling
aftereffects of that hard knock his noodle took on the cobblestone at
Oxford, when he was drunkenly thrown from his motorcycle.
Hines never does anything without a clear purpose and strategy -- and he
remembers quite clearly what he has done -- unlike Pogue Stewart -- who
suffers from continuing Mayfly Memory Syndrome.
How Sweet It Is!
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Pogue Stewart is obviously still suffering from the severe and disabling
aftereffects of that hard knock his noodle took on the cobblestone at
Oxford, when he was drunkenly thrown from his motorcycle.
Hines never does anything without a clear purpose and strategy -- and he
remembers quite clearly what he has done -- unlike Pogue Stewart -- who
suffers from continuing Mayfly Memory Syndrome.
How Sweet It Is!
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
-
Gjest
Re: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salis
On Jan 31, 12:04 pm, John Brandon <[email protected]> wrote:
The article was published in 1856:
http://books.google.com/books?id=GMMMAA ... #PPA262,M1
Mr. Richardson first posted on this item three and a half years after
Paul Reed, John C. Parsons, Kay Allen, Vickie Elam (all sorely missed)
and others discussed the same hint, with Paul and John both offering
independently the speculation that the "de Thouy" of the NEHGR article
was, in fact, "de Thony", i.e. de Toeny. This was in 1998. (At which
time the 'correct' solution in Richardson's eyes was that she was Ada
de Chaumont.) In 2002 when Mr. Richardson announced the appearance of
this item in NEHGR he gave no indication that the earlier discussion
of this item had taken place or that this 'discovery' belonged to
anyone but himself, so if you just saw the later post you can be
excused for not knowing of the earlier discussion.
taf
But, just to play Devil's advocate, didn't Doug himself pick up a hint
about the Ida Tony marriage from a very obscure and poorly sourced
article in NEHGR (1870s-1880s)?
The article was published in 1856:
http://books.google.com/books?id=GMMMAA ... #PPA262,M1
Mr. Richardson first posted on this item three and a half years after
Paul Reed, John C. Parsons, Kay Allen, Vickie Elam (all sorely missed)
and others discussed the same hint, with Paul and John both offering
independently the speculation that the "de Thouy" of the NEHGR article
was, in fact, "de Thony", i.e. de Toeny. This was in 1998. (At which
time the 'correct' solution in Richardson's eyes was that she was Ada
de Chaumont.) In 2002 when Mr. Richardson announced the appearance of
this item in NEHGR he gave no indication that the earlier discussion
of this item had taken place or that this 'discovery' belonged to
anyone but himself, so if you just saw the later post you can be
excused for not knowing of the earlier discussion.
taf
-
Gjest
Re: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salis
On Jan 31, 12:04 pm, John Brandon <[email protected]> wrote:
This is a curious entry. It is from "an Essay Towards a Topographical
History of the County of Norfolk, 1808.
It reports that William the Conqueror made grant to of Eccles to Roger
Bigot, along with the marriage of Ida de Tony, and that Roger then
passed to land to his daughter Maud, who married William d'Aubigny
(Brito). Now, the curious thing is that Roger Bigod did marry a Toeny,
and their daughter Maud did marry William d'Aubigny, but this was not
Ida de Toeny, but Adelaide de Todeny of the Belvoir 'branch' of the
family. It was a century later that another king, Henry II,
presumably gave another Toeny, Ida, to another Roger Bigod.
Because of this confusion, it cannot be justified to say that this
source represents an authentic early indication that Ida was a Toeny -
it could be that the author never had her in mind at all and just got
confused as to the given name of the first Roger's wife, mixing it
with the latter. It could also represent an authentic tradition that
Ida was a Toeny, but we will never know.
taf
This is a curious entry. It is from "an Essay Towards a Topographical
History of the County of Norfolk, 1808.
It reports that William the Conqueror made grant to of Eccles to Roger
Bigot, along with the marriage of Ida de Tony, and that Roger then
passed to land to his daughter Maud, who married William d'Aubigny
(Brito). Now, the curious thing is that Roger Bigod did marry a Toeny,
and their daughter Maud did marry William d'Aubigny, but this was not
Ida de Toeny, but Adelaide de Todeny of the Belvoir 'branch' of the
family. It was a century later that another king, Henry II,
presumably gave another Toeny, Ida, to another Roger Bigod.
Because of this confusion, it cannot be justified to say that this
source represents an authentic early indication that Ida was a Toeny -
it could be that the author never had her in mind at all and just got
confused as to the given name of the first Roger's wife, mixing it
with the latter. It could also represent an authentic tradition that
Ida was a Toeny, but we will never know.
taf
-
wjhonson
re: More George Washington
Among the ancestor of the US first president George Washington are
Augustine Steward, esq of Norwich (GW330) and his wife
Elizabeth Reade (GW331)
Their daughter Elizabeth was GW's ancestress.
Today while randomly mousing about I happened to find a webpage which
includes a previously unknown-to-me reference to the Reppes family of
Mendham and Thorney Hall etc.
In their discussion of this family, the author idly remarks that Henry
Reppes son of John Reppes (d 1561) married firstly to Dorothy Jermy
[sic] daughter of Sir Christopher Jermy of Great Cressingham.
See http://stanfield.und.ac.za/othersfk.html
Something in the remote blackness of my mind woke up. Poking here and
there I could find no such person and not even any connection between
Jermy and Cressingham. Not daunted I pressed ahead and found that the
name *should be* spelled
Sir Christopher Jenney of Cressingham
See
http://books.google.com/books?id=BZm-1O ... hristopher
Various mentions of the Manor of Cressingham (or Great Cressingham)
mention a William Eyre and the impaling of some arms, recited in The
Genealogist states or opines that Sir Christopher married Elizabeth
EYRE, her father's heiress "in the reign of H8"
Burke's Commoners repeats this but specifying that the marriage took
place exactly in 1539 and calls Chris "One of the Judges of the Common
Pleas"
http://books.google.com/books?q=Great+C ... 9&um=1&lr=
So apparently these girls
Dorothy (Jenney) Reppes and
Elizabeth (Jenney) Steward
were co-heiresses ? and were born sometime between 1540 and 1575 ?
Comments appreciated.
Will Johnson
Augustine Steward, esq of Norwich (GW330) and his wife
Elizabeth Reade (GW331)
Their daughter Elizabeth was GW's ancestress.
Today while randomly mousing about I happened to find a webpage which
includes a previously unknown-to-me reference to the Reppes family of
Mendham and Thorney Hall etc.
In their discussion of this family, the author idly remarks that Henry
Reppes son of John Reppes (d 1561) married firstly to Dorothy Jermy
[sic] daughter of Sir Christopher Jermy of Great Cressingham.
See http://stanfield.und.ac.za/othersfk.html
Something in the remote blackness of my mind woke up. Poking here and
there I could find no such person and not even any connection between
Jermy and Cressingham. Not daunted I pressed ahead and found that the
name *should be* spelled
Sir Christopher Jenney of Cressingham
See
http://books.google.com/books?id=BZm-1O ... hristopher
Various mentions of the Manor of Cressingham (or Great Cressingham)
mention a William Eyre and the impaling of some arms, recited in The
Genealogist states or opines that Sir Christopher married Elizabeth
EYRE, her father's heiress "in the reign of H8"
Burke's Commoners repeats this but specifying that the marriage took
place exactly in 1539 and calls Chris "One of the Judges of the Common
Pleas"
http://books.google.com/books?q=Great+C ... 9&um=1&lr=
So apparently these girls
Dorothy (Jenney) Reppes and
Elizabeth (Jenney) Steward
were co-heiresses ? and were born sometime between 1540 and 1575 ?
Comments appreciated.
Will Johnson
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Ida de Tony, Mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salis
On Feb 1, 12:40 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <[email protected]> wrote:
How may times does this goon need to be told that repetition won't
make him look any less foolish? This is empty bluster on his part,
failing to address the issue at hand while parading old nonsense and
trying to pretend he is other than dishonest in his ludicrous attempt
to ingratiate himself with Richardson.
We all know there is no-one else Hines can turn to for support who who
shares in the contempt that others in SGM hold for the pair. We all
know that he only turned back to this last, low resort once he had
burned all bridges and escape boats for any other direction of retreat
available to a lying coward on Usenet.
Now I suppose he imagines he has nothing left to lose by jibbering.
Probably right, except that it reminds more people just how stupid and
desperate he must be.
Peter Stewart
I say again, since Pogue Stewart is very hard of hearing and understanding:
Pogue Stewart is obviously still suffering from the severe and disabling
aftereffects of that hard knock his noodle took on the cobblestone at
Oxford, when he was drunkenly thrown from his motorcycle.
Hines never does anything without a clear purpose and strategy -- and he
remembers quite clearly what he has done -- unlike Pogue Stewart -- who
suffers from continuing Mayfly Memory Syndrome.
How Sweet It Is!
DSH
How may times does this goon need to be told that repetition won't
make him look any less foolish? This is empty bluster on his part,
failing to address the issue at hand while parading old nonsense and
trying to pretend he is other than dishonest in his ludicrous attempt
to ingratiate himself with Richardson.
We all know there is no-one else Hines can turn to for support who who
shares in the contempt that others in SGM hold for the pair. We all
know that he only turned back to this last, low resort once he had
burned all bridges and escape boats for any other direction of retreat
available to a lying coward on Usenet.
Now I suppose he imagines he has nothing left to lose by jibbering.
Probably right, except that it reminds more people just how stupid and
desperate he must be.
Peter Stewart
-
wjhonson
Re: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespée, Earl ...
I have made such a page here
http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb ... _Longespee
Hopefully it gives a full overview of the situation and chronology
http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb ... _Longespee
Hopefully it gives a full overview of the situation and chronology
-
John Foster
Re: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespée, Earl of Sali
Do the outer islands stepped on by Columbus count as "America"? That's not
what he thought he found anyway.
We in Texas don't celebrate Columbus Day anyway, because it was part of
France, Spain, Mexico, A Republic, the US, the Confederacy and the US again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leif_Erikson_Day
Hey, the United States issued a stamp for Leif Erikson. Doesn't that count
for anything? We still think he stomped on the continent first.
Hawaii doesn't like Columbus either. Captain Cook discovered it, before they
killed him.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
John C. Foster, retsof *at* austin.rr.com was retsof *at* texas.net
RETSOFtware, where QUALITY is only a slogan...
TX4.US
RETSOF.US
COKELEY.US
LOVE-M-ALL-PETCARE.TX4.US
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <[email protected]>
To: "John Foster" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury
what he thought he found anyway.
We in Texas don't celebrate Columbus Day anyway, because it was part of
France, Spain, Mexico, A Republic, the US, the Confederacy and the US again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leif_Erikson_Day
Hey, the United States issued a stamp for Leif Erikson. Doesn't that count
for anything? We still think he stomped on the continent first.
Hawaii doesn't like Columbus either. Captain Cook discovered it, before they
killed him.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
John C. Foster, retsof *at* austin.rr.com was retsof *at* texas.net
RETSOFtware, where QUALITY is only a slogan...
TX4.US
RETSOF.US
COKELEY.US
LOVE-M-ALL-PETCARE.TX4.US
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <[email protected]>
To: "John Foster" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury
Adrian Burke, Norenxaq and John Foster, in my opinion, left the train of
thought. It is not important whether it is Erik or Leif, nor how many
other people got to America before Columbus.
What is important, in the Countess Ida story, who was the Columbus?
Richardson or Ray Phar?
At the moment it looks like Richardson, who at last has identified when
and where his name was linked with the establishing of Countess Ida as the
mother of William Longespee. As he said, it is recorded in GBR's 500
Immigrants published in 1993. In which case what Ray Phar did in 2000 is
just an addition, to give wider knowledge.
With best wiishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Foster" <[email protected]
To: <[email protected]
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 6:09 AM
Subject: Re: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury
Columbus was the first one to return to have a press conference, so he got
the credit, even though that's not where he was trying to go.
We've discovered Ohio, Columbus ... or is it the other way around?
St. Brendan, the Navigator didn't make it back, either, if he went.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
John C. Foster, retsof *at* austin.rr.com was retsof *at* texas.net
RETSOFtware, where QUALITY is only a slogan...
TX4.US
RETSOF.US
COKELEY.US
LOVE-M-ALL-PETCARE.TX4.US
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <[email protected]
To: <[email protected]
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 12:15 PM
Subject: Fw: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury
Wasn't Erik the Red the first one to reach America?
But it is Columbus who gets the credit because he did something with his
discovery. I wonder, did Columbus know about Erik the Red? Does it matter
whether he did know about him? It doesn't change anything. The
re-discovery
by Columbus is what counts.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <[email protected]
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval, soc.history.medieval
To: <[email protected]
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 2:54 AM
Subject: Re: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury
Primary credit would have to go to Henri Malo. He published back in
1898.
Jennifer Mills
Dear Jennifer ~
You're entirely correct.
Mr. Malo definitely deserves the credit for discovering that Ralph le
Bigod was William Longespée's brother. He published first. That's
crystal clear.
Whether or not Mr. Phair knew about Mr. Malo's work is immaterial.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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wjhonson
Re: Capt. Matthew Bridges of Alcester, co. Warwick, and wife
John it's a good thing you're so persistent. It finally made me take
a look.
I haven't seen yet where you're found the baptismal entries for this
family. I do think you're correct that the family in Collin's peerage
is this same one.
I'll post the baptisms shortly.
Will Johnson
a look.
I haven't seen yet where you're found the baptismal entries for this
family. I do think you're correct that the family in Collin's peerage
is this same one.
I'll post the baptisms shortly.
Will Johnson
-
wjhonson
Re: Capt. Matthew Bridges of Alcester, co. Warwick, and wife
On Jan 31, 9:52 pm, wjhonson <[email protected]> wrote:
--------------
The baptismal entries from Alcester, Warwicks. are extant, at least
some of them
For these baptisms see
http://www.familysearch.org - IGI - British Isles - Batch C035451
"Parish registers, 1560-1959 Church of England. Parish Church of
Alcester (Warwickshire) "
Father is John, mother is unlisted
William Brydges 12 Feb 1615
Elisha 11 Jan 1617
Matthew 15 Apr 1620
Mary 24 Feb 1621
Elizabeth 3 Mar 1623
Dorothy 30 Nov 1626
Mary 31 Dec 1628
Brooke 30 Dec 1630
Francis 13 Dec 1632
As you can see the two eldest John and Robert aren't listed but at
least we now know they were both born by 1615. I would *suggest only*
that the father John might be this one
John 26 Apr 1588 at Alcester
If so, his own father's name was Anthony Brydges
I do not know when John, the eldest son of John Brydges and Elizabeth
Holyoake got married to his wife Mary Beale, so it's entirely possible
that some of the last children above, are actually theirs. We'd
really need to see some marriage dates and maybe some wills or
something.
Will Johnson
I'll post the baptisms shortly.
Will Johnson
--------------
The baptismal entries from Alcester, Warwicks. are extant, at least
some of them
For these baptisms see
http://www.familysearch.org - IGI - British Isles - Batch C035451
"Parish registers, 1560-1959 Church of England. Parish Church of
Alcester (Warwickshire) "
Father is John, mother is unlisted
William Brydges 12 Feb 1615
Elisha 11 Jan 1617
Matthew 15 Apr 1620
Mary 24 Feb 1621
Elizabeth 3 Mar 1623
Dorothy 30 Nov 1626
Mary 31 Dec 1628
Brooke 30 Dec 1630
Francis 13 Dec 1632
As you can see the two eldest John and Robert aren't listed but at
least we now know they were both born by 1615. I would *suggest only*
that the father John might be this one
John 26 Apr 1588 at Alcester
If so, his own father's name was Anthony Brydges
I do not know when John, the eldest son of John Brydges and Elizabeth
Holyoake got married to his wife Mary Beale, so it's entirely possible
that some of the last children above, are actually theirs. We'd
really need to see some marriage dates and maybe some wills or
something.
Will Johnson
-
James Hogg
Re: Ida de Tony, Mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisb
On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 03:29:57 -0000, "D. Spencer Hines"
<[email protected]>
shows that all he can do is repeat himself,
whereas I have a different quotation every time,
to prove that the ponce who loves correcting others
can't even master English pronouns!
"Come thou with HER who is calling to thee."
Unwritten Literature of Hawaii: The Sacred Songs of the Hula
Collected and translated by Nathaniel B. Emerson
<[email protected]>
shows that all he can do is repeat himself,
whereas I have a different quotation every time,
to prove that the ponce who loves correcting others
can't even master English pronouns!
"Come thou with HER who is calling to thee."
Unwritten Literature of Hawaii: The Sacred Songs of the Hula
Collected and translated by Nathaniel B. Emerson
-
James Hogg
Re: Ida de Tony, Mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisb
"I respect them for ... their industry; which TO ME WHO AM but a
farmer, is the criterion of everything."
Letters From an American Farmer
Letter III - What Is An American
Contrast that old writer's sure command of case and conjugation with
the following comment found on the Internet, evidently written by
someone who attended the Hines School For They Who Want To Write:
"I loved your book. ... You are a most wonderful writer, and an
definite inspiration to I, who is a mere short novelist and poet."
A Hilarious Hinesism!
farmer, is the criterion of everything."
Letters From an American Farmer
Letter III - What Is An American
Contrast that old writer's sure command of case and conjugation with
the following comment found on the Internet, evidently written by
someone who attended the Hines School For They Who Want To Write:
"I loved your book. ... You are a most wonderful writer, and an
definite inspiration to I, who is a mere short novelist and poet."
A Hilarious Hinesism!
-
John Briggs
Re: Ida de Tony, Mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisb
James Hogg wrote:
One feels that in that case, both writer and critic deserve each other.
--
John Briggs
"I respect them for ... their industry; which TO ME WHO AM but a
farmer, is the criterion of everything."
Letters From an American Farmer
Letter III - What Is An American
Contrast that old writer's sure command of case and conjugation with
the following comment found on the Internet, evidently written by
someone who attended the Hines School For They Who Want To Write:
"I loved your book. ... You are a most wonderful writer, and an
definite inspiration to I, who is a mere short novelist and poet."
A Hilarious Hinesism!
One feels that in that case, both writer and critic deserve each other.
--
John Briggs
-
John Foster
Re: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespée, Earl of Sali
Didn't the American Indians, who mostly were already here, discover the
"iron horse"?
John C. Foster, retsof *at* austin.rr.com was retsof *at* texas.net
RETSOFtware, where QUALITY is only a slogan...
TX4.US
RETSOF.US
COKELEY.US
LOVE-M-ALL-PETCARE.TX4.US
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <[email protected]>
To: "John Foster" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury
"iron horse"?
Adrian Burke, Norenxaq and John Foster, in my opinion, left the train of
thought.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
John C. Foster, retsof *at* austin.rr.com was retsof *at* texas.net
RETSOFtware, where QUALITY is only a slogan...
TX4.US
RETSOF.US
COKELEY.US
LOVE-M-ALL-PETCARE.TX4.US
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <[email protected]>
To: "John Foster" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury
Adrian Burke, Norenxaq and John Foster, in my opinion, left the train of
thought. It is not important whether it is Erik or Leif, nor how many
other people got to America before Columbus.
What is important, in the Countess Ida story, who was the Columbus?
Richardson or Ray Phar?
At the moment it looks like Richardson, who at last has identified when
and where his name was linked with the establishing of Countess Ida as the
mother of William Longespee. As he said, it is recorded in GBR's 500
Immigrants published in 1993. In which case what Ray Phar did in 2000 is
just an addition, to give wider knowledge.
With best wiishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Foster" <[email protected]
To: <[email protected]
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 6:09 AM
Subject: Re: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury
Columbus was the first one to return to have a press conference, so he got
the credit, even though that's not where he was trying to go.
We've discovered Ohio, Columbus ... or is it the other way around?
St. Brendan, the Navigator didn't make it back, either, if he went.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
John C. Foster, retsof *at* austin.rr.com was retsof *at* texas.net
RETSOFtware, where QUALITY is only a slogan...
TX4.US
RETSOF.US
COKELEY.US
LOVE-M-ALL-PETCARE.TX4.US
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <[email protected]
To: <[email protected]
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 12:15 PM
Subject: Fw: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury
Wasn't Erik the Red the first one to reach America?
But it is Columbus who gets the credit because he did something with his
discovery. I wonder, did Columbus know about Erik the Red? Does it matter
whether he did know about him? It doesn't change anything. The
re-discovery
by Columbus is what counts.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <[email protected]
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval, soc.history.medieval
To: <[email protected]
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 2:54 AM
Subject: Re: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury
Primary credit would have to go to Henri Malo. He published back in
1898.
Jennifer Mills
Dear Jennifer ~
You're entirely correct.
Mr. Malo definitely deserves the credit for discovering that Ralph le
Bigod was William Longespée's brother. He published first. That's
crystal clear.
Whether or not Mr. Phair knew about Mr. Malo's work is immaterial.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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John Foster
Re: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespée, Earl of Sali
I suppose I will have to be one of the ones that brings this further
forward, from one of the few relevant bound cellulose documents in my
possession.
That's fine to note that DR mentions GBR 500. ("... I hate
quotations..." -Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882)
Let's see what GBR 600 in the 2006 addendum on p. 825 says about DR's
quotation of GBR 500 p. 455. ("I have no opinion." -Tim "The Tool Man"
Taylor; Tool Time; Home Improvement)
"start limited quotation"
14. pp. 528-529, 463-68. An "improved" royal descent ...
p. 455
5. Ela FitzRobert = William de Odingsells (in PA, pp. 456-59, 553; her
mother, Ida Longespee [wife of Sir Walter FitzRobert, son of Robert
FitzWalter, leader of the Magna Charta barons, and Rohese ----] is indeed
given as a second Ida, daughter of William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury, and
Ela, Countess of Salisbury. Thus Douglas Richardson now believes Ela
FitzRobert should be in generation 4, not 5, from Henry II, and Ela,
Countess of Salisbury becomes a matrilineal ancestress of Elizabeth I, Queen
of England).
5/6 Ida de Odingsells = (1) Sir Roger de Herdeburgh; (2) John de Clinton,
1st Baron Clinton
"end limited quotation"
(and further...noting generation shifts)
I suppose one should also visit the previous generation on p. 824 of GBR 600
addendum of 2006. Y'all should investigate. I will not expound on it.
13. p. 448. "Brice proposes the following "improved" alternative line from
Edward I, King of England, to which I have added a cross-reference to a
second Savage line, proposed by Douglas Richardson in Magna Carta Ancestry.
All of these "pieces-parts" do little for me unless somebody is providing a
"master copy of the whole schmear", and can be safely ignored until GBR 800
comes out.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
John C. Foster, retsof *at* austin.rr.com was retsof *at* texas.net
RETSOFtware, where QUALITY is only a slogan...
TX4.US
RETSOF.US
COKELEY.US
LOVE-M-ALL-PETCARE.TX4.US
----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 2:45 PM
Subject: Re: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury
forward, from one of the few relevant bound cellulose documents in my
possession.
That's fine to note that DR mentions GBR 500. ("... I hate
quotations..." -Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882)
Let's see what GBR 600 in the 2006 addendum on p. 825 says about DR's
quotation of GBR 500 p. 455. ("I have no opinion." -Tim "The Tool Man"
Taylor; Tool Time; Home Improvement)
"start limited quotation"
14. pp. 528-529, 463-68. An "improved" royal descent ...
p. 455
5. Ela FitzRobert = William de Odingsells (in PA, pp. 456-59, 553; her
mother, Ida Longespee [wife of Sir Walter FitzRobert, son of Robert
FitzWalter, leader of the Magna Charta barons, and Rohese ----] is indeed
given as a second Ida, daughter of William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury, and
Ela, Countess of Salisbury. Thus Douglas Richardson now believes Ela
FitzRobert should be in generation 4, not 5, from Henry II, and Ela,
Countess of Salisbury becomes a matrilineal ancestress of Elizabeth I, Queen
of England).
5/6 Ida de Odingsells = (1) Sir Roger de Herdeburgh; (2) John de Clinton,
1st Baron Clinton
"end limited quotation"
(and further...noting generation shifts)
I suppose one should also visit the previous generation on p. 824 of GBR 600
addendum of 2006. Y'all should investigate. I will not expound on it.
13. p. 448. "Brice proposes the following "improved" alternative line from
Edward I, King of England, to which I have added a cross-reference to a
second Savage line, proposed by Douglas Richardson in Magna Carta Ancestry.
All of these "pieces-parts" do little for me unless somebody is providing a
"master copy of the whole schmear", and can be safely ignored until GBR 800
comes out.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
John C. Foster, retsof *at* austin.rr.com was retsof *at* texas.net
RETSOFtware, where QUALITY is only a slogan...
TX4.US
RETSOF.US
COKELEY.US
LOVE-M-ALL-PETCARE.TX4.US
----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 2:45 PM
Subject: Re: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury
On Jan 31, 11:39 am, "Leo van de Pas" <[email protected]
wrote:
What is important, in the Countess Ida story, who was the Columbus?
Richardson or Ray Phar?
At the moment it looks like Richardson, who at last has identified when
and
where his name was linked with the establishing of Countess Ida as the
mother of William Longespee. As he said, it is recorded in GBR's 500
Immigrants published in 1993. In which case what Ray Phar did in 2000 is
just an addition, to give wider knowledge.
Mr. Richardson made a guess, from what he has posted apparently based
on nothing more substantial than the name being the same. He had no
documentary evidence to support this, and knew nothing of the Bouvines
account or Malo's interpretation of it (of course, it was presented as
fact, but that is the case with most of Mr. Richardson's
speculations), and no indication was given that not a shred of solid
evidence that supported the connection had been found. Finally, he
published this, not by passing any kind of peer review, but by
slipping it into a friend's book.
Mr. Phair found the critical Bouvines reference and recognized its
significance in proving the connection, and was rightly regarded as
having made the critical discovery in demonstrating (not just
suggesting) this relationship. He published this in a top
genealogical journal, where it went throught he standard editorial
process.
Since that time, Mr. Richardson has found Malo, and has been citing it
(in spite of the fact that it added not a single forward movement to
the question over the original Bouvines document), simply to avoid
giving credit for proving the line to the person to whom it is due -
the person who recognized in the Bouvines document the proof of the
Ida question. That he knows that Phair's application of the Bouvines
document to the question was critical to its resolution is
demonstrated by the fact that he chooses to cite another author who
was aware of the Bouvines statement but misinterpreted it and knew
nothing of 'Countess Ida', rather than claiming precedence himself
(well until now).
Basically, Mr. Richardson's standard enables a researcher to spew
speculation in all direction, and just by random chance some of it is
bound to be correct. Then he claims priority for those that happen to
find their mark, and pretends the others don't exist. That is a
standard for assigning priority, but not a good one. It awards
incaution, and floods the literature and the web with a range of
unsupported guesswork, only a small amount of which will prove right.
(As has been pointed out, you don't see him claiming priority for
being the first to guess that Ida was identical to Ada de Chaumont, do
you?) Further, it misuses such speculation - theorizing based on
nothing but name is best used to direct one toward appropriate primary
sources in order to find actual proof, not as an end to itself.
taf
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-
Gjest
Re: Henry Vere of Addington
In a message dated 27/01/2008 00:20:28 GMT Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
That moiety was held by the heirs of Elizabeth Vere and Lord Mordaunt,
Anne Vere and Sir Humphrey Brown, and Audrey Vere and John Brown. In
1577 these heirs joined in a sale of the moiety to George, Lord
Audley, and as parties to that transaction they are named as:
(i) Lewis, 3rd Lord Mordaunt [heir of Elizabeth];
(ii) Wistan Brown [heir of Audrey], and
(iii) Mary, wife of Thomas Wilford; Christian, wife of John Tufton,
and Katherine Brown.
Therefore, we can deduce that Mary and Christian Brown were both
married by 1577, and that Katherine Brown (afterwards wife of Sir
William Roper) married in or after 1577.
MA-R
In Edmund Stanton's will of 11 June 1574 whose sister Anne m John Browne of
White Roding [2nd s of George (1510-1588) son of John Browne (-1551) son of
Sir Wistan Browne (-c1535), the brother of Sir Humphrey (-1562) the father of
Christian Browne] mentions his Cow lease held of Mistress Christian Browne.
Christian Browne inherited Cow Lane, Epping from her father. So it would
seem Christian married after June 1574.
Cheers,
Adrian
[email protected] writes:
That moiety was held by the heirs of Elizabeth Vere and Lord Mordaunt,
Anne Vere and Sir Humphrey Brown, and Audrey Vere and John Brown. In
1577 these heirs joined in a sale of the moiety to George, Lord
Audley, and as parties to that transaction they are named as:
(i) Lewis, 3rd Lord Mordaunt [heir of Elizabeth];
(ii) Wistan Brown [heir of Audrey], and
(iii) Mary, wife of Thomas Wilford; Christian, wife of John Tufton,
and Katherine Brown.
Therefore, we can deduce that Mary and Christian Brown were both
married by 1577, and that Katherine Brown (afterwards wife of Sir
William Roper) married in or after 1577.
MA-R
In Edmund Stanton's will of 11 June 1574 whose sister Anne m John Browne of
White Roding [2nd s of George (1510-1588) son of John Browne (-1551) son of
Sir Wistan Browne (-c1535), the brother of Sir Humphrey (-1562) the father of
Christian Browne] mentions his Cow lease held of Mistress Christian Browne.
Christian Browne inherited Cow Lane, Epping from her father. So it would
seem Christian married after June 1574.
Cheers,
Adrian
-
Leticia Cluff
Re: Ida de Tony, Mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisb
On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 00:57:15 -0000, "D. Spencer Hines"
<[email protected]> wrote:
Why the third person, Spencer? Who is the puppet master writing these
things about you and posting them under your name?
Or is it you yourself wielding the keyboard and trying to avoid
potential difficulties with personal pronouns after your lessons from
the dogged but somewhat tiresome James Hogg?
Many thanks to jhigginsgen, by the way, for another entertaining
reminder of the true face (or is it the volte-face?) of DSH.
Tish
<[email protected]> wrote:
Pogue Stewart is obviously still suffering from the severe and disabling
aftereffects of that hard knock his noodle took on the cobblestone at
Oxford, when he was drunkenly thrown from his motorcycle.
Hines never does anything without a clear purpose and strategy -- and he
remembers quite clearly what he has done -- unlike Pogue Stewart -- who
suffers from continuing Mayfly Memory Syndrome.
Why the third person, Spencer? Who is the puppet master writing these
things about you and posting them under your name?
Or is it you yourself wielding the keyboard and trying to avoid
potential difficulties with personal pronouns after your lessons from
the dogged but somewhat tiresome James Hogg?
Many thanks to jhigginsgen, by the way, for another entertaining
reminder of the true face (or is it the volte-face?) of DSH.
Tish
-
AdrianBnjmBurke
Re: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespée, Earl ...
On Jan 31, 10:58 pm, wjhonson <[email protected]> wrote:
nice summary -
i looked up Ancestral Roots 7th edition published 1999 (i think, i
shall check again) and it states that William Longespee's mother may
have been Alix de Porhoet
I have made such a page herehttp://www.countyhistorian.com/ceci ... illiam_L...
Hopefully it gives a full overview of the situation and chronology
nice summary -
i looked up Ancestral Roots 7th edition published 1999 (i think, i
shall check again) and it states that William Longespee's mother may
have been Alix de Porhoet
-
John Brandon
Re: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salis
This is a curious entry. It is from "an Essay Towards a Topographical
History of the County of Norfolk, 1808.
It reports that William the Conqueror made grant to of Eccles to Roger
Bigot, along with the marriage of Ida de Tony, and that Roger then
passed to land to his daughter Maud, who married William d'Aubigny
(Brito). Now, the curious thing is that Roger Bigod did marry a Toeny,
and their daughter Maud did marry William d'Aubigny, but this was not
Ida de Toeny, but Adelaide de Todeny of the Belvoir 'branch' of the
family. It was a century later that another king, Henry II,
presumably gave another Toeny, Ida, to another Roger Bigod.
Because of this confusion, it cannot be justified to say that this
source represents an authentic early indication that Ida was a Toeny -
it could be that the author never had her in mind at all and just got
confused as to the given name of the first Roger's wife, mixing it
with the latter. It could also represent an authentic tradition that
Ida was a Toeny, but we will never know.
taf
Thanks, Todd. I hadn't really been paying much attention to this
thread (being bored by it), so just threw some stuff out there without
checking first.
However, I do note that Mark Morris recently found proof of Ida Tony's
identity in connection with the manor of Acles, which is surely the
same thing as Eccles above (? right). So perhaps Blomfeld (or
Parkin?) had some idea of this connection lurking in his memory. Who
knows ...
-
John Brandon
Re: Capt. Matthew Bridges of Alcester, co. Warwick, and wife
The thing to see on this is Doug's Holyoke article in _NEHGR_ (circa
late 1980s-early 1990s?). The wife of John Bridges wasn't actually a
Holyoke--more like a Wilcox (I believe), who was a half-sister of the
Holyokes.
I'm surprised that Doug has never commented on my wide-ranging Bridges
speculations, but perhaps this is because his article didn't make the
connection that Holyoke's cousin Robert Bridges, whose baptismal date
at Alcester, Warwickshire, he reports, was the same one later so
prominent at Lynn, Massachusetts.
I think DR was relying on the statement, in _Dictionary of American
Biography_, that Capt. Robert Bridges died in 1656, which can't be
squared with the statement in Betham's _Baronetage_ that this Robert
Bridges was a Colonel and in Ireland apparently some years after
1656 ...
http://books.google.com/books?id=IGAOAA ... ghedah&lr=
I frankly don't believe the 1656 death date for Robert Bridges. I
believe this was the year he left Massachusetts Bay after his house at
Lynn was destroyed by fire. I think someone must have written this
date by his name in a list of prominent early settlers, and everybody
later assumed it was a death date, rather than the year he left the
colony. I'll go through the _Essex Quarterly Court Records_ later to
see if I find any references to "Capt. Robert Bridges, deceased," or
the "estate of the late Mr. Robert Bridges." Or someone else can
check, if they want ... (hint, hint)
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/salem/witchcraft/Essex/
I'll also check _Records of the Governor and Company of the Mass.-
Bay_. However, I'm guessing there will be nothing that actually
indicates a death, rather than a departure, in 1656 for Capt. Bridges
(and he was very prominent, so one would expect to find some record of
a death or a valuation of an estate).
Notice that Betham clearly mentions "Robert Bridges, who, by Mary
Woodcock, his wife, had eight sons." _Essex Quarterly Court Records_
1:382 ff. offers clear proof that these were the same people in
Massachusetts Bay (William Woodcock mentioned in these court records
was the father of Mrs. Mary Bridges, and Mrs. Mary Washborne was her
maternal grandmother, as indicated by the 1634 London Visitation ...)
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/salem/wit ... ex382.html
http://books.google.com/books?id=iKwKAA ... e+1634&lr=
Moreover, Lechford's Notebook of early New England records mentions
several Woodcocks in connection with "Mr. Robert Bridges of Anster
[sic; surely recte Alster or Alcester]" ...
http://books.google.com/books?id=_posAA ... anster&lr=
late 1980s-early 1990s?). The wife of John Bridges wasn't actually a
Holyoke--more like a Wilcox (I believe), who was a half-sister of the
Holyokes.
I'm surprised that Doug has never commented on my wide-ranging Bridges
speculations, but perhaps this is because his article didn't make the
connection that Holyoke's cousin Robert Bridges, whose baptismal date
at Alcester, Warwickshire, he reports, was the same one later so
prominent at Lynn, Massachusetts.
I think DR was relying on the statement, in _Dictionary of American
Biography_, that Capt. Robert Bridges died in 1656, which can't be
squared with the statement in Betham's _Baronetage_ that this Robert
Bridges was a Colonel and in Ireland apparently some years after
1656 ...
http://books.google.com/books?id=IGAOAA ... ghedah&lr=
I frankly don't believe the 1656 death date for Robert Bridges. I
believe this was the year he left Massachusetts Bay after his house at
Lynn was destroyed by fire. I think someone must have written this
date by his name in a list of prominent early settlers, and everybody
later assumed it was a death date, rather than the year he left the
colony. I'll go through the _Essex Quarterly Court Records_ later to
see if I find any references to "Capt. Robert Bridges, deceased," or
the "estate of the late Mr. Robert Bridges." Or someone else can
check, if they want ... (hint, hint)
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/salem/witchcraft/Essex/
I'll also check _Records of the Governor and Company of the Mass.-
Bay_. However, I'm guessing there will be nothing that actually
indicates a death, rather than a departure, in 1656 for Capt. Bridges
(and he was very prominent, so one would expect to find some record of
a death or a valuation of an estate).
Notice that Betham clearly mentions "Robert Bridges, who, by Mary
Woodcock, his wife, had eight sons." _Essex Quarterly Court Records_
1:382 ff. offers clear proof that these were the same people in
Massachusetts Bay (William Woodcock mentioned in these court records
was the father of Mrs. Mary Bridges, and Mrs. Mary Washborne was her
maternal grandmother, as indicated by the 1634 London Visitation ...)
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/salem/wit ... ex382.html
http://books.google.com/books?id=iKwKAA ... e+1634&lr=
Moreover, Lechford's Notebook of early New England records mentions
several Woodcocks in connection with "Mr. Robert Bridges of Anster
[sic; surely recte Alster or Alcester]" ...
http://books.google.com/books?id=_posAA ... anster&lr=
-
Gjest
Re: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespée, Earl ...
On Feb 1, 7:05 am, AdrianBnjmBurke <[email protected]>
wrote:
This has been discussed here before. Prior to the discovery of the
Bradenstoke charters in which William names his mother, there was a
string of proposals based on little more than "William was
illegitimate, this is a known mistress of his father, so this may be
his mother". THis with this particular hypothesis.
taf
wrote:
On Jan 31, 10:58 pm, wjhonson <[email protected]> wrote:
I have made such a page herehttp://www.countyhistorian.com/ceci ... illiam_L...
Hopefully it gives a full overview of the situation and chronology
nice summary -
i looked up Ancestral Roots 7th edition published 1999 (i think, i
shall check again) and it states that William Longespee's mother may
have been Alix de Porhoet
This has been discussed here before. Prior to the discovery of the
Bradenstoke charters in which William names his mother, there was a
string of proposals based on little more than "William was
illegitimate, this is a known mistress of his father, so this may be
his mother". THis with this particular hypothesis.
taf
-
AdrianBnjmBurke
Re: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespée, Earl ...
On Feb 1, 10:35 am, [email protected] wrote:
yes i understand - i did not recall however hearing this particular
one put forth - and it was interesting because the 7th edition came
out after (I think) the first discovery pointing to Ida - that's why i
thought it was curious that they state alix de porhoet
On Feb 1, 7:05 am, AdrianBnjmBurke <[email protected]
wrote:
On Jan 31, 10:58 pm, wjhonson <[email protected]> wrote:
I have made such a page herehttp://www.countyhistorian.com/ceci ... illiam_L...
Hopefully it gives a full overview of the situation and chronology
nice summary -
i looked up Ancestral Roots 7th edition published 1999 (i think, i
shall check again) and it states that William Longespee's mother may
have been Alix de Porhoet
This has been discussed here before. Prior to the discovery of the
Bradenstoke charters in which William names his mother, there was a
string of proposals based on little more than "William was
illegitimate, this is a known mistress of his father, so this may be
his mother". THis with this particular hypothesis.
taf
yes i understand - i did not recall however hearing this particular
one put forth - and it was interesting because the 7th edition came
out after (I think) the first discovery pointing to Ida - that's why i
thought it was curious that they state alix de porhoet
-
Gjest
Re: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespée, Earl ...
On Feb 1, 7:58 am, AdrianBnjmBurke <[email protected]>
wrote:
IIRC, it was Sheppard's own darling theory, and he perhaps held onto
it longer than was prudent - assuming he had seen the Bradenstoke
material by the time he prepared the proofs for that page - I know I
didn't see that material until I stumbled upon Evans' article many
years after it was published.
(Along these lines, there is an ancestor list for Alfonso VI of Leon
in the Charles Evans tribute collection that provides a different
solution to the question of Countess Urraca of Castile than had
appeared from the same author's hand some time earlier in a scholarly
journal. The obvious conclusion is that he had revised his opinion,
and the more recent publication represents the more recent opinion.
The problem is that the manuscript on which the Evans volume article
was based was prepared a decade prior to publication, placing its
compilation prior to the other solution: the author had changed his
mind but the other way around. Going simply by publication date can
be misleading.)
taf
wrote:
On Feb 1, 10:35 am, [email protected] wrote:
On Feb 1, 7:05 am, AdrianBnjmBurke <[email protected]
wrote:
On Jan 31, 10:58 pm, wjhonson <[email protected]> wrote:
I have made such a page herehttp://www.countyhistorian.com/ceci ... illiam_L...
Hopefully it gives a full overview of the situation and chronology
nice summary -
i looked up Ancestral Roots 7th edition published 1999 (i think, i
shall check again) and it states that William Longespee's mother may
have been Alix de Porhoet
This has been discussed here before. Prior to the discovery of the
Bradenstoke charters in which William names his mother, there was a
string of proposals based on little more than "William was
illegitimate, this is a known mistress of his father, so this may be
his mother". THis with this particular hypothesis.
taf
yes i understand - i did not recall however hearing this particular
one put forth - and it was interesting because the 7th edition came
out after (I think) the first discovery pointing to Ida - that's why i
thought it was curious that they state alix de porhoet
IIRC, it was Sheppard's own darling theory, and he perhaps held onto
it longer than was prudent - assuming he had seen the Bradenstoke
material by the time he prepared the proofs for that page - I know I
didn't see that material until I stumbled upon Evans' article many
years after it was published.
(Along these lines, there is an ancestor list for Alfonso VI of Leon
in the Charles Evans tribute collection that provides a different
solution to the question of Countess Urraca of Castile than had
appeared from the same author's hand some time earlier in a scholarly
journal. The obvious conclusion is that he had revised his opinion,
and the more recent publication represents the more recent opinion.
The problem is that the manuscript on which the Evans volume article
was based was prepared a decade prior to publication, placing its
compilation prior to the other solution: the author had changed his
mind but the other way around. Going simply by publication date can
be misleading.)
taf
-
AdrianBnjmBurke
Re: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespée, Earl ...
On Feb 1, 12:20 pm, [email protected] wrote:
Interesting. I would have to look again at AR 7Ed. but if I recall,
there was no discussion or sources cited, merely the statement of her
possible identity. that also highlights the problems arising from
merely proposing an identity or relationship and not also including
every reason how and why one came up with the theory to begin with.
On Feb 1, 7:58 am, AdrianBnjmBurke <[email protected]
wrote:
On Feb 1, 10:35 am, [email protected] wrote:
On Feb 1, 7:05 am, AdrianBnjmBurke <[email protected]
wrote:
On Jan 31, 10:58 pm, wjhonson <[email protected]> wrote:
I have made such a page herehttp://www.countyhistorian.com/ceci ... illiam_L...
Hopefully it gives a full overview of the situation and chronology
nice summary -
i looked up Ancestral Roots 7th edition published 1999 (i think, i
shall check again) and it states that William Longespee's mother may
have been Alix de Porhoet
This has been discussed here before. Prior to the discovery of the
Bradenstoke charters in which William names his mother, there was a
string of proposals based on little more than "William was
illegitimate, this is a known mistress of his father, so this may be
his mother". THis with this particular hypothesis.
taf
yes i understand - i did not recall however hearing this particular
one put forth - and it was interesting because the 7th edition came
out after (I think) the first discovery pointing to Ida - that's why i
thought it was curious that they state alix de porhoet
IIRC, it was Sheppard's own darling theory, and he perhaps held onto
it longer than was prudent - assuming he had seen the Bradenstoke
material by the time he prepared the proofs for that page - I know I
didn't see that material until I stumbled upon Evans' article many
years after it was published.
(Along these lines, there is an ancestor list for Alfonso VI of Leon
in the Charles Evans tribute collection that provides a different
solution to the question of Countess Urraca of Castile than had
appeared from the same author's hand some time earlier in a scholarly
journal. The obvious conclusion is that he had revised his opinion,
and the more recent publication represents the more recent opinion.
The problem is that the manuscript on which the Evans volume article
was based was prepared a decade prior to publication, placing its
compilation prior to the other solution: the author had changed his
mind but the other way around. Going simply by publication date can
be misleading.)
taf- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Interesting. I would have to look again at AR 7Ed. but if I recall,
there was no discussion or sources cited, merely the statement of her
possible identity. that also highlights the problems arising from
merely proposing an identity or relationship and not also including
every reason how and why one came up with the theory to begin with.
-
Gjest
Re: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespée, Earl ...
On Feb 1, 9:54 am, AdrianBnjmBurke <[email protected]>
wrote:
He had published this hypothesis earlier elsewhere, perhaps The
American Genealogist or The Genealogist, although I don't remember
clearly.
taf
wrote:
On Feb 1, 12:20 pm, [email protected] wrote:
On Feb 1, 7:58 am, AdrianBnjmBurke <[email protected]
wrote:
On Feb 1, 10:35 am, [email protected] wrote:
On Feb 1, 7:05 am, AdrianBnjmBurke <[email protected]
wrote:
On Jan 31, 10:58 pm, wjhonson <[email protected]> wrote:
I have made such a page herehttp://www.countyhistorian.com/ceci ... illiam_L...
Hopefully it gives a full overview of the situation and chronology
nice summary -
i looked up Ancestral Roots 7th edition published 1999 (i think, i
shall check again) and it states that William Longespee's mother may
have been Alix de Porhoet
This has been discussed here before. Prior to the discovery of the
Bradenstoke charters in which William names his mother, there was a
string of proposals based on little more than "William was
illegitimate, this is a known mistress of his father, so this may be
his mother". THis with this particular hypothesis.
taf
yes i understand - i did not recall however hearing this particular
one put forth - and it was interesting because the 7th edition came
out after (I think) the first discovery pointing to Ida - that's why i
thought it was curious that they state alix de porhoet
IIRC, it was Sheppard's own darling theory, and he perhaps held onto
it longer than was prudent - assuming he had seen the Bradenstoke
material by the time he prepared the proofs for that page - I know I
didn't see that material until I stumbled upon Evans' article many
years after it was published.
(Along these lines, there is an ancestor list for Alfonso VI of Leon
in the Charles Evans tribute collection that provides a different
solution to the question of Countess Urraca of Castile than had
appeared from the same author's hand some time earlier in a scholarly
journal. The obvious conclusion is that he had revised his opinion,
and the more recent publication represents the more recent opinion.
The problem is that the manuscript on which the Evans volume article
was based was prepared a decade prior to publication, placing its
compilation prior to the other solution: the author had changed his
mind but the other way around. Going simply by publication date can
be misleading.)
taf- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Interesting. I would have to look again at AR 7Ed. but if I recall,
there was no discussion or sources cited, merely the statement of her
possible identity. that also highlights the problems arising from
merely proposing an identity or relationship and not also including
every reason how and why one came up with the theory to begin with.
He had published this hypothesis earlier elsewhere, perhaps The
American Genealogist or The Genealogist, although I don't remember
clearly.
taf
-
Mary Zashin
Re: Is There a Royal Descent for Mary LANGHORNE, Wife of Rob
On Jan 26, 2008, Mary Zashin wrote:
Frances BALDWIN TOWNSHEND JONES WILLIAMS was the mother of Robert
TOWNSHEND (b 1640, d 11 Apr 1675, VA). Robert's wife was Mary
LANGHORNE (b 1636, d bef 7 Nov 1694, VA). Mary LANGHORNE was the
daughter of Needham LANGHORNE (d Aug 1673) and Mary BOSTOCK (d Jun
1653). I found the following statement in Va. Genealogies, Vol. V,
"The Virginia Washingtons and the Manor of Newton Bromswold," by S.
H. Lee Washington, and would like to ask if there is any substance
to it:
"Many years ago a writer sugested that Needham LANGHORNE was
probably some descendant of the Langhornes of Bedfordshire, who
recorded a pedegree in the Hertfordshire Visitation of 1634, but up
til the present nothing whatever has been ascertained about
him. . .he was the fourth son of Robert LANGHORNE of Harrold Park,
co. Bedford, and through his mother, Margaret, sister of Sir John
NEEDHAM of Lichborough, Northants., Gentleman Pensioner to Queen
Elizabeth, he could trace direct descent from the Wests, Lords De
la Warr, King Henry III, and John de Baliol. . ."
Does anyone have any information to substantiate--or debunk--this
claim that the Needhams have a royal descent? Thanks, Polly Zashin
Many thanks, Mr. Brandon, for the Google books references. I had
some of them, but others were new. I will have to sharpen up my
Goggle search techniques! In any event, although the information was
useful, the question still remains of how Margaret NEEDHAM might have
been descended from "the Wests, Lords De la Warr, King Henry III, and
John de Baliol. . ." Unfortunately, Washington in his article does
not give a source for his assertion. Following is a very incomplete
ahnentafel for Mary LANGHORNE, wife of Robert TOWNSHEND. If anyone
can see from their knowledge of the families mentioned how a
connection to any of the families in the above quotation might be
made, I would appreciate the hint, as well as ideas about possible
sources. Thanks, Polly Zashin
1 Mary LANGHORNE. Born in 1636 in Northamptonshire, England. Mary
died in "Albion," St. Paul's Parish, Stafford (King George) County,
Virginia, bef 7 Nov 1694; she was 58.1
On 6 Apr 1665 when Mary was 29, she married Col. Robert TOWNSHEND, in
Newton Bromswold, Northamptonshire, England.2,3
They had the following children:
i. Frances (~1667-1726)
ii. Mary (~1669-1723)
iii. Robert Baldwin (->1675)
2 Needham LANGHORNE. Born in of Poddington, Bedfordshire, England.
Needham died in Aug 1673 in Newton Bromswold, Northamptonshire,
England.2,3 Buried on 19 Aug 1673 in Newton Bromswold,
Northamptonshire, England.2,3 on 2 Nov 1670. on 10 Jun 1675
Northamptonshire, England.
On 31 May 1630 Needham married Mary BOSTOCK, in St. Pancras Church,
Soper Lane, London, England.2,3
They had the following children:
i. Frances (1632-<1675)
1 ii. Mary (1636-<1694)
iii. Anne2,3 (->1675)
iv. William (-<1675)
3 Mary BOSTOCK. Born in of St. Dionis Backchurch Parish, London,
England. Mary died in Jun 1653. Buried on 11 Jun 1653 in Newton
Bromswold, Northamptonshire, England.2,3
4 Robert LANGHORNE. Born on 14 Sep 1566 in of Greyfriars' Priory, St.
Paul's Parish, Bedfordshire, England.2,3 Robert died in 1607; he was 40.
Robert married Margaret NEEDHAM4.
They had the following children:
i. William3 (-1654)
ii. Benjamin
iii. John (->1631)
2 iv. Needham (-1673)
5 Margaret NEEDHAM.4 Born in of Wymondley Priory, Little Wymondley,
Hertfordshire, England.
6 Charles BOSTOCK.3
Child:
3 i. Mary (-1653)
8 William LANGHORNE.3 Born in of Greyfriars' Priory, Bedfordshire,
England. William died bef 19 Aug 1631 in Barnard's Inn, Holborn,
London, England. on 8 Jan 1629/30.
William married Elizabeth BOURNE3.
They had the following children:
4 i. Robert (1566-1607)
ii. William5,3 (-<1631)
iii. Richard3
iv. Thomas3
9 Elizabeth BOURNE.3 Born on 8 Aug 1548 in of Greyfriars' Priory, St.
Paul's Parish, Bedfordshire, England.3 Elizabeth died on 1 Jun 1584;
she was 35.3
10 John NEEDHAM. Born in of Wymondley Priory, Little Wymondley,
Hertfordshire, England.6 John died on 20 Jul 1591.6 Buried in
Wymondley Church, Little Wymondley, Hertfordshire, England.7 on 8
Feb 1583/84. in 1591.
John married Jane WELDISH.
They had the following children:
i. James (1571-1653)
ii. John (1565-1618)
iii. Jane4
5 iv. Margaret
v. Bridget
vi. Elizabeth4
vii. Jane
11 Jane WELDISH. Born in of Cranbrook, Kent, England.4
16 William LANGHORNE.3 Born in Bedfordshire, England. William died
aft 1550.3
Child:
8 i. William (-<1631)
18 Richard BOURNE.3 Born abt 1523 in of Greyfriars' Priory, St.
Paul's Parish, Bedfordshire, England.
Child:
9 i. Elizabeth (1548-1584)
20 James NEEDHAM. Born in of Wymondley Priory, Little Wymondley,
Hertfordshire, England.6 James died on 22 Sep 1544 in Boulogne,
France.6 Buried in Church of Our Lady, Boulogne, France.8 on 22 Sep
1544 Boulogne, France.6,8
James married Alice ??8.
They had the following children:
10 i. John (-1591)
ii. William4
21 Alice ??8
36 William BOURNE. Born in of Greyfriars' Priory, St. Paul's Parish,
Bedfordshire, England. William died in 1544.
William married Elizabeth ??.
They had one child:
18 i. Richard (~1523-)
37 Elizabeth ??
40 Christopher NEEDHAM. Born in of Needham Grange, Grangemill,
Derbyshire, England.6
Child:
20 i. James (-1544)
80 John NEEDHAM.8 Born in of High Needham, Derbyshire, England.8
Child:
40 i. Christopher
Sources
1. Brayton, John A., “The Ancestry of Frances (Baldwin) Townshend-
Jones-Williams,” The Virginia Genealogist.
2. “Genealogies of Virginia Families#2,” http://www.genealogy.com.
3. Washington, S. H. Lee, “The Virginia Washingtons and the Manor of
Newton Bromswold,” William & Mary Quarterly, 2nd Series,, Vol. 20,
No. 3, 456-467, July, 1940.
4. Visitation of Hertfordshire, 1572 and 1634, web.ukonline.co.uk/
nigel.battysmith.
5. Visitation of London, 1633, 1634, and 1635.
6. Tighe, William J., “The Gentlemen Pensioners in Elizabethan
Politics and Government,” 1984, Cambridge, Ph.D. thesis.
7. Chauncy, Sir Henry, The Historical Antiquities of Hertfordshire,
London, 1826.
8. Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, http://www.oxforddnb.com.
-
Gjest
Re: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespée, Earl ...
On Feb 1, 10:07 am, [email protected] wrote:
Looking at the archives, it appears this was in:
_The Genealogists' Magazine_ 14:361-68
taf
On Feb 1, 9:54 am, AdrianBnjmBurke <[email protected]
wrote:
On Feb 1, 12:20 pm, [email protected] wrote:
On Feb 1, 7:58 am, AdrianBnjmBurke <[email protected]
wrote:
On Feb 1, 10:35 am, [email protected] wrote:
On Feb 1, 7:05 am, AdrianBnjmBurke <[email protected]
wrote:
On Jan 31, 10:58 pm, wjhonson <[email protected]> wrote:
I have made such a page herehttp://www.countyhistorian.com/ceci ... illiam_L...
Hopefully it gives a full overview of the situation and chronology
nice summary -
i looked up Ancestral Roots 7th edition published 1999 (i think, i
shall check again) and it states that William Longespee's mother may
have been Alix de Porhoet
This has been discussed here before. Prior to the discovery of the
Bradenstoke charters in which William names his mother, there was a
string of proposals based on little more than "William was
illegitimate, this is a known mistress of his father, so this may be
his mother". THis with this particular hypothesis.
taf
yes i understand - i did not recall however hearing this particular
one put forth - and it was interesting because the 7th edition came
out after (I think) the first discovery pointing to Ida - that's why i
thought it was curious that they state alix de porhoet
IIRC, it was Sheppard's own darling theory, and he perhaps held onto
it longer than was prudent - assuming he had seen the Bradenstoke
material by the time he prepared the proofs for that page - I know I
didn't see that material until I stumbled upon Evans' article many
years after it was published.
(Along these lines, there is an ancestor list for Alfonso VI of Leon
in the Charles Evans tribute collection that provides a different
solution to the question of Countess Urraca of Castile than had
appeared from the same author's hand some time earlier in a scholarly
journal. The obvious conclusion is that he had revised his opinion,
and the more recent publication represents the more recent opinion.
The problem is that the manuscript on which the Evans volume article
was based was prepared a decade prior to publication, placing its
compilation prior to the other solution: the author had changed his
mind but the other way around. Going simply by publication date can
be misleading.)
taf- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Interesting. I would have to look again at AR 7Ed. but if I recall,
there was no discussion or sources cited, merely the statement of her
possible identity. that also highlights the problems arising from
merely proposing an identity or relationship and not also including
every reason how and why one came up with the theory to begin with.
He had published this hypothesis earlier elsewhere, perhaps The
American Genealogist or The Genealogist, although I don't remember
clearly.
Looking at the archives, it appears this was in:
_The Genealogists' Magazine_ 14:361-68
taf
-
AdrianBnjmBurke
Re: Ida de Tony, mother of William Longespée, Earl ...
On Feb 1, 2:17 pm, [email protected] wrote:
ah ok thanks!!!
On Feb 1, 10:07 am, [email protected] wrote:
On Feb 1, 9:54 am, AdrianBnjmBurke <[email protected]
wrote:
On Feb 1, 12:20 pm, [email protected] wrote:
On Feb 1, 7:58 am, AdrianBnjmBurke <[email protected]
wrote:
On Feb 1, 10:35 am, [email protected] wrote:
On Feb 1, 7:05 am, AdrianBnjmBurke <[email protected]
wrote:
On Jan 31, 10:58 pm, wjhonson <[email protected]> wrote:
I have made such a page herehttp://www.countyhistorian.com/ceci ... illiam_L...
Hopefully it gives a full overview of the situation and chronology
nice summary -
i looked up Ancestral Roots 7th edition published 1999 (i think, i
shall check again) and it states that William Longespee's mother may
have been Alix de Porhoet
This has been discussed here before. Prior to the discovery of the
Bradenstoke charters in which William names his mother, there was a
string of proposals based on little more than "William was
illegitimate, this is a known mistress of his father, so this may be
his mother". THis with this particular hypothesis.
taf
yes i understand - i did not recall however hearing this particular
one put forth - and it was interesting because the 7th edition came
out after (I think) the first discovery pointing to Ida - that's why i
thought it was curious that they state alix de porhoet
IIRC, it was Sheppard's own darling theory, and he perhaps held onto
it longer than was prudent - assuming he had seen the Bradenstoke
material by the time he prepared the proofs for that page - I know I
didn't see that material until I stumbled upon Evans' article many
years after it was published.
(Along these lines, there is an ancestor list for Alfonso VI of Leon
in the Charles Evans tribute collection that provides a different
solution to the question of Countess Urraca of Castile than had
appeared from the same author's hand some time earlier in a scholarly
journal. The obvious conclusion is that he had revised his opinion,
and the more recent publication represents the more recent opinion.
The problem is that the manuscript on which the Evans volume article
was based was prepared a decade prior to publication, placing its
compilation prior to the other solution: the author had changed his
mind but the other way around. Going simply by publication date can
be misleading.)
taf- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Interesting. I would have to look again at AR 7Ed. but if I recall,
there was no discussion or sources cited, merely the statement of her
possible identity. that also highlights the problems arising from
merely proposing an identity or relationship and not also including
every reason how and why one came up with the theory to begin with.
He had published this hypothesis earlier elsewhere, perhaps The
American Genealogist or The Genealogist, although I don't remember
clearly.
Looking at the archives, it appears this was in:
_The Genealogists' Magazine_ 14:361-68
taf- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
ah ok thanks!!!
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Is There a Royal Descent for Mary LANGHORNE, Wife of Rob
Dear Mary,
I sent you an e-mail but it bounced back.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mary Zashin" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 6:47 AM
Subject: Re: Is There a Royal Descent for Mary LANGHORNE,Wife of Robert
TOWNSHEND?
Many thanks, Mr. Brandon, for the Google books references. I had
some of them, but others were new. I will have to sharpen up my
Goggle search techniques! In any event, although the information was
useful, the question still remains of how Margaret NEEDHAM might have
been descended from "the Wests, Lords De la Warr, King Henry III, and
John de Baliol. . ." Unfortunately, Washington in his article does
not give a source for his assertion. Following is a very incomplete
ahnentafel for Mary LANGHORNE, wife of Robert TOWNSHEND. If anyone
can see from their knowledge of the families mentioned how a
connection to any of the families in the above quotation might be
made, I would appreciate the hint, as well as ideas about possible
sources. Thanks, Polly Zashin
1 Mary LANGHORNE. Born in 1636 in Northamptonshire, England. Mary
died in "Albion," St. Paul's Parish, Stafford (King George) County,
Virginia, bef 7 Nov 1694; she was 58.1
On 6 Apr 1665 when Mary was 29, she married Col. Robert TOWNSHEND, in
Newton Bromswold, Northamptonshire, England.2,3
They had the following children:
i. Frances (~1667-1726)
ii. Mary (~1669-1723)
iii. Robert Baldwin (->1675)
2 Needham LANGHORNE. Born in of Poddington, Bedfordshire, England.
Needham died in Aug 1673 in Newton Bromswold, Northamptonshire,
England.2,3 Buried on 19 Aug 1673 in Newton Bromswold,
Northamptonshire, England.2,3 on 2 Nov 1670. on 10 Jun 1675
Northamptonshire, England.
On 31 May 1630 Needham married Mary BOSTOCK, in St. Pancras Church,
Soper Lane, London, England.2,3
They had the following children:
i. Frances (1632-<1675)
1 ii. Mary (1636-<1694)
iii. Anne2,3 (->1675)
iv. William (-<1675)
3 Mary BOSTOCK. Born in of St. Dionis Backchurch Parish, London,
England. Mary died in Jun 1653. Buried on 11 Jun 1653 in Newton
Bromswold, Northamptonshire, England.2,3
4 Robert LANGHORNE. Born on 14 Sep 1566 in of Greyfriars' Priory, St.
Paul's Parish, Bedfordshire, England.2,3 Robert died in 1607; he was 40.
Robert married Margaret NEEDHAM4.
They had the following children:
i. William3 (-1654)
ii. Benjamin
iii. John (->1631)
2 iv. Needham (-1673)
5 Margaret NEEDHAM.4 Born in of Wymondley Priory, Little Wymondley,
Hertfordshire, England.
6 Charles BOSTOCK.3
Child:
3 i. Mary (-1653)
8 William LANGHORNE.3 Born in of Greyfriars' Priory, Bedfordshire,
England. William died bef 19 Aug 1631 in Barnard's Inn, Holborn,
London, England. on 8 Jan 1629/30.
William married Elizabeth BOURNE3.
They had the following children:
4 i. Robert (1566-1607)
ii. William5,3 (-<1631)
iii. Richard3
iv. Thomas3
9 Elizabeth BOURNE.3 Born on 8 Aug 1548 in of Greyfriars' Priory, St.
Paul's Parish, Bedfordshire, England.3 Elizabeth died on 1 Jun 1584;
she was 35.3
10 John NEEDHAM. Born in of Wymondley Priory, Little Wymondley,
Hertfordshire, England.6 John died on 20 Jul 1591.6 Buried in
Wymondley Church, Little Wymondley, Hertfordshire, England.7 on 8
Feb 1583/84. in 1591.
John married Jane WELDISH.
They had the following children:
i. James (1571-1653)
ii. John (1565-1618)
iii. Jane4
5 iv. Margaret
v. Bridget
vi. Elizabeth4
vii. Jane
11 Jane WELDISH. Born in of Cranbrook, Kent, England.4
16 William LANGHORNE.3 Born in Bedfordshire, England. William died
aft 1550.3
Child:
8 i. William (-<1631)
18 Richard BOURNE.3 Born abt 1523 in of Greyfriars' Priory, St.
Paul's Parish, Bedfordshire, England.
Child:
9 i. Elizabeth (1548-1584)
20 James NEEDHAM. Born in of Wymondley Priory, Little Wymondley,
Hertfordshire, England.6 James died on 22 Sep 1544 in Boulogne,
France.6 Buried in Church of Our Lady, Boulogne, France.8 on 22 Sep
1544 Boulogne, France.6,8
James married Alice ??8.
They had the following children:
10 i. John (-1591)
ii. William4
21 Alice ??8
36 William BOURNE. Born in of Greyfriars' Priory, St. Paul's Parish,
Bedfordshire, England. William died in 1544.
William married Elizabeth ??.
They had one child:
18 i. Richard (~1523-)
37 Elizabeth ??
40 Christopher NEEDHAM. Born in of Needham Grange, Grangemill,
Derbyshire, England.6
Child:
20 i. James (-1544)
80 John NEEDHAM.8 Born in of High Needham, Derbyshire, England.8
Child:
40 i. Christopher
Sources
1. Brayton, John A., “The Ancestry of Frances (Baldwin) Townshend-
Jones-Williams,” The Virginia Genealogist.
2. “Genealogies of Virginia Families#2,” http://www.genealogy.com.
3. Washington, S. H. Lee, “The Virginia Washingtons and the Manor of
Newton Bromswold,” William & Mary Quarterly, 2nd Series,, Vol. 20,
No. 3, 456-467, July, 1940.
4. Visitation of Hertfordshire, 1572 and 1634, web.ukonline.co.uk/
nigel.battysmith.
5. Visitation of London, 1633, 1634, and 1635.
6. Tighe, William J., “The Gentlemen Pensioners in Elizabethan
Politics and Government,” 1984, Cambridge, Ph.D. thesis.
7. Chauncy, Sir Henry, The Historical Antiquities of Hertfordshire,
London, 1826.
8. Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, http://www.oxforddnb.com.
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Mary Zashin" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 6:47 AM
Subject: Re: Is There a Royal Descent for Mary LANGHORNE,Wife of Robert
TOWNSHEND?
On Jan 26, 2008, Mary Zashin wrote:
Frances BALDWIN TOWNSHEND JONES WILLIAMS was the mother of Robert
TOWNSHEND (b 1640, d 11 Apr 1675, VA). Robert's wife was Mary
LANGHORNE (b 1636, d bef 7 Nov 1694, VA). Mary LANGHORNE was the
daughter of Needham LANGHORNE (d Aug 1673) and Mary BOSTOCK (d Jun
1653). I found the following statement in Va. Genealogies, Vol. V,
"The Virginia Washingtons and the Manor of Newton Bromswold," by S.
H. Lee Washington, and would like to ask if there is any substance
to it:
"Many years ago a writer sugested that Needham LANGHORNE was
probably some descendant of the Langhornes of Bedfordshire, who
recorded a pedegree in the Hertfordshire Visitation of 1634, but up
til the present nothing whatever has been ascertained about
him. . .he was the fourth son of Robert LANGHORNE of Harrold Park,
co. Bedford, and through his mother, Margaret, sister of Sir John
NEEDHAM of Lichborough, Northants., Gentleman Pensioner to Queen
Elizabeth, he could trace direct descent from the Wests, Lords De
la Warr, King Henry III, and John de Baliol. . ."
Does anyone have any information to substantiate--or debunk--this
claim that the Needhams have a royal descent? Thanks, Polly Zashin
Many thanks, Mr. Brandon, for the Google books references. I had
some of them, but others were new. I will have to sharpen up my
Goggle search techniques! In any event, although the information was
useful, the question still remains of how Margaret NEEDHAM might have
been descended from "the Wests, Lords De la Warr, King Henry III, and
John de Baliol. . ." Unfortunately, Washington in his article does
not give a source for his assertion. Following is a very incomplete
ahnentafel for Mary LANGHORNE, wife of Robert TOWNSHEND. If anyone
can see from their knowledge of the families mentioned how a
connection to any of the families in the above quotation might be
made, I would appreciate the hint, as well as ideas about possible
sources. Thanks, Polly Zashin
1 Mary LANGHORNE. Born in 1636 in Northamptonshire, England. Mary
died in "Albion," St. Paul's Parish, Stafford (King George) County,
Virginia, bef 7 Nov 1694; she was 58.1
On 6 Apr 1665 when Mary was 29, she married Col. Robert TOWNSHEND, in
Newton Bromswold, Northamptonshire, England.2,3
They had the following children:
i. Frances (~1667-1726)
ii. Mary (~1669-1723)
iii. Robert Baldwin (->1675)
2 Needham LANGHORNE. Born in of Poddington, Bedfordshire, England.
Needham died in Aug 1673 in Newton Bromswold, Northamptonshire,
England.2,3 Buried on 19 Aug 1673 in Newton Bromswold,
Northamptonshire, England.2,3 on 2 Nov 1670. on 10 Jun 1675
Northamptonshire, England.
On 31 May 1630 Needham married Mary BOSTOCK, in St. Pancras Church,
Soper Lane, London, England.2,3
They had the following children:
i. Frances (1632-<1675)
1 ii. Mary (1636-<1694)
iii. Anne2,3 (->1675)
iv. William (-<1675)
3 Mary BOSTOCK. Born in of St. Dionis Backchurch Parish, London,
England. Mary died in Jun 1653. Buried on 11 Jun 1653 in Newton
Bromswold, Northamptonshire, England.2,3
4 Robert LANGHORNE. Born on 14 Sep 1566 in of Greyfriars' Priory, St.
Paul's Parish, Bedfordshire, England.2,3 Robert died in 1607; he was 40.
Robert married Margaret NEEDHAM4.
They had the following children:
i. William3 (-1654)
ii. Benjamin
iii. John (->1631)
2 iv. Needham (-1673)
5 Margaret NEEDHAM.4 Born in of Wymondley Priory, Little Wymondley,
Hertfordshire, England.
6 Charles BOSTOCK.3
Child:
3 i. Mary (-1653)
8 William LANGHORNE.3 Born in of Greyfriars' Priory, Bedfordshire,
England. William died bef 19 Aug 1631 in Barnard's Inn, Holborn,
London, England. on 8 Jan 1629/30.
William married Elizabeth BOURNE3.
They had the following children:
4 i. Robert (1566-1607)
ii. William5,3 (-<1631)
iii. Richard3
iv. Thomas3
9 Elizabeth BOURNE.3 Born on 8 Aug 1548 in of Greyfriars' Priory, St.
Paul's Parish, Bedfordshire, England.3 Elizabeth died on 1 Jun 1584;
she was 35.3
10 John NEEDHAM. Born in of Wymondley Priory, Little Wymondley,
Hertfordshire, England.6 John died on 20 Jul 1591.6 Buried in
Wymondley Church, Little Wymondley, Hertfordshire, England.7 on 8
Feb 1583/84. in 1591.
John married Jane WELDISH.
They had the following children:
i. James (1571-1653)
ii. John (1565-1618)
iii. Jane4
5 iv. Margaret
v. Bridget
vi. Elizabeth4
vii. Jane
11 Jane WELDISH. Born in of Cranbrook, Kent, England.4
16 William LANGHORNE.3 Born in Bedfordshire, England. William died
aft 1550.3
Child:
8 i. William (-<1631)
18 Richard BOURNE.3 Born abt 1523 in of Greyfriars' Priory, St.
Paul's Parish, Bedfordshire, England.
Child:
9 i. Elizabeth (1548-1584)
20 James NEEDHAM. Born in of Wymondley Priory, Little Wymondley,
Hertfordshire, England.6 James died on 22 Sep 1544 in Boulogne,
France.6 Buried in Church of Our Lady, Boulogne, France.8 on 22 Sep
1544 Boulogne, France.6,8
James married Alice ??8.
They had the following children:
10 i. John (-1591)
ii. William4
21 Alice ??8
36 William BOURNE. Born in of Greyfriars' Priory, St. Paul's Parish,
Bedfordshire, England. William died in 1544.
William married Elizabeth ??.
They had one child:
18 i. Richard (~1523-)
37 Elizabeth ??
40 Christopher NEEDHAM. Born in of Needham Grange, Grangemill,
Derbyshire, England.6
Child:
20 i. James (-1544)
80 John NEEDHAM.8 Born in of High Needham, Derbyshire, England.8
Child:
40 i. Christopher
Sources
1. Brayton, John A., “The Ancestry of Frances (Baldwin) Townshend-
Jones-Williams,” The Virginia Genealogist.
2. “Genealogies of Virginia Families#2,” http://www.genealogy.com.
3. Washington, S. H. Lee, “The Virginia Washingtons and the Manor of
Newton Bromswold,” William & Mary Quarterly, 2nd Series,, Vol. 20,
No. 3, 456-467, July, 1940.
4. Visitation of Hertfordshire, 1572 and 1634, web.ukonline.co.uk/
nigel.battysmith.
5. Visitation of London, 1633, 1634, and 1635.
6. Tighe, William J., “The Gentlemen Pensioners in Elizabethan
Politics and Government,” 1984, Cambridge, Ph.D. thesis.
7. Chauncy, Sir Henry, The Historical Antiquities of Hertfordshire,
London, 1826.
8. Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, http://www.oxforddnb.com.
-------------------------------
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John Brandon
Re: Capt. Matthew Bridges of Alcester, co. Warwick, and wife
Apparently Capt. Robert Bridges' house burned in 1648, but note the
statement that he "went home" [i.e., returned to England], rather than
died ...
http://books.google.com/books?lr=&q=%22 ... arch+Books
statement that he "went home" [i.e., returned to England], rather than
died ...
http://books.google.com/books?lr=&q=%22 ... arch+Books
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Ida de Tony, Mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisb
[Cross-postings removed]
"Leticia Cluff" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
I'm not sure that there ever was a "true" face, but formerly Hines was known
to face in the general direction of reality and sense on occasions.
For a useful summary of the teasing that Richardson had engaged in, and that
Hines called him on, see Paul Reed's post of 26 September 2000 confirming
the mistaken identifation with Ada de Chaumont:
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/ge ... 0970002404
My understanding is that Richardson abandoned his Ada de Chaumont hypothesis
very shortly before this was due to be published. No doubt there is
someone - apart from the inveterate plagiarist himself, that is - who could
confirm or correct this impression from personal knowledge of what Faris was
intending to publish that had been prepared by Richardson. This in turn
appears to have been based not on his own work but on an error in VCH Oxford
where Ada was mistakenly called "Ida" de Chaumont, and wrongly described as
Henry II's mistress.
Far from being a researcher on his own behalf, Richardson is like a demented
bower bird that drags along anything blue to adorn its home, even if the
attractive tinge happens to come from toxic mould.
Note that this practiced deceiver has not tried to defend himself against
the charge of filching Rosie Bevan's thorough and original analysis of the
relevant Durham Liber Vitae entries, or his arbitrary and unsubstantiated
claims for Henri Malo intended to detract from Ray Phair's due credit.
Apparently there is a limit to Richardson's inventiveness with lies.
Peter Stewart
"Leticia Cluff" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 00:57:15 -0000, "D. Spencer Hines"
[email protected]> wrote:
Pogue Stewart is obviously still suffering from the severe and disabling
aftereffects of that hard knock his noodle took on the cobblestone at
Oxford, when he was drunkenly thrown from his motorcycle.
Hines never does anything without a clear purpose and strategy -- and he
remembers quite clearly what he has done -- unlike Pogue Stewart -- who
suffers from continuing Mayfly Memory Syndrome.
Why the third person, Spencer? Who is the puppet master writing these
things about you and posting them under your name?
Or is it you yourself wielding the keyboard and trying to avoid
potential difficulties with personal pronouns after your lessons from
the dogged but somewhat tiresome James Hogg?
Many thanks to jhigginsgen, by the way, for another entertaining
reminder of the true face (or is it the volte-face?) of DSH.
I'm not sure that there ever was a "true" face, but formerly Hines was known
to face in the general direction of reality and sense on occasions.
For a useful summary of the teasing that Richardson had engaged in, and that
Hines called him on, see Paul Reed's post of 26 September 2000 confirming
the mistaken identifation with Ada de Chaumont:
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/ge ... 0970002404
My understanding is that Richardson abandoned his Ada de Chaumont hypothesis
very shortly before this was due to be published. No doubt there is
someone - apart from the inveterate plagiarist himself, that is - who could
confirm or correct this impression from personal knowledge of what Faris was
intending to publish that had been prepared by Richardson. This in turn
appears to have been based not on his own work but on an error in VCH Oxford
where Ada was mistakenly called "Ida" de Chaumont, and wrongly described as
Henry II's mistress.
Far from being a researcher on his own behalf, Richardson is like a demented
bower bird that drags along anything blue to adorn its home, even if the
attractive tinge happens to come from toxic mould.
Note that this practiced deceiver has not tried to defend himself against
the charge of filching Rosie Bevan's thorough and original analysis of the
relevant Durham Liber Vitae entries, or his arbitrary and unsubstantiated
claims for Henri Malo intended to detract from Ray Phair's due credit.
Apparently there is a limit to Richardson's inventiveness with lies.
Peter Stewart
-
John Brandon
Re: Capt. Matthew Bridges of Alcester, co. Warwick, and wife
I've been through _Essex Quarterly Court Records_ and find no actual
statement that Capt. Robert Bridges was deceased.
I've also been through _Records of the Governor and Company of the
Massachusetts-Bay_, and likewise find no statement he was dead. I do
find, however, under date of 23 October 1657, "Itt was voted by the
whole Court, that Capt Robert Bridges shall haue thirty two pounds one
shilling & eight pence allowed him for his sallery" (vol. 4, part 1,
p. 319).
So it seems wrong that many secondary sources state he died in 1656.
http://books.google.com/books?id=j-4OAA ... #PPA151,M1
http://books.google.com/books?id=4da_fy ... 2+1656&lr=
It is also odd to me that even though most of these secondary sources
state he was an important investor in and promoter of the Lynn
Ironworks, he is never mentioned at all in Edward N. Hartley's book.
(I'm convinced a much better and more accurate history of the
Ironworks _could_ be written.)
statement that Capt. Robert Bridges was deceased.
I've also been through _Records of the Governor and Company of the
Massachusetts-Bay_, and likewise find no statement he was dead. I do
find, however, under date of 23 October 1657, "Itt was voted by the
whole Court, that Capt Robert Bridges shall haue thirty two pounds one
shilling & eight pence allowed him for his sallery" (vol. 4, part 1,
p. 319).
So it seems wrong that many secondary sources state he died in 1656.
http://books.google.com/books?id=j-4OAA ... #PPA151,M1
http://books.google.com/books?id=4da_fy ... 2+1656&lr=
It is also odd to me that even though most of these secondary sources
state he was an important investor in and promoter of the Lynn
Ironworks, he is never mentioned at all in Edward N. Hartley's book.
(I'm convinced a much better and more accurate history of the
Ironworks _could_ be written.)
-
Bob Turcott
RE: Turcus, Turcot, etc. in 10th-century Burgundy (was re: c
pg, this is what I have:
Turcaud, Turcault Nom surtout porté en Vendée. Diminutif de Turc, sobriquet qui a pu s'appliquer à un homme au teint basané ou à celui qui était allé en Orient. Variante : Turcot.
Turcotte Variante de Turcot (éventuellement matronyme), lui-même diminutif de Turc (voir Leturc pour le sens).
plus more variants!!!:::
Turcat, Turcatte,Tourcat,Turquat,Torcat, Turcot,Turcott,Turcotte,Turcas,Turca,Turqua,Turca,
Turqa,Turcal ,Turcat,Turcate,Tourcattt,tourcatte,TourcateTurquate,Turquatt,Turquatte,
Torquat, Torquet,Torquate,Torquette,Torquatt, turquatte,
torquat., torquet, Torquate,torquete, torquette, Torquat, turcault, Turcaud, plus many more!!!
_________________________________________________________________
Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live.
http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?o ... ife_012008
Turcaud, Turcault Nom surtout porté en Vendée. Diminutif de Turc, sobriquet qui a pu s'appliquer à un homme au teint basané ou à celui qui était allé en Orient. Variante : Turcot.
Turcotte Variante de Turcot (éventuellement matronyme), lui-même diminutif de Turc (voir Leturc pour le sens).
plus more variants!!!:::
Turcat, Turcatte,Tourcat,Turquat,Torcat, Turcot,Turcott,Turcotte,Turcas,Turca,Turqua,Turca,
Turqa,Turcal ,Turcat,Turcate,Tourcattt,tourcatte,TourcateTurquate,Turquatt,Turquatte,
Torquat, Torquet,Torquate,Torquette,Torquatt, turquatte,
torquat., torquet, Torquate,torquete, torquette, Torquat, turcault, Turcaud, plus many more!!!
From: [email protected]
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 04:32:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Turcus, Turcot, etc. in 10th-century Burgundy (was re: crusaders)
To: [email protected]; [email protected]
Yes, all the sources I have on this name indicate that the name is from the
Loire region - M-t Morlet, in her Dictionnaire des Patronymes de France, 1991,
says as much. It is a soubriquet (nickname) and seems to have been a
matronym too!
Pg
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-
Gjest
Re: Fw: Was Elizabeth of York Heiress to the Throne?
In a message dated 2/2/2008 4:32:58 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
My guess is that Elizabeth of York _was_ heir. Henry VII married her because
she was the senior heir of the House of York.
She was heir when she was born until her brother Edward V was born and then
became heir again after the disappearance of her two brothers. The mother of
Henry VII signed herself as though she was queen, implying that she _really_
should have been queen before her son.
===================
heir presumptive and heir apparent.
An heir only occurs when they inherit.
But in general was a woman considered "in that time" to even be able to be
heir presumptive to the throne? Don't we have to go back to Matilda to find
this? Was any prior woman actually stated, in her time, to be heir
presumptive? Or is this editor creating a "modern view" that de jure she would be heir
presumptive.
Will Johnson
**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/n ... 3000000025
48)
[email protected] writes:
My guess is that Elizabeth of York _was_ heir. Henry VII married her because
she was the senior heir of the House of York.
She was heir when she was born until her brother Edward V was born and then
became heir again after the disappearance of her two brothers. The mother of
Henry VII signed herself as though she was queen, implying that she _really_
should have been queen before her son.
===================
heir presumptive and heir apparent.
An heir only occurs when they inherit.
But in general was a woman considered "in that time" to even be able to be
heir presumptive to the throne? Don't we have to go back to Matilda to find
this? Was any prior woman actually stated, in her time, to be heir
presumptive? Or is this editor creating a "modern view" that de jure she would be heir
presumptive.
Will Johnson
**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/n ... 3000000025
48)
-
Gjest
Re: The Royal Descents Of 688 Immigrants
In a message dated 2/2/2008 8:30:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
On Jan 25, 8:30 pm, Denis Beauregard <denis.b-at-
[email protected]> wrote:
Perhaps a more managable group would be better to start with...
Let's say anyone who meets all the following criteria:
1). Arrived on the Mayflower or Fortune.
2). Is of Royal Descent
3). Is descended from one of the Magna Carta surities.
Now- anyone have any indea how large that group would be?
I lack Mr. Richardson's bhooks to do a cross reference.
-------------------------------
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the body of the message
For the Verminator, is it Immigrants meeting all three criteria or
latter day descendants ? Because the only immigrants I can think of meeting
those criteria are the More children who came on the Mayflower. and I think
Governor William Bradford`s 1st wife Dorothy Yorke. Richard Warren and Edward
and John Winslow also came on the Mayflower but have no proven RD, as Philippe
de La Noye who came of the Fortunte might provided his grandfather Guilbert
De Lannoy descends from Guilbert de Lannoy, Seigneur de Molembais (died 1462)
who has known Hohenstaufen and Plantagenet ancestry. this possibility was
recently mentioned by Dr Jeremy D Bangs in an article for the Delano Kindred`s
newsletter.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/n ... 3000000025
48)
[email protected] writes:
On Jan 25, 8:30 pm, Denis Beauregard <denis.b-at-
[email protected]> wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 19:29:54 -0600, "John Foster"
[email protected]> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
genealogy software, even. Can it store 50 million names in the future? The
way computer storage is going now, probably. I'm looking at a terabyte
right
I know someone having a set of 3 millions of images of records
(not names, but a complete image). If the average is only 5
records/image and 3 names/record, then he has names of 45 M
people on those records on one disk.
Now, if you have only the data, even with a not very efficient
database (let's say 1000 characters/name), on a 250 gigabyte disk
(which is now standard on a desk computer), you could have
250 M names on the computer.
here at home now. Can the software genealogy database handle that many
names? I'm only going with a "maybe". Besides, I and my own additional
set,
along with the research of half of the people in the world would have to
be
added in there somewhere. Figure 800 million names then. In those 80 years
that it takes with this extra work, there could be another 4 or so new
generations to add.
The largest Quebec databases available in genealogical societies,
all made by many persons, have :
PRDH - 700 000 records, 2 M names
BSQ - 5 M records, over 7.5 names
BMS2000 - 5 M records, perhaps 15 to 20 M names
I think the largest French database has 40 M marriages
None of these databases is maintained with a general purpose genealogy
software...
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique du Nord
-www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1722
-www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
/ | Maintenant sur cédérom, début à 1770 (Version 2008)
oo oo Now on CD-ROM, beginnings to 1770 (2008 Release)
Perhaps a more managable group would be better to start with...
Let's say anyone who meets all the following criteria:
1). Arrived on the Mayflower or Fortune.
2). Is of Royal Descent
3). Is descended from one of the Magna Carta surities.
Now- anyone have any indea how large that group would be?
I lack Mr. Richardson's bhooks to do a cross reference.
-------------------------------
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[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and
the body of the message
For the Verminator, is it Immigrants meeting all three criteria or
latter day descendants ? Because the only immigrants I can think of meeting
those criteria are the More children who came on the Mayflower. and I think
Governor William Bradford`s 1st wife Dorothy Yorke. Richard Warren and Edward
and John Winslow also came on the Mayflower but have no proven RD, as Philippe
de La Noye who came of the Fortunte might provided his grandfather Guilbert
De Lannoy descends from Guilbert de Lannoy, Seigneur de Molembais (died 1462)
who has known Hohenstaufen and Plantagenet ancestry. this possibility was
recently mentioned by Dr Jeremy D Bangs in an article for the Delano Kindred`s
newsletter.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/n ... 3000000025
48)
-
Gjest
Re: Turcus, Turcot, etc. in 10th-century Burgundy (was re: c
On Jan 27, 5:27 pm, Nathaniel Taylor <[email protected]> wrote:
The sources are:
An inhalation of special herbs
and a few bottles of whiskey.
Leslie
Interesting elaboration; thank you.
1. First-century origins in Eastern empire.
2. A hereditary name (Turcus) acquired in antiquity.
3. Tenth-century swarthy physical appearance ("spared due to a
resemblance to the invaders").
4. Tenth-century crest: agnus dei carrying banner with cross.
Again, can you provide a source for any of these statements or claims?
The sources are:
An inhalation of special herbs
and a few bottles of whiskey.
Leslie
-
Mike Stone
Re: Fw: Was Elizabeth of York Heiress to the Throne?
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Yes. This is what I am uncertain about. I was wondering if there was any
evidence that EoY was regarded as heir in 1466-70.
I know the _Lancastrians_ passed a Succession Act which recognised female
descendants of Henry IV as well as male, but of course the Yorkists repealed
that, and I'm not sure if they passed one of their own or what it said.
Since they apparently held that thir superior hereditary right overruled the
recognition by parliament of three successive Lancastrians kings, it is
possible that they considered such an Act unnecessary, but I'm not sure.
--
Mike Stone - Peterborough, England
Always drink upriver from the herd. (song title).
news:[email protected]...
In a message dated 2/2/2008 4:32:58 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
My guess is that Elizabeth of York _was_ heir. Henry VII married her
because
she was the senior heir of the House of York.
She was heir when she was born until her brother Edward V was born and
then
became heir again after the disappearance of her two brothers. The mother
of
Henry VII signed herself as though she was queen, implying that she
_really_
should have been queen before her son.
===================
heir presumptive and heir apparent.
An heir only occurs when they inherit.
But in general was a woman considered "in that time" to even be able to be
heir presumptive to the throne? Don't we have to go back to Matilda to
find
this? Was any prior woman actually stated, in her time, to be heir
presumptive? Or is this editor creating a "modern view" that de jure she
would be heir
presumptive.
Yes. This is what I am uncertain about. I was wondering if there was any
evidence that EoY was regarded as heir in 1466-70.
I know the _Lancastrians_ passed a Succession Act which recognised female
descendants of Henry IV as well as male, but of course the Yorkists repealed
that, and I'm not sure if they passed one of their own or what it said.
Since they apparently held that thir superior hereditary right overruled the
recognition by parliament of three successive Lancastrians kings, it is
possible that they considered such an Act unnecessary, but I'm not sure.
--
Mike Stone - Peterborough, England
Always drink upriver from the herd. (song title).
-
Leticia Cluff
Re: Ida de Tony, Mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisb
On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 19:57:07 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
Aaron, you can be very tiresome.
You may feel that someone here stabbed you in the back,
but it certainly wasn't me.
Tish
<[email protected]> wrote:
persiflage, persiflage, persiflage
~Bret, scion of Charle de Magne
http://Back-stabbing Ancestral Descendants ASSoc.genealogy.medieval
Aaron, you can be very tiresome.
You may feel that someone here stabbed you in the back,
but it certainly wasn't me.
Tish
-
Gjest
Re: Thomas Weaver and Anne de La Bere
In a message dated 2/3/2008 6:10:16 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
Did Kinnard/Kinard/Kynard de La Bere have a daughter named Anne who
married Thomas Weaver (son of Walter Weaver and Maud Burghill) or not?
---------------------
None of the sources you cite are reliable sources.
You need to start either further back or further forward and make the
connections slowly with solid quality sources.
Will Johnson
**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/n ... 3000000025
48)
[email protected] writes:
Did Kinnard/Kinard/Kynard de La Bere have a daughter named Anne who
married Thomas Weaver (son of Walter Weaver and Maud Burghill) or not?
---------------------
None of the sources you cite are reliable sources.
You need to start either further back or further forward and make the
connections slowly with solid quality sources.
Will Johnson
**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/n ... 3000000025
48)
-
Guy Vincent
Re:Elizabeth (Carr) (Fairfax) Kelke (d bef 4 Sep 1604) [SEC=
On Feb 3, 9:41 am, "Tony Hoskins" <[email protected]>
<mailto:[email protected]> wrote:
Good question - I came across the Carrs while looking at the Cawdron
family of Heckington last year - there is a family-tree for them in
Maddison's 'Lincolnshire Pedigrees' which should answer this.
Cheers, Michael
Maddison has Elizabeth as dau of Robert Carr and Elizabeth, dau of
William Cawdron. Robert is shown as son
of George Carr merchant of the staple and Anne Flower, George buried at
Sleaford 10 July 1521, his will dated
27 March 1517. Above George is the statement "See "Genealogist" vol III,
pp. 193-206 for the early CARR pedigree"
"Sketches Illustrative of the Topography & History of New & Old
Sleaford" by R L Wright, John Hughes, William Hughes,
Thomas Orlando Sheldon Jewitt pub 1825 has a pedigree for the Carr
family and states: "It appears by the annexed pedigree,
that Richard Carr, second son of ......, was the earliest known branch
of this family, from whom descended John Carr,
who married a daughter of Sir John Elmedon or Elmedine, knight, by whom
he had two sons, viz. George and James."
The line then proceeds as per Maddison. The above Sleaford publication
is available in full view on Google Books.
Anne Kelke also has a line from the John Clifford, Elizabeth Percy
marriage via her great grandparents, Roger Kelke
and Elizabeth de la See.
Guy Vincent
<mailto:[email protected]> wrote:
> I note that Elizabeth Carr (d.1604), wife of (1) William
Fairfax and (2)
> Christopher Kelke is stated by Douglas Richardson to be
daughter of
> Robert Carr of Sleaford, Lincolnshire [_PA_, 414]. I wonder if
she is
> therefore decended from the Sir Robert Carr of Sleaford who
married
> Margaret Clifford, daughter of Thomas, 8th Lord Clifford
(d.1455). If
> so, Christopher and Elizabeth (Carr) (Fairfax) Kelke's
daughter, Anne
> (Kelke) Leming - ancestress to several of us descending from
William
> Asfordby - would appear to have two lines of descent from
John, 7th Lord
> Clifford (d. 1422) and his wife Elizabeth Percy (d.1436).
Good question - I came across the Carrs while looking at the Cawdron
family of Heckington last year - there is a family-tree for them in
Maddison's 'Lincolnshire Pedigrees' which should answer this.
Cheers, Michael
Maddison has Elizabeth as dau of Robert Carr and Elizabeth, dau of
William Cawdron. Robert is shown as son
of George Carr merchant of the staple and Anne Flower, George buried at
Sleaford 10 July 1521, his will dated
27 March 1517. Above George is the statement "See "Genealogist" vol III,
pp. 193-206 for the early CARR pedigree"
"Sketches Illustrative of the Topography & History of New & Old
Sleaford" by R L Wright, John Hughes, William Hughes,
Thomas Orlando Sheldon Jewitt pub 1825 has a pedigree for the Carr
family and states: "It appears by the annexed pedigree,
that Richard Carr, second son of ......, was the earliest known branch
of this family, from whom descended John Carr,
who married a daughter of Sir John Elmedon or Elmedine, knight, by whom
he had two sons, viz. George and James."
The line then proceeds as per Maddison. The above Sleaford publication
is available in full view on Google Books.
Anne Kelke also has a line from the John Clifford, Elizabeth Percy
marriage via her great grandparents, Roger Kelke
and Elizabeth de la See.
Guy Vincent
-
Mary Zashin
Bounced Email from LvdPas to MZashin re NEEDHAM Family
Dear Mary,
I sent you an e-mail but it bounced back.
Leo
----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Zashin"
[email protected]
To: <[email protected]
Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 6:47 AM
Subject: Re: Is There a Royal Descent for Mary LANGHORNE,Wife of
Robert TOWNSHEND?
Right after I saw this I emailed you as follows:
Hi, Mr. van de Pas, I don't know why I should "bounce" as this
email address has always worked. Oddly, before my last posting I
got an automated response to the effect that the posting was "held
for review" because it was too big. . .but then it apparently went
to the list. Perhaps somehow that's why you bounced? So, my email
is, as always,
[email protected]
And I would be delighted for anything you are willing to tell me.
Also, if you know of good sources for the Needham descent[s] I'm
trying to confirm or disconfirm. Thank, Mary (Polly) Zashin
(Chicago, IL, USA)
Mr. van de Pas, I have noticed that you answer emails to Gen-Med
quickly, but you didn't respond to the above, so therefore I think
you never got it. Is it possible that our email systems are somehow
incompatible? Thanks again for any help you can provide about the
NEEDHAM/LANGHORNE descent. M. Zashin
-
Janet
Richard Lee and Ann Constable
There are folks on line that have Richard Lee parents are John LEE was born
About 1584 in Of, Worcester, , England. He died in Of Worcester, England. He
Married Jane HANCOCK on 21 Oct 1599 in , , , England.
Jane HANCOCK was born about 1590 in Of, Twining, , England. She died in 1639
In England. She married John LEE on 21 Oct 1599 in , , , England.
THIS NOT TRUE!! This drive nuts for can let the folks who this site what
found in books that prove wrong
Anna Constable mother is thought to Hancock.
About Richard Lee family information
Genealogical history of the Lee family of Virginia and Maryland from A.D.
1300 to A.D. 1866
New York: University Pub. Co., 1871, 116 pgs. By Mead, Edward Campbell
Mr Mead from 45-48 does Right Lee family information but on bottom half of
Page 48
Has Thomas Lee, Chief Justice of Ireland in 1608. Had 9 children but only
Two sons
Mr Mead says Thomas oldest son was Launcelot who married twice
1st wife and his children were John, Thomas, and Richard
Mr Mead states that Launcelot family came to Virginia for found a mention of
Launcelot in Bishop Meade's "Old Churches of Virginia"
Mr Mead on page 51 That Richard Lee came to America and was married TWICE.
This where Mr Mead mixes the two families
Note; now our Richard Lee married Ann Constable from other books she was his
Only wife
Lee of Virginia, 1642-1892 : biographical and genealogical sketches of the
Descendants of Colonel Richard Lee, with brief notices of the related
Families of Allerton, Armistead, Ashton, Aylett, Bedinger, Beverley, Bland,
Bolling, Carroll, Carter, Chambers, Corbin, Custis, Diggs, Fairfax, Fitzhugh
Gardner, Grymes, Hanson, Jenings, Jones, Ludwell, Marshall, Mason, Page,
Randolph, Shepherd, Shippen, Tabb, Taylor, Turberville, Washington, and
Others
Philadelphia: Lee, 1895, 624 pgs. By Lee, Edmund Jennings,
Mr Jennings like Mr Mead wants Our Richard Lee to son Launcelot Lee but
Launcelot father was
"Sir John Lee of King's Nordley who died 1605 married Jocosa (Joyce) a
Daughter of John Romney and had issue of EIGHT (8) sons.
1. Thomas Lee, the heir, died 1620 and His son, Launcelot, succeeded him;
6. Richard Lee. The genealogy of the family of Lee of Chester, Bucks and
Oxon, showing the descent of Robert E. Lee from sir John Lee, knight. Burke
Says that there is no doubt that this Richard Lee, bearing the arms of this
Family, is the progenitor of the Robert Edward Lee line who figured in the
Confederacy. Richard Lee, Gent, was granted 1,000 acres on the south side of
Charles River, in York Co., Va. On August 10, 1642. Richard died in 1664.
But neither one of them mention "The Magna Charta Surties 1215 by Frederick
Lewis Weis.
Which on page 92 Line 124
"11 John de Lee B 1398, resided at Coton , 1405, fl. 1425 m Jacosa, dau of
Sir John Packington
12 John Lee B c 1430 of Nordley Regis, Salop, living 1476; m Elizabeth
Daughter of Thomas Cobin of West Bromwich co Stafford
13 Thomas Lee Esq of Nordley Regis d 16 Mar 1526 (Inq. 1526) m Johanna dau
Of Robert Morton, Esq of Houghton, Salop, living 1526 (Generations 10-13: as
Above Vistiation of Shropshire. 1623 page 18)
14 Humphrey Lee B 1506 d 6 Dec 1588 of Coton Hall, Nordley Regis (Inq. P. M.
12 Mar 1589) and Le Hay in Alveley Parish, rebuilt Coton Hall, where he
Reided in 1570; m Katherine bur. Alvely 20 Aug 1691
Daughter of John Blount of Yeo Co. Hereford son of Sir Humphey Blout) by
Elzabeth daughter of John Yeo
15 John Lee ESQ of Coton in Nordley Regis in the Parish of Alveley only son
B 1530 bur. Chesham Co Buckingtham, 13 Jun 1605 (will dated 17 May 1605 pr.
14 Jun 1605)
M (settlement 24 Jun 1553, Joyce Romney only dau of John Romney, gent of
Lulsley
Co Worcestor; she was bur at Alvely, 4 Dec 1609 her mother was the dau of
John Berrington of Stock
16 Richard Lee 6th son B Coton 1563 bapt Alvely 6 Oct 1563; mention his
Father will 1605 and in the will of his father brother Gilbert Lee 1621 m
Alveley 21 Oct 1599 Elizabeth Bendy dau of John Bendy
17 Colonel Richard Lee B Nordley Regis ca 1613; of Statford Langthorne, co
Essex; Came to Virginia, 1640; Secretary of State, Virginia, 1649-1652 and
Of the Council, 1651-1664, will dated 6 Feb 1663/64; d at Dividing Creek,
Northampton Co, Va. March 1664; will proved 10 Jan 1664/65; m Jamestown,
Virginia, 1641 Anne Constable
(Generation 14-17: Virginia Magazine of History and Biography, vol 62 No1,
PP. 6-14; Hendricks, Lee of Virginia, PP. 24-26; Magazine of the Society of
Lees of Virginia VIII (May 1931)"
Richard and Ann Constable Lee daughter Ann married Thomas Youell my ancestor
Janet Ariciu
About 1584 in Of, Worcester, , England. He died in Of Worcester, England. He
Married Jane HANCOCK on 21 Oct 1599 in , , , England.
Jane HANCOCK was born about 1590 in Of, Twining, , England. She died in 1639
In England. She married John LEE on 21 Oct 1599 in , , , England.
THIS NOT TRUE!! This drive nuts for can let the folks who this site what
found in books that prove wrong
Anna Constable mother is thought to Hancock.
About Richard Lee family information
Genealogical history of the Lee family of Virginia and Maryland from A.D.
1300 to A.D. 1866
New York: University Pub. Co., 1871, 116 pgs. By Mead, Edward Campbell
Mr Mead from 45-48 does Right Lee family information but on bottom half of
Page 48
Has Thomas Lee, Chief Justice of Ireland in 1608. Had 9 children but only
Two sons
Mr Mead says Thomas oldest son was Launcelot who married twice
1st wife and his children were John, Thomas, and Richard
Mr Mead states that Launcelot family came to Virginia for found a mention of
Launcelot in Bishop Meade's "Old Churches of Virginia"
Mr Mead on page 51 That Richard Lee came to America and was married TWICE.
This where Mr Mead mixes the two families
Note; now our Richard Lee married Ann Constable from other books she was his
Only wife
Lee of Virginia, 1642-1892 : biographical and genealogical sketches of the
Descendants of Colonel Richard Lee, with brief notices of the related
Families of Allerton, Armistead, Ashton, Aylett, Bedinger, Beverley, Bland,
Bolling, Carroll, Carter, Chambers, Corbin, Custis, Diggs, Fairfax, Fitzhugh
Gardner, Grymes, Hanson, Jenings, Jones, Ludwell, Marshall, Mason, Page,
Randolph, Shepherd, Shippen, Tabb, Taylor, Turberville, Washington, and
Others
Philadelphia: Lee, 1895, 624 pgs. By Lee, Edmund Jennings,
Mr Jennings like Mr Mead wants Our Richard Lee to son Launcelot Lee but
Launcelot father was
"Sir John Lee of King's Nordley who died 1605 married Jocosa (Joyce) a
Daughter of John Romney and had issue of EIGHT (8) sons.
1. Thomas Lee, the heir, died 1620 and His son, Launcelot, succeeded him;
6. Richard Lee. The genealogy of the family of Lee of Chester, Bucks and
Oxon, showing the descent of Robert E. Lee from sir John Lee, knight. Burke
Says that there is no doubt that this Richard Lee, bearing the arms of this
Family, is the progenitor of the Robert Edward Lee line who figured in the
Confederacy. Richard Lee, Gent, was granted 1,000 acres on the south side of
Charles River, in York Co., Va. On August 10, 1642. Richard died in 1664.
But neither one of them mention "The Magna Charta Surties 1215 by Frederick
Lewis Weis.
Which on page 92 Line 124
"11 John de Lee B 1398, resided at Coton , 1405, fl. 1425 m Jacosa, dau of
Sir John Packington
12 John Lee B c 1430 of Nordley Regis, Salop, living 1476; m Elizabeth
Daughter of Thomas Cobin of West Bromwich co Stafford
13 Thomas Lee Esq of Nordley Regis d 16 Mar 1526 (Inq. 1526) m Johanna dau
Of Robert Morton, Esq of Houghton, Salop, living 1526 (Generations 10-13: as
Above Vistiation of Shropshire. 1623 page 18)
14 Humphrey Lee B 1506 d 6 Dec 1588 of Coton Hall, Nordley Regis (Inq. P. M.
12 Mar 1589) and Le Hay in Alveley Parish, rebuilt Coton Hall, where he
Reided in 1570; m Katherine bur. Alvely 20 Aug 1691
Daughter of John Blount of Yeo Co. Hereford son of Sir Humphey Blout) by
Elzabeth daughter of John Yeo
15 John Lee ESQ of Coton in Nordley Regis in the Parish of Alveley only son
B 1530 bur. Chesham Co Buckingtham, 13 Jun 1605 (will dated 17 May 1605 pr.
14 Jun 1605)
M (settlement 24 Jun 1553, Joyce Romney only dau of John Romney, gent of
Lulsley
Co Worcestor; she was bur at Alvely, 4 Dec 1609 her mother was the dau of
John Berrington of Stock
16 Richard Lee 6th son B Coton 1563 bapt Alvely 6 Oct 1563; mention his
Father will 1605 and in the will of his father brother Gilbert Lee 1621 m
Alveley 21 Oct 1599 Elizabeth Bendy dau of John Bendy
17 Colonel Richard Lee B Nordley Regis ca 1613; of Statford Langthorne, co
Essex; Came to Virginia, 1640; Secretary of State, Virginia, 1649-1652 and
Of the Council, 1651-1664, will dated 6 Feb 1663/64; d at Dividing Creek,
Northampton Co, Va. March 1664; will proved 10 Jan 1664/65; m Jamestown,
Virginia, 1641 Anne Constable
(Generation 14-17: Virginia Magazine of History and Biography, vol 62 No1,
PP. 6-14; Hendricks, Lee of Virginia, PP. 24-26; Magazine of the Society of
Lees of Virginia VIII (May 1931)"
Richard and Ann Constable Lee daughter Ann married Thomas Youell my ancestor
Janet Ariciu
-
M. de la Fayette
RE: Tristan de Luna and his family
I beg your pardon.... Have we met before? I don't think so.
This is a commune registration, used by various members of "Mare Nostrum"
Forum.
Do you unterstand spanish? Good, so you can undestand what means in english
"Hico de puta"?
I strongly hope
Saludos Amigo!
Pedro
Now, could go back to the question?
Ahora, silentados los perros, se puede regresar a my pregunta?
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected]
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 1:48 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Tristan de Luna and his family
On Feb 4, 11:45 pm, [email protected] wrote:
Recte: *Aaron* Parmenter. Sorry - so many hydra-heads, it's hard to keep up
with them all!
MA-R
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
This is a commune registration, used by various members of "Mare Nostrum"
Forum.
Do you unterstand spanish? Good, so you can undestand what means in english
"Hico de puta"?
I strongly hope
Saludos Amigo!
Pedro
Now, could go back to the question?
Ahora, silentados los perros, se puede regresar a my pregunta?
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected]
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 1:48 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Tristan de Luna and his family
On Feb 4, 11:45 pm, [email protected] wrote:
Am I missing any? Can we add 'Adrian Parmenter' to the list, 'Pedro'
old amigo?
Recte: *Aaron* Parmenter. Sorry - so many hydra-heads, it's hard to keep up
with them all!
MA-R
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
-
Mike Stone
Re: Fw: Was Elizabeth of York Heiress to the Throne?
I think I may now have found a (reasonably) definite answer. Chapter 3 of
Michael Hicks' _The Prince in the Tower_ contains the following passage
"Henceforth it was the Prince's soul that was coupled with those of his
parents in licenses in mortmain and replaced that of his sister Elizabeth,
over whom he now took precedence - -"
Assuming that Prince Edward was included on such licences by virtue of being
heir to the throne (and it's hard to see why else) then the previous
inclusion of Elizabeth's name seems to pretty clearly indicate that _she_
was regarded as Edward IV's heir during the period when she had no brother.
This would also explain why Edward IV agreed to Elizabeth's 1469 betrothal
to George Neville, nephew and heir-male of Warwick the Kingmaker. Times were
uncertain, and should anything happen to the King, this would give Warwick
the strongest of motives for upholding Elizabeth's right to succeed - a kind
of "insurance policy".
Anyway, thanks for all responses.
--
Mike Stone - Peterborough, England
Always drink upriver from the herd. (song title).
"Mike Stone" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Michael Hicks' _The Prince in the Tower_ contains the following passage
"Henceforth it was the Prince's soul that was coupled with those of his
parents in licenses in mortmain and replaced that of his sister Elizabeth,
over whom he now took precedence - -"
Assuming that Prince Edward was included on such licences by virtue of being
heir to the throne (and it's hard to see why else) then the previous
inclusion of Elizabeth's name seems to pretty clearly indicate that _she_
was regarded as Edward IV's heir during the period when she had no brother.
This would also explain why Edward IV agreed to Elizabeth's 1469 betrothal
to George Neville, nephew and heir-male of Warwick the Kingmaker. Times were
uncertain, and should anything happen to the King, this would give Warwick
the strongest of motives for upholding Elizabeth's right to succeed - a kind
of "insurance policy".
Anyway, thanks for all responses.
--
Mike Stone - Peterborough, England
Always drink upriver from the herd. (song title).
"Mike Stone" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
In a message dated 2/2/2008 4:32:58 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
My guess is that Elizabeth of York _was_ heir. Henry VII married her
because
she was the senior heir of the House of York.
She was heir when she was born until her brother Edward V was born and
then
became heir again after the disappearance of her two brothers. The
mother
of
Henry VII signed herself as though she was queen, implying that she
_really_
should have been queen before her son.
===================
heir presumptive and heir apparent.
An heir only occurs when they inherit.
But in general was a woman considered "in that time" to even be able to
be
heir presumptive to the throne? Don't we have to go back to Matilda to
find
this? Was any prior woman actually stated, in her time, to be heir
presumptive? Or is this editor creating a "modern view" that de jure
she
would be heir
presumptive.
Yes. This is what I am uncertain about. I was wondering if there was any
evidence that EoY was regarded as heir in 1466-70.
I know the _Lancastrians_ passed a Succession Act which recognised female
descendants of Henry IV as well as male, but of course the Yorkists
repealed
that, and I'm not sure if they passed one of their own or what it said.
Since they apparently held that thir superior hereditary right overruled
the
recognition by parliament of three successive Lancastrians kings, it is
possible that they considered such an Act unnecessary, but I'm not sure.
--
Mike Stone - Peterborough, England
Always drink upriver from the herd. (song title).
-
Gjest
Re: Elizabeth (Carr) (Fairfax) Kelke (d bef 4 Sep 1604) [SE
On Feb 4, 3:21 pm, "Guy Vincent" <[email protected]> wrote:
Thanks, Guy.
I think I am right in reading this as follows:
a. - Carr
b. Richard Carr, second son - 'ancestor' of:
...
1. John Carr, married Miss Elmedon
2. George Carr d 1521
3. Robert Carr of Sleaford d 1590
4. Elizabeth Carr married (i) William Fairfax and (ii) Christopher
Kelke
What is unclear to me is:
- whether John Carr was the son of Richard Carr
- of whom was Richard Carr the second son, and
- whether this Richard Carr is to be identified with RC who married
Margaret Clifford
The only reference I have uncovered is the marriage licence from 12
April 1467, reproduced in Testamenta Eboracensia vol III (1865) p 338,
citing the Register of George Neville i 90b:
"Licence to the Rector of Catton to marry in the church there Robert
Carre, domestic servant of Richard, Earl of Warwick, and Margaret
Clifford"
MA-R
Maddison has Elizabeth as dau of Robert Carr and Elizabeth, dau of
William Cawdron. Robert is shown as son
of George Carr merchant of the staple and Anne Flower, George buried at
Sleaford 10 July 1521, his will dated
27 March 1517. Above George is the statement "See "Genealogist" vol III,
pp. 193-206 for the early CARR pedigree"
"Sketches Illustrative of the Topography & History of New & Old
Sleaford" by R L Wright, John Hughes, William Hughes,
Thomas Orlando Sheldon Jewitt pub 1825 has a pedigree for the Carr
family and states: "It appears by the annexed pedigree,
that Richard Carr, second son of ......, was the earliest known branch
of this family, from whom descended John Carr,
who married a daughter of Sir John Elmedon or Elmedine, knight, by whom
he had two sons, viz. George and James."
Thanks, Guy.
I think I am right in reading this as follows:
a. - Carr
b. Richard Carr, second son - 'ancestor' of:
...
1. John Carr, married Miss Elmedon
2. George Carr d 1521
3. Robert Carr of Sleaford d 1590
4. Elizabeth Carr married (i) William Fairfax and (ii) Christopher
Kelke
What is unclear to me is:
- whether John Carr was the son of Richard Carr
- of whom was Richard Carr the second son, and
- whether this Richard Carr is to be identified with RC who married
Margaret Clifford
The only reference I have uncovered is the marriage licence from 12
April 1467, reproduced in Testamenta Eboracensia vol III (1865) p 338,
citing the Register of George Neville i 90b:
"Licence to the Rector of Catton to marry in the church there Robert
Carre, domestic servant of Richard, Earl of Warwick, and Margaret
Clifford"
MA-R
-
Merilyn Pedrick
Re: Question
Dear Cody
Welcome to the Gen-Med list.
It's a matter of sorting out the pearls from the swine, and there are
several swine on this list, whom most of us ignore. Some brave souls get
stuck in to them and for this they are to be commended.
On the positive side, there are a good many serious scholars who have always
contributed very useful information. If it weren't for them I wouldn't have
found my medieval ancestors.
So hang in there, and delete the idiots, and you will find much to help you
on your way.
Best wishes
Merilyn Pedrick
-------Original Message-------
From: Cody Phoenix
Date: 5/02/2008 12:34:34 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Question
Just curious, does this list actually ever discuss issues in a civil manner
or is this just another place for people to bicker? I've been on list 2
days now and have seen nothing productive and if that's the way the list
rolls I'd like to know now so I can remove myself and not clog up my mailbox
with trash.
Cody Marie
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Welcome to the Gen-Med list.
It's a matter of sorting out the pearls from the swine, and there are
several swine on this list, whom most of us ignore. Some brave souls get
stuck in to them and for this they are to be commended.
On the positive side, there are a good many serious scholars who have always
contributed very useful information. If it weren't for them I wouldn't have
found my medieval ancestors.
So hang in there, and delete the idiots, and you will find much to help you
on your way.
Best wishes
Merilyn Pedrick
-------Original Message-------
From: Cody Phoenix
Date: 5/02/2008 12:34:34 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Question
Just curious, does this list actually ever discuss issues in a civil manner
or is this just another place for people to bicker? I've been on list 2
days now and have seen nothing productive and if that's the way the list
rolls I'd like to know now so I can remove myself and not clog up my mailbox
with trash.
Cody Marie
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
-
Gjest
Re: Question
In a message dated 2/4/2008 2:35:33 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
this list is a royal as its subject, fulla royal pains in the a$$
thinking you musta bow and scrape, kiss their royal a$$
hierarchy matters most, taf is the reigning kingly a$$
subjects, subordinates, thrones and majesterial B.S.>>
----------------
It's poetry so I have to give it some leeway.
However I say, I didn't vote for his tafness
I consider myself to be just as potential
For any throne vacant, should one be waiting.
Now bow before me my mocking friend
And grant that I am your superior
Not only in matters genealogical
But also in poetry of the purile sort.
Will Johnson
**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/n ... 3000000025
48)
[email protected] writes:
this list is a royal as its subject, fulla royal pains in the a$$
thinking you musta bow and scrape, kiss their royal a$$
hierarchy matters most, taf is the reigning kingly a$$
subjects, subordinates, thrones and majesterial B.S.>>
----------------
It's poetry so I have to give it some leeway.
However I say, I didn't vote for his tafness
I consider myself to be just as potential
For any throne vacant, should one be waiting.
Now bow before me my mocking friend
And grant that I am your superior
Not only in matters genealogical
But also in poetry of the purile sort.
Will Johnson
**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/n ... 3000000025
48)
-
maria emma escobar
RE: GEN-MEDIEVAL Digest, Vol 3, Issue 173
Finding Tristán de Luna and his family
Try with the article. I can not find the link between Nº 2 and 3: the second Carlos and Tristán
http://es.f263.mail.yahoo.com/ym/ShowLe ... &box=Inbox
No es de buena educación incluir insultos en los mensajes que leemos todos los miembros del foro, como se hace en los mensajes anteriores sobre este tema.
Mee
---------------------------------
¿Con Mascota por primera vez? - Sé un mejor Amigo
Entra en Yahoo! Respuestas.
Try with the article. I can not find the link between Nº 2 and 3: the second Carlos and Tristán
http://es.f263.mail.yahoo.com/ym/ShowLe ... &box=Inbox
No es de buena educación incluir insultos en los mensajes que leemos todos los miembros del foro, como se hace en los mensajes anteriores sobre este tema.
Mee
---------------------------------
¿Con Mascota por primera vez? - Sé un mejor Amigo
Entra en Yahoo! Respuestas.
-
Duvall, Jeffery A
RE: OT: Is There a Royal Descent for Mary LANGHORNE, Wife o
I've been doing my best to forget it.
Jeff Duvall
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Brandon
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 11:57 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Is There a Royal Descent for Mary LANGHORNE, Wife of Robert TOWNSHEND?
It looks like Paris Hilton is your cousin. That's hot.
http://www.wargs.com/other/hilton.html
-------------------------------
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Jeff Duvall
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Brandon
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 11:57 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Is There a Royal Descent for Mary LANGHORNE, Wife of Robert TOWNSHEND?
It looks like Paris Hilton is your cousin. That's hot.
http://www.wargs.com/other/hilton.html
-------------------------------
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-
Tony Hoskins
Re: Elizabeth (Carr) (Fairfax) Kelke (d bef 4 Sep 1604)
John Ravilious was kind enough to contact me with this:
Robert Carr of Sleaford, Lincolnshire's 1590 MI:
' Here lieth bvried Robert Carre, Esqvire, who by his
first wife Elizabeth ye davghter of William Cawdron,
Esqyire, had yssve 4 sonnes & 3 davghters. George
Carre, his eldest sonne, by Marie the davghter of Ambrose
Sutton, Esqvire, had yssve Robert Carre, the nowe
heire living. Robert Carre, his seconde sonne, first
married Marie ye davghter of ... Earl of Worcester,
then widdow to ... Lord Gray of Wilton,
& afterwardes he married Cassandra ye davghter
of ... Price, Esqvire. William Carre his thirde
sonne, married Bridgett the davghter of Sr John
Chaworth, Knight, one of the Gentlewoemen of ye
Qveene's Ma... Privie Chamber. And Edward Carre
his fovrth sonne, married Katheriue ye davghter
of Charles Bolle, Esqvire. Elizabeth his eldest
davghter, first married William Fairefaxe, Esqvire,
& afterwards Christopher Kelke, Esqvire. Anne
his seconde davghter, first married Robert
Whitchcote, Esquire, & afterwards Christopher
Legerde, Esqvire. And Bridgett his third davghtr
married Richard Rosseter, Esqvire.
The first saide Robert Carre, secondlie married
Anne the davghter of Sr. George Tailboyes,
Knight, then widdow to Sr. Edward Dymocke,
Knight. And thirdlie Anne the davghter of
Charles Knivett, and died, without yssve
by them, the xi daie of September, Anno
Domini 1590.
Over the inscription is the following motto.
Christus nichi vita, el mors nichi lucrum. '
[James Creasey, _Sketches, Illustrative of the Topography and History
of New and Old Sleaford_ (1825). pp. 55-56].
Thanks, Guy for your email. When I initially referred to the two
possible descents of Anne (Kelke) Leming from John, 7th Lord Clifford,
one of those was the Wentworth/de la See descent, of which I was already
aware. If this Carr descent proves correct, then Anne's parents, husband
and wife, Christopher and Elizabeth (Carr) (Fairfax) Kelke, may have
been about 5th cousins, making the second descent to which I referred.
I have found a tantalising detail. In November 1559, a certain Richard
Carr was replaced as Master of Magdalene College, Oxford, by Roger Kelke
(1524-1576), uncle of the Christopher Kelke who married Elizabeth Carr:
"Kelke, Roger (1523/4–1576), college head, was the fourth son of
Christopher Kelke (c.1491–1524) of Barnetby-le-Wold and Great Kelk,
Lincolnshire, and his wife, Isabell (c.1495–1559/60), daughter of
Robert Girlington of Frodingham, Lincolnshire. He graduated BA at
Cambridge in 1543–4, became a fellow of St John's College in 1545, and
proceeded MA in 1547. He was preacher of St John's from 25 April 1552
and was elected a senior fellow of the college on 19 October.
Cecil, chancellor of the university and himself a member of St John's
and Kelke's near contemporary, seems to have been responsible for the
latter's appointment in November by the visitor, Thomas Howard, fourth
duke of Norfolk, as master of Magdalene College, replacing the deprived
Richard Carr."
[N. G. Jones, ‘Kelke, Roger (1523/4–1576)’, Oxford Dictionary of
National Biography, Oxford University Press, Sept 2004].
Many thanks, again, John; also thanks to Guy, Michael, and Mr. Higgins.
All this helps flesh out my hitherto neglected Kelke (etc.) ancestry.
Tony
Robert Carr of Sleaford, Lincolnshire's 1590 MI:
' Here lieth bvried Robert Carre, Esqvire, who by his
first wife Elizabeth ye davghter of William Cawdron,
Esqyire, had yssve 4 sonnes & 3 davghters. George
Carre, his eldest sonne, by Marie the davghter of Ambrose
Sutton, Esqvire, had yssve Robert Carre, the nowe
heire living. Robert Carre, his seconde sonne, first
married Marie ye davghter of ... Earl of Worcester,
then widdow to ... Lord Gray of Wilton,
& afterwardes he married Cassandra ye davghter
of ... Price, Esqvire. William Carre his thirde
sonne, married Bridgett the davghter of Sr John
Chaworth, Knight, one of the Gentlewoemen of ye
Qveene's Ma... Privie Chamber. And Edward Carre
his fovrth sonne, married Katheriue ye davghter
of Charles Bolle, Esqvire. Elizabeth his eldest
davghter, first married William Fairefaxe, Esqvire,
& afterwards Christopher Kelke, Esqvire. Anne
his seconde davghter, first married Robert
Whitchcote, Esquire, & afterwards Christopher
Legerde, Esqvire. And Bridgett his third davghtr
married Richard Rosseter, Esqvire.
The first saide Robert Carre, secondlie married
Anne the davghter of Sr. George Tailboyes,
Knight, then widdow to Sr. Edward Dymocke,
Knight. And thirdlie Anne the davghter of
Charles Knivett, and died, without yssve
by them, the xi daie of September, Anno
Domini 1590.
Over the inscription is the following motto.
Christus nichi vita, el mors nichi lucrum. '
[James Creasey, _Sketches, Illustrative of the Topography and History
of New and Old Sleaford_ (1825). pp. 55-56].
Thanks, Guy for your email. When I initially referred to the two
possible descents of Anne (Kelke) Leming from John, 7th Lord Clifford,
one of those was the Wentworth/de la See descent, of which I was already
aware. If this Carr descent proves correct, then Anne's parents, husband
and wife, Christopher and Elizabeth (Carr) (Fairfax) Kelke, may have
been about 5th cousins, making the second descent to which I referred.
I have found a tantalising detail. In November 1559, a certain Richard
Carr was replaced as Master of Magdalene College, Oxford, by Roger Kelke
(1524-1576), uncle of the Christopher Kelke who married Elizabeth Carr:
"Kelke, Roger (1523/4–1576), college head, was the fourth son of
Christopher Kelke (c.1491–1524) of Barnetby-le-Wold and Great Kelk,
Lincolnshire, and his wife, Isabell (c.1495–1559/60), daughter of
Robert Girlington of Frodingham, Lincolnshire. He graduated BA at
Cambridge in 1543–4, became a fellow of St John's College in 1545, and
proceeded MA in 1547. He was preacher of St John's from 25 April 1552
and was elected a senior fellow of the college on 19 October.
Cecil, chancellor of the university and himself a member of St John's
and Kelke's near contemporary, seems to have been responsible for the
latter's appointment in November by the visitor, Thomas Howard, fourth
duke of Norfolk, as master of Magdalene College, replacing the deprived
Richard Carr."
[N. G. Jones, ‘Kelke, Roger (1523/4–1576)’, Oxford Dictionary of
National Biography, Oxford University Press, Sept 2004].
Many thanks, again, John; also thanks to Guy, Michael, and Mr. Higgins.
All this helps flesh out my hitherto neglected Kelke (etc.) ancestry.
Tony
-
Tony Hoskins
Re: Lady Diana's Ancestry
Wondering what Vivian's Devon and Cornwall Visitations might say on this
(despite their un-authoritativeness). Have you checked these, Leo? Huge
family, with a good deal of confusion particularly between the Lanherene
and Trerice branches.
Tony
(despite their un-authoritativeness). Have you checked these, Leo? Huge
family, with a good deal of confusion particularly between the Lanherene
and Trerice branches.
Tony
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Lady Diana's Ancestry
Dear Tony,
I do not have access to those. Add to this your observations of
"un-authoritiveness" and "a good deal of confusion", do you think I should
try?
The question was raised on behalf of someone who did not dare to ask
himself, knowing the charming reactions it would get.
As shown already.
Usually kings are always referred to by their highest title, exception, of
course, is the Duke of Windsor.
Are we obliged to refer to Lady Diana Spencer by her _last_ applying name?
In which case it would be a no-no to talk about Grace Kelly.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Hoskins" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: Lady Diana's Ancestry
I do not have access to those. Add to this your observations of
"un-authoritiveness" and "a good deal of confusion", do you think I should
try?
The question was raised on behalf of someone who did not dare to ask
himself, knowing the charming reactions it would get.
As shown already.
Usually kings are always referred to by their highest title, exception, of
course, is the Duke of Windsor.
Are we obliged to refer to Lady Diana Spencer by her _last_ applying name?
In which case it would be a no-no to talk about Grace Kelly.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Hoskins" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: Lady Diana's Ancestry
Wondering what Vivian's Devon and Cornwall Visitations might say on this
(despite their un-authoritativeness). Have you checked these, Leo? Huge
family, with a good deal of confusion particularly between the Lanherene
and Trerice branches.
Tony
-------------------------------
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[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.20/1260 - Release Date: 2/5/2008
9:44 AM
Re: Fw: Lady Diana's Ancestry
On Feb 5, 5:00 pm, "Leo van de Pas" <[email protected]> wrote:
[source]: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 1202100561
Re: Every English monarch down to Queen Elizabeth II is a descendant
of William the Conqueror, Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 20:49:2, "Leo van de
Pas" wrote: "In my data base Robert II, King of Scots descends from
Charlemagne in at least 57 different ways." His son Robert Stewart,
1st Duke/Albany, Regent/Scots = Margaret Graham of Menteith were HM
the Queen's 17-Great Grandfather and Grandmother, as direct descendant
from Charlemagne and William I The Conqueror.
Robert STEWART, 1st Duke of ALBANY, Regent of Scotland, was
Lady Diana's 17-Great Grandfather. Who was the wife of Robert Steward
who was the 17-Great Grandmother of Lady Diana? Five websites have
Margaret Graham, and who does Leo have? This
is Royalty, Leo, can't you get the answer?
aaron
In history there are several people who are remembered by a name which may not be correct but by which they are easiest recognised
Charlemagne
William the Conquerer
Dorothy Kappelhof
Marion Michael Morrison
Charles Lutwidge Dodgson
just to mention a few.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
From: kelly 6424
To: Leo van de Pas ; [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 8:47 AM
Subject: RE: Lady Diana's Ancestry
I believe that once one becomes a Princess of the realm, one is no longer referred to as "Lady ...".
KB Gray
NY
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Lady Diana's Ancestry
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 08:23:49 +1100
Apparently the late David Williamson has said that all four English wives of Henry VIII are ancestral aunts of Lady Diana Spencer. Three can be established, but not Catherine Howard. .
Catherine Howard has a sister Margaret who married Sir Thomas Arundell of Wardour. Burke's Peerage 1938 page 159 gives this couple a daughter Jane but married to Sir William Beville.
I have a Jane Arundell married to William Viell, their daughter Grace married Sir George Smythe.
In Lady Diana Spencer's ancestor list Sir George Smythe has numbers 4138 and 21066
Is William Vieill the same person as Sir William Beville, or was Jane Arundell married twice?
Can anyone give the answer?
With many thanks
Leo van de Pas,
[source]: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 1202100561
Re: Every English monarch down to Queen Elizabeth II is a descendant
of William the Conqueror, Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 20:49:2, "Leo van de
Pas" wrote: "In my data base Robert II, King of Scots descends from
Charlemagne in at least 57 different ways." His son Robert Stewart,
1st Duke/Albany, Regent/Scots = Margaret Graham of Menteith were HM
the Queen's 17-Great Grandfather and Grandmother, as direct descendant
from Charlemagne and William I The Conqueror.
Robert STEWART, 1st Duke of ALBANY, Regent of Scotland, was
Lady Diana's 17-Great Grandfather. Who was the wife of Robert Steward
who was the 17-Great Grandmother of Lady Diana? Five websites have
Margaret Graham, and who does Leo have? This
is Royalty, Leo, can't you get the answer?
aaron
-
Tony Hoskins
Re: Lady Diana's Ancestry
Hi Leo,
It's really a question of proper usage, but people have become slipshod
(and ignorant) about such things today.
My view. Princess Diana should *not* be called "Lady Diana". The
principle here is that of rank. The highest rank a woman achieved was
(in the past at least) the name by which she was known, regardless of
later marriages of lower rank. Taking a case to which I referred earlier
today as an instance: my ancestral uncle Robert Carr of Sleaford,
Lincolnshire married the widowed Mary (Somerset), Lady Grey of Wilton.
When she died as the wife of Robert Carr, Jr., she would not have been
called Mistress Carr. This married couple would have been "Mr. Robert
Carr and the Lady Grey of Wilton, his wife".
In America especially people refer erroneously to"Lady Di/Diana". She
ought to be called "Princess Diana". But, to make this point to many
would be tilting at windmills, so I give it a big California
"whatever!"
Hoping you are doing well.
Tony
It's really a question of proper usage, but people have become slipshod
(and ignorant) about such things today.
My view. Princess Diana should *not* be called "Lady Diana". The
principle here is that of rank. The highest rank a woman achieved was
(in the past at least) the name by which she was known, regardless of
later marriages of lower rank. Taking a case to which I referred earlier
today as an instance: my ancestral uncle Robert Carr of Sleaford,
Lincolnshire married the widowed Mary (Somerset), Lady Grey of Wilton.
When she died as the wife of Robert Carr, Jr., she would not have been
called Mistress Carr. This married couple would have been "Mr. Robert
Carr and the Lady Grey of Wilton, his wife".
In America especially people refer erroneously to"Lady Di/Diana". She
ought to be called "Princess Diana". But, to make this point to many
would be tilting at windmills, so I give it a big California
"whatever!"
Hoping you are doing well.
Tony
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Lady Diana's Ancestry
Dear Tony,
In my website I stick to the maiden name of _all_ women (or the name they
are known by, like Doris Day instead of Dorothy Kappelhof). If my heading
had said Princess Diana, judging by the subject line alone, I could be
talking about Diane Furstenberg or any other Princess Dianas.. _Lady Diana_
is unmistakeable, ok there is another Lady Diana Spencer but not many people
would think of her. You talk about the principle of rank, again, in that
case it is a no-no to talk about Grace Kelly.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Hoskins" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 9:39 AM
Subject: Re: Lady Diana's Ancestry
In my website I stick to the maiden name of _all_ women (or the name they
are known by, like Doris Day instead of Dorothy Kappelhof). If my heading
had said Princess Diana, judging by the subject line alone, I could be
talking about Diane Furstenberg or any other Princess Dianas.. _Lady Diana_
is unmistakeable, ok there is another Lady Diana Spencer but not many people
would think of her. You talk about the principle of rank, again, in that
case it is a no-no to talk about Grace Kelly.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Hoskins" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 9:39 AM
Subject: Re: Lady Diana's Ancestry
Hi Leo,
It's really a question of proper usage, but people have become slipshod
(and ignorant) about such things today.
My view. Princess Diana should *not* be called "Lady Diana". The
principle here is that of rank. The highest rank a woman achieved was
(in the past at least) the name by which she was known, regardless of
later marriages of lower rank. Taking a case to which I referred earlier
today as an instance: my ancestral uncle Robert Carr of Sleaford,
Lincolnshire married the widowed Mary (Somerset), Lady Grey of Wilton.
When she died as the wife of Robert Carr, Jr., she would not have been
called Mistress Carr. This married couple would have been "Mr. Robert
Carr and the Lady Grey of Wilton, his wife".
In America especially people refer erroneously to"Lady Di/Diana". She
ought to be called "Princess Diana". But, to make this point to many
would be tilting at windmills, so I give it a big California
"whatever!"
Hoping you are doing well.
Tony
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.20/1260 - Release Date: 2/5/2008
9:44 AM
-
Gjest
Re: Stewart Questions
On Feb 6, 2:37 pm, [email protected] wrote:
Dear James
If you re-read my post about what ODNB states, you will see it says
"Isabel Stewart, daughter of the Earl of Buchan, who is said to be
the only identifiable mistress of James IV, other than Janet Kennedy
(mother of James, Earl of Moray)" - ie ODNB identifies *two*
mistresses and their repsective issue.
Perhaps the author of the ODNB article didn't feel that the evidence
for this (if there is any) was strong enough to warrant his
endorsement - I'm not sure.
Kind regards, Michael
In a message dated 2/4/2008 5:55:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
On Feb 5, 1:35 am, Gaveston <[email protected]> wrote:
James IV's mistress with whom he had Janet Stewart (m. Fleming).
Have seen records showing mistress being either Isabel Stewart (d. of
Buchan and Oglivie) or Agnes Stewart (ilg. d. of Buchan and Murray)
Is there known to be a consensus as to which one was the mother of
Janet (nee Stewart) Lady Fleming?
FWIW, the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography states (biography of
James IV by T.G. Chalmers) that Janet was his daughter by "Isabel
Stewart, daughter of the Earl of Buchan" who is said to be the only
identifiable mistress of James IV, other than Janet Kennedy (mother of
James, Earl of Moray).
MA-R
-------------------------------
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the body of the message
Dear Michael,
King James IV of Scotland` s only
identifiable mistress was Isabel Stewart of Buchan ?
Dear James
If you re-read my post about what ODNB states, you will see it says
"Isabel Stewart, daughter of the Earl of Buchan, who is said to be
the only identifiable mistress of James IV, other than Janet Kennedy
(mother of James, Earl of Moray)" - ie ODNB identifies *two*
mistresses and their repsective issue.
What about Margaret, daughter of
John, 1st Lord Drummond of Stobhall who is said to have been the mother of
Margaret Stewart , wife 1st of John Gordon, Master of Huntley and 2nd of Sir
John Drummond of Innerpeffray ?
Perhaps the author of the ODNB article didn't feel that the evidence
for this (if there is any) was strong enough to warrant his
endorsement - I'm not sure.
Kind regards, Michael
**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/n ... aolcmp0....
48)
-
Gjest
Re: Stewart Questions
In a message dated 2/4/2008 5:55:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
On Feb 5, 1:35 am, Gaveston <[email protected]> wrote:
FWIW, the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography states (biography of
James IV by T.G. Chalmers) that Janet was his daughter by "Isabel
Stewart, daughter of the Earl of Buchan" who is said to be the only
identifiable mistress of James IV, other than Janet Kennedy (mother of
James, Earl of Moray).
MA-R
-------------------------------
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[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and
the body of the message
Dear Michael,
King James IV of Scotland` s only
identifiable mistress was Isabel Stewart of Buchan ? What about Margaret, daughter of
John, 1st Lord Drummond of Stobhall who is said to have been the mother of
Margaret Stewart , wife 1st of John Gordon, Master of Huntley and 2nd of Sir
John Drummond of Innerpeffray ?
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA
**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/n ... 3000000025
48)
[email protected] writes:
On Feb 5, 1:35 am, Gaveston <[email protected]> wrote:
James IV's mistress with whom he had Janet Stewart (m. Fleming).
Have seen records showing mistress being either Isabel Stewart (d. of
Buchan and Oglivie) or Agnes Stewart (ilg. d. of Buchan and Murray)
Is there known to be a consensus as to which one was the mother of
Janet (nee Stewart) Lady Fleming?
FWIW, the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography states (biography of
James IV by T.G. Chalmers) that Janet was his daughter by "Isabel
Stewart, daughter of the Earl of Buchan" who is said to be the only
identifiable mistress of James IV, other than Janet Kennedy (mother of
James, Earl of Moray).
MA-R
-------------------------------
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[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and
the body of the message
Dear Michael,
King James IV of Scotland` s only
identifiable mistress was Isabel Stewart of Buchan ? What about Margaret, daughter of
John, 1st Lord Drummond of Stobhall who is said to have been the mother of
Margaret Stewart , wife 1st of John Gordon, Master of Huntley and 2nd of Sir
John Drummond of Innerpeffray ?
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA
**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/n ... 3000000025
48)
-
Gjest
Re: Lady Diana's Ancestry
On Feb 6, 9:39 am, "Tony Hoskins" <[email protected]> wrote:
(snip)
Is not the important thing is that someone be described accurately and
in a way that allows them to be readily identified? We still speak of
Grace Kelly without anyone offering contradiction. And it is surely
better to refer to 'Katherine Parr' and 'Anne Boleyn' than to speak of
'Queen Katherine' and 'Queen Anne' for that very reason?
Actually, that assertion is actually the error, albeit a very common
one. If you want to go for 'identifiability', "Princess Diana" is
fine - but it's actually far less accurate than "Lady Diana".
Before her marriage to the Prince of Wales, her name actually was
"Lady Diana" but she was never 'Princess Diana". She was firstly "The
Princess of Wales" [and technically, I suppose, "The Princess Charles"
but that was never used] and, after her divorce, "Diana, Princess of
Wales".
Cheers, Michael
Hi Leo,
It's really a question of proper usage, but people have become slipshod
(and ignorant) about such things today.
My view. Princess Diana should *not* be called "Lady Diana".
(snip)
Is not the important thing is that someone be described accurately and
in a way that allows them to be readily identified? We still speak of
Grace Kelly without anyone offering contradiction. And it is surely
better to refer to 'Katherine Parr' and 'Anne Boleyn' than to speak of
'Queen Katherine' and 'Queen Anne' for that very reason?
In America especially people refer erroneously to"Lady Di/Diana". She
ought to be called "Princess Diana".
Actually, that assertion is actually the error, albeit a very common
one. If you want to go for 'identifiability', "Princess Diana" is
fine - but it's actually far less accurate than "Lady Diana".
Before her marriage to the Prince of Wales, her name actually was
"Lady Diana" but she was never 'Princess Diana". She was firstly "The
Princess of Wales" [and technically, I suppose, "The Princess Charles"
but that was never used] and, after her divorce, "Diana, Princess of
Wales".
Cheers, Michael
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Lady Diana's Ancestry
On Feb 6, 3:18 pm, [email protected] wrote:
This is right - the courtesy of being known as "Diana, Princess of
Wales" was extended to her by the queen, who might just as well have
decided that she should be known after her divorce as "Lady Diana"
with whatever surname she chose to use. Both are merely courtesy
titles, and the one she was born with is not incorrect just because
she had been married to a man of higher rank; she was never created a
princess of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland who would have
been called "Princess Diana" as her proper title, with or without
"HRH".
The last time this was done before Diana, I suppose, was for the late
Princess Alice, duchess of Gloucester, who was effectively a princess
(royal, in her case), by courtesy but not made one by letters patent,
rather than being known as "Princess Henry". It would have been absurd
for Diana following her divorce to be called "Princess Charles", but
quite acceptable for her to revert to "Lady Diana" - as indeed she
might have been forced to do if remarrying. Widows sometimes hang on
to titles after remarrying, like Maureen, Lady Dufferin, who was
married twice to commoners after her first husband, a marquess of
Dufferin & Ava, was killed in the Second World War.
Peter Stewart
On Feb 6, 9:39 am, "Tony Hoskins" <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Leo,
It's really a question of proper usage, but people have become slipshod
(and ignorant) about such things today.
My view. Princess Diana should *not* be called "Lady Diana".
(snip)
Is not the important thing is that someone be described accurately and
in a way that allows them to be readily identified? We still speak of
Grace Kelly without anyone offering contradiction. And it is surely
better to refer to 'Katherine Parr' and 'Anne Boleyn' than to speak of
'Queen Katherine' and 'Queen Anne' for that very reason?
In America especially people refer erroneously to"Lady Di/Diana". She
ought to be called "Princess Diana".
Actually, that assertion is actually the error, albeit a very common
one. If you want to go for 'identifiability', "Princess Diana" is
fine - but it's actually far less accurate than "Lady Diana".
Before her marriage to the Prince of Wales, her name actually was
"Lady Diana" but she was never 'Princess Diana". She was firstly "The
Princess of Wales" [and technically, I suppose, "The Princess Charles"
but that was never used] and, after her divorce, "Diana, Princess of
Wales".
This is right - the courtesy of being known as "Diana, Princess of
Wales" was extended to her by the queen, who might just as well have
decided that she should be known after her divorce as "Lady Diana"
with whatever surname she chose to use. Both are merely courtesy
titles, and the one she was born with is not incorrect just because
she had been married to a man of higher rank; she was never created a
princess of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland who would have
been called "Princess Diana" as her proper title, with or without
"HRH".
The last time this was done before Diana, I suppose, was for the late
Princess Alice, duchess of Gloucester, who was effectively a princess
(royal, in her case), by courtesy but not made one by letters patent,
rather than being known as "Princess Henry". It would have been absurd
for Diana following her divorce to be called "Princess Charles", but
quite acceptable for her to revert to "Lady Diana" - as indeed she
might have been forced to do if remarrying. Widows sometimes hang on
to titles after remarrying, like Maureen, Lady Dufferin, who was
married twice to commoners after her first husband, a marquess of
Dufferin & Ava, was killed in the Second World War.
Peter Stewart
-
Gjest
Re: Lady Diana's Ancestry
In a message dated 2/5/2008 8:20:13 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
Before her marriage to the Prince of Wales, her name actually was
"Lady Diana" but she was never 'Princess Diana". She was firstly "The
Princess of Wales" [and technically, I suppose, "The Princess Charles"
but that was never used] and, after her divorce, "Diana, Princess of
Wales".>>>
---------------------
You're being quite silly.
Elizabeth, Queen of Great Britain is used far less than simply "Queen
Elizabeth"
So, using that example "Diana, Princess of Wales" can be transformed into
"Princess Diana"
quite readily.
Will Johnson, Prince Reindeer
**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/n ... 3000000025
48)
[email protected] writes:
Before her marriage to the Prince of Wales, her name actually was
"Lady Diana" but she was never 'Princess Diana". She was firstly "The
Princess of Wales" [and technically, I suppose, "The Princess Charles"
but that was never used] and, after her divorce, "Diana, Princess of
Wales".>>>
---------------------
You're being quite silly.
Elizabeth, Queen of Great Britain is used far less than simply "Queen
Elizabeth"
So, using that example "Diana, Princess of Wales" can be transformed into
"Princess Diana"
quite readily.
Will Johnson, Prince Reindeer
**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/n ... 3000000025
48)
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Lady Diana's Ancestry
Dear Rudolf,
You do not grasp the basic difference. Queen Elizabeth _is_ Queen of Great
Britain. Lady Diana Spencer never was _THE_ Princess of Wales. She was
_Princess Consort_ of Prince Charles. In the way you switch words and
titles around, next we have William, Prince of Wales---but for that to be
correct, he has to wait until Charles becomes king.
Which position do you have on the sledge?
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: Lady Diana's Ancestry
You do not grasp the basic difference. Queen Elizabeth _is_ Queen of Great
Britain. Lady Diana Spencer never was _THE_ Princess of Wales. She was
_Princess Consort_ of Prince Charles. In the way you switch words and
titles around, next we have William, Prince of Wales---but for that to be
correct, he has to wait until Charles becomes king.
Which position do you have on the sledge?
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: Lady Diana's Ancestry
In a message dated 2/5/2008 8:20:13 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
Before her marriage to the Prince of Wales, her name actually was
"Lady Diana" but she was never 'Princess Diana". She was firstly "The
Princess of Wales" [and technically, I suppose, "The Princess Charles"
but that was never used] and, after her divorce, "Diana, Princess of
Wales".
---------------------
You're being quite silly.
Elizabeth, Queen of Great Britain is used far less than simply "Queen
Elizabeth"
So, using that example "Diana, Princess of Wales" can be transformed into
"Princess Diana"
quite readily.
Will Johnson, Prince Reindeer
**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/n ... 3000000025
48)
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
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--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.20/1260 - Release Date: 2/5/2008
9:44 AM
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Lady Diana's Ancestry
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Well, much more readily than Elizabeth, queen of the United Kingdom of Great
Britain & Northern Ireland can be transformed into "Elizabeth, Queen of
Great Britain". She is head of state in the UK, of course, but of a whole
nation rather than a geographic entity, GB, that forms the larger part of
it.
Peter Stewart
news:[email protected]...
In a message dated 2/5/2008 8:20:13 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
Before her marriage to the Prince of Wales, her name actually was
"Lady Diana" but she was never 'Princess Diana". She was firstly "The
Princess of Wales" [and technically, I suppose, "The Princess Charles"
but that was never used] and, after her divorce, "Diana, Princess of
Wales".
---------------------
You're being quite silly.
Elizabeth, Queen of Great Britain is used far less than simply "Queen
Elizabeth"
So, using that example "Diana, Princess of Wales" can be transformed into
"Princess Diana"
quite readily.
Well, much more readily than Elizabeth, queen of the United Kingdom of Great
Britain & Northern Ireland can be transformed into "Elizabeth, Queen of
Great Britain". She is head of state in the UK, of course, but of a whole
nation rather than a geographic entity, GB, that forms the larger part of
it.
Peter Stewart
-
Gjest
Re: Lady Diana's Ancestry
On Feb 6, 9:25 am, "Leo van de Pas" <[email protected]> wrote:
As per Tony's excellent suggestion, Vivian's Visitations of Cornwall
may be viewed here:
http://www.uk-genealogy.org.uk/england/ ... index.html
and there are other Visitation records including some elements of the
Devonshire version):
http://www.uk-genealogy.org.uk/visitations/index.html
Cheers, Michael
Dear Tony,
I do not have access to those.
As per Tony's excellent suggestion, Vivian's Visitations of Cornwall
may be viewed here:
http://www.uk-genealogy.org.uk/england/ ... index.html
and there are other Visitation records including some elements of the
Devonshire version):
http://www.uk-genealogy.org.uk/visitations/index.html
Cheers, Michael
Re: Lady Diana's Ancestry
[email protected]
View profile
(4 users) More options Feb 5, 10:52 pm
On Feb 5, 6:22 pm, [email protected] wrote:
- Show quoted text -
Leo van de Pas
View profile
(2 users) More options Feb 5, 5:44 pm
- Hide quoted text -
- Hide quoted text -
----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 9:13 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Lady Diana's Ancestry
in other words, your website is not official, just a guide
wrong in places, Leo won't change, until someone else does his work
be delighted when you change it, in the meantime be wrong
Princess Di/Lady Di's ancestors
were Robert Stewart = Margaret Graham of Menteith
be delighted when you change it, Leo, in the meantime be wrong
In Leo's data base Robert II, King of Scots descends from
Charlemagne in at least 57 different ways. His son Robert Stewart,
1st Duke/Albany, Regent/Scots = Margaret Graham of Menteith
They were HM the Queen's 17-Great Grandfather and Grandmother
be delighted when you change it, Leo, in the meantime be wrong
Robert STEWART, 1st Duke of ALBANY, Regent of Scotland, was
Princess Di/ Lady Di's 17-Great Grandfather.
be delighted when you change it, Leo, in the meantime be wrong
aaron
View profile
(4 users) More options Feb 5, 10:52 pm
On Feb 5, 6:22 pm, [email protected] wrote:
- Show quoted text -
Leo van de Pas
View profile
(2 users) More options Feb 5, 5:44 pm
- Hide quoted text -
- Hide quoted text -
----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 9:13 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Lady Diana's Ancestry
On Feb 5, 5:00 pm, "Leo van de Pas" <[email protected]> wrote:
In history there are several people who are remembered by a name which
may not be correct but by which they are easiest recognised
snip
[source]:
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 1202100561
Re: Every English monarch down to Queen Elizabeth II is a descendant
of William the Conqueror, Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 20:49:2, "Leo van de
Pas" wrote: "In my data base Robert II, King of Scots descends from
Charlemagne in at least 57 different ways." His son Robert Stewart,
1st Duke/Albany, Regent/Scots = Margaret Graham of Menteith were HM
the Queen's 17-Great Grandfather and Grandmother, as direct descendant
from Charlemagne and William I The Conqueror.
Robert STEWART, 1st Duke of ALBANY, Regent of Scotland, was
Lady Diana's 17-Great Grandfather. Who was the wife of Robert Steward
who was the 17-Great Grandmother of Lady Diana? Five websites have
Margaret Graham, and who does Leo have? This
is Royalty, Leo, can't you get the answer?
aaron
Dear Aaron,
It is so nice to see you have a hobby horse, but before you trot it
out _again_ learn a few things.
I told you that Robert Stewart was an ancestor of HM the Queen in _five_
(did this cause your confusion?) different lines, 4 via his first wife
and one via the second.This made you jump to the conclusion I had it
wrong five times. I am not looking for an answer, I am expecting it to
come from you. You say I have it wrong, you prove it. I will be delighted to
change my records.
in other words, your website is not official, just a guide
wrong in places, Leo won't change, until someone else does his work
be delighted when you change it, in the meantime be wrong
Princess Di/Lady Di's ancestors
were Robert Stewart = Margaret Graham of Menteith
be delighted when you change it, Leo, in the meantime be wrong
In Leo's data base Robert II, King of Scots descends from
Charlemagne in at least 57 different ways. His son Robert Stewart,
1st Duke/Albany, Regent/Scots = Margaret Graham of Menteith
They were HM the Queen's 17-Great Grandfather and Grandmother
be delighted when you change it, Leo, in the meantime be wrong
Robert STEWART, 1st Duke of ALBANY, Regent of Scotland, was
Princess Di/ Lady Di's 17-Great Grandfather.
be delighted when you change it, Leo, in the meantime be wrong
aaron
-
Gjest
Re: Lady Diana's Ancestry
In a message dated 2/6/2008 4:30:28 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
be delighted when you change it, Leo, in the meantime be wrong>>
-----------------------
This would make a very nice line to a pop song.
It has a certain cadence.
Will Johnson
**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/n ... 3000000025
48)
[email protected] writes:
be delighted when you change it, Leo, in the meantime be wrong>>
-----------------------
This would make a very nice line to a pop song.
It has a certain cadence.
Will Johnson
**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/n ... 3000000025
48)
-
Gjest
Re: Lady Diana's Ancestry
In a message dated 2/6/2008 11:07:01 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
In a message dated 2/6/2008 4:30:28 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
be delighted when you change it, Leo, in the meantime be wrong>>
-----------------------
This would make a very nice line to a pop song.
It has a certain cadence.
Will Johnson
------------------
Perhaps cadence is the wrong word.
What I meant to imply is something like rhythm, poetic-flow.
Something like that.
Will Johnson
**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/n ... 3000000025
48)
[email protected] writes:
In a message dated 2/6/2008 4:30:28 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
be delighted when you change it, Leo, in the meantime be wrong>>
-----------------------
This would make a very nice line to a pop song.
It has a certain cadence.
Will Johnson
------------------
Perhaps cadence is the wrong word.
What I meant to imply is something like rhythm, poetic-flow.
Something like that.
Will Johnson
**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/n ... 3000000025
48)
-
Willem Nabuurs
Re: Italian origins
Leo,
Christian Settipani, in his latest book "Continuite des elites a Byzance
durant les siecles obscurs", discusses this family in Appendix IV.
He gives
1. Alberic, duc of Spoleto x Marozzia (whose parents are traced back by
Settipani, with couple of uncertain links, til beginning of 8th century)
|
2. Alberic II, died 954, prince of the Romans
| (uncertain link)
3. Gregorius, died 1005/1013; count of Tusculum
|
4. Alberic III, + approx. 1035, count of Tusculum
|
5. Gregorius II, died 1058/1064, count of Tusculum
|
6. Gregorius III, died 1099/1105, count of Tusculum
|
7. Petrus, occurs in 1077 when he makes a donation to a church in Monte
Porzio, probably the same person as Petrus, died 1115/1145, lord of
Colonna and Monte Porzio, father of Oddo, died approx. 1151, lord of
Colonna, ancestor of the Colonna family
Settipani refers to Carocci (Baroni di Roma, 1993) and Guarnieri (I conti
di Tusculo, 1997/98).
Much more on this family can be found in Settipani's book.
Willem Nabuurs
Christian Settipani, in his latest book "Continuite des elites a Byzance
durant les siecles obscurs", discusses this family in Appendix IV.
He gives
1. Alberic, duc of Spoleto x Marozzia (whose parents are traced back by
Settipani, with couple of uncertain links, til beginning of 8th century)
|
2. Alberic II, died 954, prince of the Romans
| (uncertain link)
3. Gregorius, died 1005/1013; count of Tusculum
|
4. Alberic III, + approx. 1035, count of Tusculum
|
5. Gregorius II, died 1058/1064, count of Tusculum
|
6. Gregorius III, died 1099/1105, count of Tusculum
|
7. Petrus, occurs in 1077 when he makes a donation to a church in Monte
Porzio, probably the same person as Petrus, died 1115/1145, lord of
Colonna and Monte Porzio, father of Oddo, died approx. 1151, lord of
Colonna, ancestor of the Colonna family
Settipani refers to Carocci (Baroni di Roma, 1993) and Guarnieri (I conti
di Tusculo, 1997/98).
Much more on this family can be found in Settipani's book.
Willem Nabuurs
George Williams in his great book on the papal families, on page 12, has a
family tree which shows ancestors and descendants of Alberico III, Count
of Tusculum.
He belongs to a fascinating family, his great-uncle is pope John XII, his
brothers are popes John XIX and Benedict VIII, on top of that he is the
father of pope Benedict IX. However I am interested in an other line of
his descendants.
From Gregorio II the information came from Genealogisches Handbuch des
Adels, Fuerstlich Haeuser 1959 page 430
1.Alberico III, Count of Tusculum
father of
2.Gregorio II, Count of Tusculum, 1030-1054
|
3.Gregorio III died 1126
|
4.Pietro I, signore della Colonna 1078-1108-married Emilia Contessa di
Palestrina
|
5.Pietro II signore della Colonna mentioned in 1116
|
6.Oddone signore della Colonna mentioned in 1151
|
and so on.
Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels, shows that generations 4-5-6 are based
on secure information, but all earlier generations, every generation, is
in question.
Now I found a fascinating book about "the families that made Rome", by
Canadian Anthony Majanlahti and he is pretty blunt with his opinion about
the origins of the Colonna family:
"The family established itself in Rome by the end of the twelfth century,
but a certain fog hovers over their origins. Some authorities assert their
descent from the family of the counts of Tusculum, though the only basis
for this is the geographical proximity of the power bases of the two
families."
Then he mentions how others want to claim this family descended from
Julius Caesar and thus from the goddess Venus.
Anthony Majanlahti agrees with Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels, that the
first acceptable Colonna is Pietro I 1078-1108
And so, sadly, I am going to disbelieve George Williams who gives a
slightly differing line of descent, and I am going to disconnect Pietro I
from Gregorio III
Does anyone have better information? Whether it restores the link or not?
With many thanks
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra
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