Lars Andersen Mandahl and Christine Knudsdatter

[gj03594]

Hi everyone,

I am wondering whether anyone could please help with further information on this couple. They were married 10 Jan 1838 at Domkirken, in Oslo, Akershus. I have found them in the 1865 census with some of their family - son Johan Christian Mandahl (my ggg g/father) is on the census elsewhere. He immigrated to NZ in 1872 aboard the Hovding along with his wife Maren Helene Halvorsdatter and daughter Julie Mathilde Mandahl.

However I am hoping a marriage record would give further indication of Lars and Christine's parent's names. Lars is originally from Hedemarken and Christine from Ringerike. I am also intrigued as to why Lars is known as Lars Andersen in his marriage record, yet as Lars Mandahl in the census, Mandahl actually being used as the family name for the entire family. Any information would be greatly appreciated. Would the family originally have originated from Mandahl region or could there be another reason for the name?

Regards and thank you,

Kymm

[Laila Normann Christiansen]

Hi Kymm!
I assume you know Pip? I have helped her find her family (Gundersen/Halvorsen) - and in that search I also saw name Mandahl. (Christian and Marens marriage)

Marriage here No 5
http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?i ... x_side=-90

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You might want to read about Norwegian naming practice here
http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~norway/na12.html

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[gj03594]

Hi Laila,

Thankyou so much for replying. Yes Pip and I are in contact due to the fantastic genealogy project she has undertaken with regard to the Norwegian immigrants into NZ, and through your work have found we could possibly be related. (Assuming her Anne Marie and my Maren Helene are sisters!!). My grandmother has full Norwegian heritage..grew up in Norsewood and both parents were children of the immigrants. She used to sing us Norwegian folk songs when we were children.

I have been researching my Norwegian family for 5 years now (Even found a Norwegian relative!!!!) and have a great sourced tree, however find that I have a couple of brick walls.

Maren Helene was one of them, which you have definitely helped with, the other is any further information on her husband Johan's parents.

As you can see I know their names and approximate dates of birth and location of birth through the 1865 census, but was hoping to find at least father's names in their marriage 10 Jan 1838 at Domkirken, Christiania.

IGI Individual Record FamilySearch™ International Genealogical Index v5.0
Norway
Search Results | Download | Pedigree
LARS ANDERSEN
Male
Marriages:
Spouse: CHRISTINE KNUDSDR
Marriage: 10 JAN 1838 Domkirken, Oslo, Akershus, Norway
Source Information:
Batch No.: Dates: Source Call No.: Type: Printout Call No.: Type:
M424659 1828 - 1847 0125768


Lars must have been about 29 when they married and Christine 24. (That is using their ages cited in the 1865 census). Lars was a tailor. Son Johan was an apprentice tailor in 1865, residing with his employers on census night. Maren I couldn't find. Johan (known as John in NZ) was a well known tailor in Fielding, NZ later on.

Thankyou again and regards

Kymm

[Kjell Halvorsen]

Hi,

Here is Lars and Christine's wedding in Oslo http://tinyurl.com/r7pxx
To the best of my knowledge, this is a short version of what it says: Lars was born at Rommedal, age given as 29 and his fathers name and position Anders Larsen, Huusmand. Christine was born at Nordrehoug, was 26 years of age at her wedding and her fathers name/position was Knud Olsen.

Kjell H.

[Laila Normann Christiansen]

Kymm,
here you can see the original marriage-record for Lars
Oslo DOmkirke, MINI 19, marriages 1828-1847
http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?i ... _side=-234

Lars fathers name is Anders Larsen and Christines father was Knud Olsen

Fun to read that Christine was born in Norderhoug (Today in Ringerike) - one branch of my fathers family came from farms there.

[Laila Normann Christiansen]

This might be Christine
CHRISTI KNUDSEN Female
Event(s):
Christening:
26 MAY 1811 Norderhov, Buskerud, Norway
Parents:
Father: KNUD OLSEN Family
Mother: RANDI KNUDSDR

Problem is - we cannot actually be sure...

But, the mothers name Randi, and the daughters name Randine might be a clue.
We need to find a record with Christines birth date.

[Kjell Halvorsen]

Kymm.

Christine's name when married was Christine Knudsdatter Uggen-Eiet. The farm Uggen is included in both Censuses 1801 Nordrehoug http://tinyurl.com/h5u43 and 1865 Nordrehov http://tinyurl.com/hjbvd A clue ?

Kjell H.

[Laila Normann Christiansen]

Great information, Kjell.

The old Norderhov churchrecords are not scanned and put online yet, and I dont have those at home (wish I had though).

I will take a look when I get to the archives on wednesday.

[gj03609]

Hi Laila and Kjell,

Thankyou so very much for your research and the time you have taken to help me!!! I can now go back another generation and you have helped with another brick wall. Have a couple of those.

I now have another region to research and am looking forward to that...and Wednesday (Thanks Laila)

Once again, thankyou very much

Kymm

[Laila Normann Christiansen]

And - here is the christening for the daughter
Julie Randine:
http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?i ... _side=-128

(no 56)

Birth Feb. 9th, chr. April 12
Parents Taylor Lars Andersen Mandahl and wife Christine Knudsdatter
Witnesses:
(??) Grethe Gay, girl Johanne Reiersen?, taylor(master) Ingebrethsen and taylor(master) Christiansen.

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[gj03594]

Hi Laila,

Thankyou once again. You are fantastic!!!

I have posted another teaser on the Stange site with regard to Lars Andersen Mandahl since that is where he comes from. I thought the Mandahl may have come from a farm name, but there is no Mandahl farm in Romedal...however there was a Mandall family.....Johanne von Mandall (nee Robsahm). Am trying to figure out the connection.

Kymm

[Laila Normann Christiansen]

Kymm - the Mandahl name...

Since they were taylor-masters, they might just have taken that name from .. a map, a book....

Lots of worksmen - craftsmen - used another name than their patronymic, if they had their own little business, or they were masters. One of my great grandfathers was an Olesen, but used the name Wilderup (from nowhere ....) He was a taylor master. Also another great grandfahter - taylor master, was christened given name Torbjørn Normann - last name Larsen. He just skipped the Larsen part, and used Normann as the last name (that was my maiden name).
His brother skipped the Larsen-name and used Alexander as a last name, he was a printer. (around 1910).

and by the way... heard you just attended our society! Welcome!!!

[gj03594]

Hi Laila,

Thankyou so much for that information. Was going to be on a wild goose chase with that
It makes sense to differentiate yourself from others if you are in businees as same-names were so prolific. It has puzzled me for the last few years how the Mandahl name came into it considering there were very few Mandahls each census and no others looked as if they could be related to mine!!

I did find that Julie Randine Mandahl (Johan Christian Mandahl's sister) did eventually marry - Jorgen Emil Birkenbusch Steffens on 29 OCT 1870 at Trefoldighet Menighet, Oslo, Akershus, Norway and had a son named Theodor in 1874. Julie took on the Steffens surname and appears in the 1900 census

1900-telling for 0301 Kristiania
By Husliste Kretsnr Gate Våningshus Sidebygning Utan hushald Etasje Busetnad
6712 Kristiania 6 95 Mauritz Hansens Gade 2 Vaaningshus 1 bagbygning n 3 i forgaarden, 4 i baggaarden 20. 2 leiligheter i I etage er gjort til 1
Hushald nr. Førenamn Etternamn Kjønn Busett Sedvanleg bustad Mellombels bustad Fam. stilling Sivilstand Yrke Fødd år Fødestad Nasjonalitet Trussamf. Merknad

179843 x Julie Steffens k b el e Syerske hjemme 1841 Christiania s Mad. Julie Steffens.


Thankyou for all your help!!!

Kymm

[Laila Normann Christiansen]

The fische was unreadable at our archive, so I sent an e-mail to the local archive in Buskerud. They sent this answer, actually it dont confirm that this is your Christine, but - after what I can se, the family got more children (Familysearch) - and it might be a good idea to follow them and see if they lived at Uggen at some point.

Christi,
chr. 26. mai 1811 in Lunder church, Norderhov (no birthdates given here)
Parents:: Knud Olsen Breivasli Eie and wife;. Randi Knudsdtr.

Witnesses: Narve Sindresen Ruds Eie, Tosten Christophersen, Rønnoug Eriksdtr., Kari
Mikkelsdtr. og Christie Engebretsdtr.

(Norderhov kirkebok 6, 1789-1811, fol. 142 b)

[Laila Normann Christiansen]

A short story:
Anne in our genealogy society was working on some Birchenbush-related article in june this year. I remember her talking about some Steffens - and that one guy in our Icehockey supporter-team was a B. Steffens.

Yesterday I talked to this guy, and she was right, he is a B. Steffens. And. his grandfather... you want believe this right? His grandfathers name is .. Theodor!

I need to dig into this, but it looks like I just bumped into one cousin of yours by an "accident".....

[gj03594]

Hi Laila,

WOW!!! And guess what....he may be more related than we know for sure!!! There is a possibility his g grandmother (Julie Randine Mandahl) was actually Julie Mathilde Mandahl's mother and not her aunt. There is some speculation in that regard as Johan and Maren brought Julie to NZ with them - she is listed as their daughter on the shipping records, however she is listed as Julie Randines daughter on the 1865 census and is living in the Mandahl household - not with Maren...and Maren is not there!!! In fact haven't found Maren anywhere in that census. (Johan and Maren did not marry till 1863 - 2 years after Julie Mathilde's birth - and of course Julie Randidne did not marry Jørgen Emil Birkenbusch Steffens until 1870. Have only found one child to that marriage and that was Theodor. (I have been following Julie Randine as well due to the fact she may have been my ggg grandmother and not Maren!)

1865-telling for 0301 Christiania
Listenr Side Gårdsnummer Gatenavn Bydel Kjøpstad Merknad 1 Antall i gården
719 695 168 23 Raadhusgaden Trefoldigheds Menighed Christiania Underskrift: R. Jensen Snedkermester 37
Personnunner Nytt hushold Fornavn Etternavn Familiestatus Yrke Sivilstand Alder Kjønn Fødested

Personnunner Nytt hushold Fornavn Etternavn Familiestatus Yrke Sivilstand Alder Kjønn Fødested
20415 31 1 Lars Mandahl Husfader Forældre Skrædder g 58 m Hedemarken
20416 32 Christine Mandahl Kone Forældre g 53 k Ringerige
20417 33 Laurits Engelhardt Mandahl Søn ug 22 m Christiania
20418 34 Julie Randine Mandahl Datter 25 k Christiania
20419 35 Olivie Mandahl Datter 17 k Christiania
20420 36 Julie Mathilde Mandahl Datterdatter 5 k Christiania

What has caused speculation is the fact that Johan and Maren did not have any further natural children...they did in fact adopt Julie Mathilde's illegitimate son who was born in Christchurch, NZ in 1882

Thank you for your very very hard and wonderful work!!! (Worth me joining if only to help cover costs for you wonderful people!!!!)

Kymm

[Laila Normann Christiansen]

Kymm, I put out here what I find, just so I have everything in one place.


This is the christening of Theodors son (a goOd friend did a lookup for me)

Paulus Church,
Thorleif Emil Engelhardt born May 7th 1899 chr. June 18th 1899
Parents: Hotell?? Teodor Emilius Engelhardt Steffens og Maren Tomine Thomassen
Home: Grunersgt 6

And with the name Engelhardt on both Thorleif and Teodor, I would say there is no doubt about the family relations to the Mandahl-family



This is the marriage of Julie Randine Mandahl and Jørgen Emil Birchenbush Steffens
http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?i ... _side=-248

And now I see that Emil and Julie Steffens, and Lars anc Christine Mandahl lived in the same house!
Mandahl and Steffens in 1875 census



In the 1865 census, it states that Julie Mathilde is the granddaughter - and I would suspect that she was the daughter to Julie Randine. I will take a look in the churchrecords.

[Laila Normann Christiansen]

Kymm! Look what I found!!!!!


This is Julie Mathildes birth/christening, she was born at the Rikshospitalet:

http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?i ... _side=-160

Father Skreddersvend Johan Christian Mandahl and mother unmarried Maren Helene Halvorsdatter.

Julie Mathilde, born September 28 Christened November 6th. (out of wedlock)

Witnesses. ?? Elise Halvorsen and girl Johanne Nilsen.

[gj03594]

Hi Leila!!!

Thankyou. Now we know the census was incorrect for Julie's parentage and I have sure parentage for her. Funny how Johan and Maren had no other children though. I think one of the witnesses may have been Eline Halvorsen not Elise - Maren had a sister named Eline. (Oline).

My g grandmother's name was Alma Mary Eline - she was daughter of Julie Mathilde and obviously grand daughter of Johan and Maren. The Mary and Eline(Oline) do figure in the Halvorsen family as you found for Pip!!



Thanks again,

Kymm

[Laila Normann Christiansen]

Ok - so how is this Icehockey guy I met (I think his name is Erik) related to you.

Erik the Icehockey supporter
his father (dont know his name, but he is a Birkenbush Steffens)
Theodor E. E. Steffens
Julie Randine Mandal
Lars A. Mandal gggrandfather.

[gj03594]

Hi again Laila,

Now I don't know how to work that out very well. His gg grandmother was my ggg aunt. So he is a 2nd cousin to my mother two times removed, so 3 times removed for me...I think.

Great game ice hockey. I like watching it on telly, but we only really see it on Australian TV in the winter Olympics - which I love when they're on. Game of great skill and courage. Water sports here, rugby and cricket.

Thankyou for all your great help!!

Kymm

[Laila Normann Christiansen]

Hi Kymm, could you write up your line back to where you meet Erics ancestor?

Would be interesting see.

[gj03594]

Hi Laila,

Here it is:


GENERATION 1

LARS ANDERSEN MANDAHL, b. 1809 Rommedal, Hedmark, Norway - m. CHRISTINE KNUDSDATTER Uggen-Eiet 10 Jan 1838, Christiania, Norway.

They had the following children:

i. Johan Christian Larsen MANDAHL, b. 19 Jun 1838, Christiania, Norway - d. 28 Dec 1919, Fielding, NZ.

ii. Julie Randine Larsdatter MANDAHL, b. 9 Feb 1841, Christiania, Norway

iii. Lauritz Engelhardt Larsen MANDAHL, b. 1845, Christiania, Norway

iv. Olivie Larsdatter MANDAHL, b. 1850, Christiania

------------------------------------------

GENERATION 2

JOHAN CHRISTIAN LARSEN MANDAHL - m. MAREN HELENE HALVORSDATTER on 9 Jan 1862, Christiania, Norway

They had the following children:

i. Julie Mathilde MANDAHL b. 28 Sep 1861, Christiania, Norway - d. 1943, Auckland, NZ.

(Johan, Maren and Julie immigrated to NZ aboard 1872 Høvding.) No further children born to the marriage.


JULIE RANDINE LARSDATTER MANDAHL - m. JØRGEN EMIL BIRKENBUSH STEFFENS on 29 Oct 1870, Christiania, Norway

They had the following children:

i. Theodor Engelhardt Steffens, b. 1874, Christiania, Norway

------------------------------------
GENERATION 3


JULIE MATHILDE MANDAHL m. JAKOB MARTINSEN Myre on 7 May 1885, Christchurch, NZ.

They had the following children:

i. Alma Mary Eline MARTINSEN b. 9 Jun 1889, Norsewood, NZ, d. 21 Feb 1972, Auckland, NZ.
ii. Jakob Raymond MARTINSEN
iii. Olive Henrietta MARTINSEN (b. 1886)
iv. Herbert Christian MARTINSEN
v. Ethel Minnie MARTINSEN (b. 1892, d. 1894)
vi. Mabel Helena MARTINSEN
vii. Leonard Llewellyn MARTINSEN

Also an illegitimate son of Julie Mathilde Martinsen - father Unknown - Henry Christian MARTINSEN (b. 1882, Christchurch...adopted by Jakob Marinsen but reared by maternal grandparents)


THEODORE ENGELHARDT STEFFENS m. MAREN TOMINE THOMASSEN

They had the following children:

i. Thorleif Emil Engelhardt STEFFENS b. 1899, Norway
_________________________

GENERATION 4

ALMA MARY ELINE MARTINSEN m. ROBERT ERICKSEN on 21 May 1909, Norsewood, NZ.

They had 11 children, all born in Norsewood - 3 of whom are still living - 1 being my grandmother who is now 83 years old and still living in NZ.

________________________________

GENERATION 5

LIVING ERICKSEN b. 1923, Norsewood, NZ, m. REGINALD CHARLES HARDAKER.

6 children born to this marriage - 1 being my mum. (3 children now live in Australia, 2 still in NZ and 1 deceased in NZ)

______________________________

GENERATION 6

ME!!!

I hope you can understand this!!!

Cheers,

Kymm

[gj01576]

Hi, Laila.

I was thinking about Maren being missing from the 1865 census. Is it possible to check the original documents? It may be that she's simply been missed by accident.

Also, what was Rikshospitalet? I assume it was a hospital? Could that suggest obstetric complications (leading to inability to have further children)?

[Laila Normann Christiansen]

Hi!
I will take a look at the original - might be next week,

the Rikshospitalet was the biggest hospital - still excist but on another location. It had a birth-clinic that opened very early, and it might be that when a mother had to give birth at the hospital, it was some complications. At the time, it was usual to give birth at home.

[gj01576]

Thanks, Laila. Next week is fine.

Yes, I thought it was normal to give birth at home. Food for thought!

[Laila Normann Christiansen]

I checked the original of the 1865 census, and the one online is correct, down to the smallest dot.

[gj01576]

Thanks for checking the Census, Laila. I thought it was worth a shot since Maren was missing from the Census. Back to the drawing board...