Computer and 35mm film

[BV]

This may sound stupid but I have a number of census records for Canada
on 35 mm film and I was wondering if there was a way to read this film
through the computer . Just a thought . Bernie

[mickg]

BV wrote:

This may sound stupid but I have a number of census records for Canada
on 35 mm film and I was wondering if there was a way to read this film
through the computer . Just a thought . Bernie

You can buy 35mm film adapters for many proprietary scanners.

[Doug]

mickg wrote:

BV wrote:

This may sound stupid but I have a number of census records for Canada
on 35 mm film and I was wondering if there was a way to read this film
through the computer . Just a thought . Bernie

You can buy 35mm film adapters for many proprietary scanners.

Unfortunately, that would mean scanning each frame of the film into the
computer for viewing, which would be a full time job for a considerable
period of time considering the speed of average scanners (plus the
inevitable tweaking of images that needs to be done to make them
[semi]clear). Ancestry.Com has already done a good deal of US census
image scanning that is available online, but I don't recall having seen
anything with the Canadian census.

I think what Bernie was looking for was something I have wished for some
time someone would (and may have, for all I know) scan the film
"dynamically" and display the results on the screen similarly to what a
microfilm reader/printer does. Then you could save and/or print any
frames of actual interest. That would entail something on the order of a
miniature video camera connected to the computer.

Doug

[f/f george]

On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 02:04:36 GMT, Doug <[email protected]> wrote:

mickg wrote:
BV wrote:

This may sound stupid but I have a number of census records for Canada
on 35 mm film and I was wondering if there was a way to read this film
through the computer . Just a thought . Bernie

You can buy 35mm film adapters for many proprietary scanners.

Unfortunately, that would mean scanning each frame of the film into the
computer for viewing, which would be a full time job for a considerable
period of time considering the speed of average scanners (plus the
inevitable tweaking of images that needs to be done to make them
[semi]clear). Ancestry.Com has already done a good deal of US census
image scanning that is available online, but I don't recall having seen
anything with the Canadian census.

I think what Bernie was looking for was something I have wished for some
time someone would (and may have, for all I know) scan the film
"dynamically" and display the results on the screen similarly to what a
microfilm reader/printer does. Then you could save and/or print any
frames of actual interest. That would entail something on the order of a
miniature video camera connected to the computer.

Doug
THAT is called a web cam!

[Shane Baker]

On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 02:04:36 GMT, Doug <[email protected]> wrote:

Unfortunately, that would mean scanning each frame of the film into the
computer for viewing, which would be a full time job for a considerable
period of time considering the speed of average scanners (plus the
inevitable tweaking of images that needs to be done to make them
[semi]clear). Ancestry.Com has already done a good deal of US census
image scanning that is available online, but I don't recall having seen
anything with the Canadian census.

I think what Bernie was looking for was something I have wished for some
time someone would (and may have, for all I know) scan the film
"dynamically" and display the results on the screen similarly to what a
microfilm reader/printer does. Then you could save and/or print any
frames of actual interest. That would entail something on the order of a
miniature video camera connected to the computer.

Of course, many/most feature films are now edited digitally - which
means scanners exist which can handle thousands of feet of 35mm film
fairly quickly.

Of course, you'd need to be a lotto winner to afford one! }


Shane Baker
_____________________
[email protected]
Canberra, Australia

[Lesley Robertson]

"BV" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

This may sound stupid but I have a number of census records for Canada
on 35 mm film and I was wondering if there was a way to read this film
through the computer . Just a thought . Bernie

It's not stupid. You can get adaptors for many scanners (I have one for the

HP scanner I use at work) and you can also but small film and neg scanners
which plug into a USB port. I have just scanner the whole parish reiste for
a scottish parish using the adaptor. It was a bit tedious and took 2 (wet)
Sunday afternoons, but as long as you're after legibility rather than
art-quality images, it's quite straightforward. Another possibility you
could investigate - here in the Netherlands, you can take 35 mm film to a
photography shop and they will transfer the images to cd for you - costs
less than getting the film printed.
Lesley Robertson

[Herbert G Anderson]

Do you mean 35 mm film or Microfilm. I have bought Canadian Census
data on Microfilm. It is not the same as film (no sprocket holes).
My solution to reading Microfilm was to adapt an old black and white
enlarger.

-------


BV wrote:

This may sound stupid but I have a number of census records for Canada
on 35 mm film and I was wondering if there was a way to read this film
through the computer . Just a thought . Bernie

--
Herb Anderson

I'm stuck in my family tree.....and I can't get down!!

e-mail: [email protected]

[singhals]

Doug wrote:

I think what Bernie was looking for was something I have wished for some
time someone would (and may have, for all I know) scan the film
"dynamically" and display the results on the screen similarly to what a
microfilm reader/printer does. Then you could save and/or print any
frames of actual interest. That would entail something on the order of a
miniature video camera connected to the computer.

Many Mormon FHCs have precisely that technology. OTOH, having used it
extensively, I promise you it isn't fast. Over the long haul -- say
several hundred images? -- figure 90 seconds per frame.

Cheryl

[Dave Hinz]

On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 02:04:36 GMT, Doug <[email protected]> wrote:

mickg wrote:
BV wrote:

This may sound stupid but I have a number of census records for Canada
on 35 mm film and I was wondering if there was a way to read this film
through the computer . Just a thought . Bernie

You can buy 35mm film adapters for many proprietary scanners.

Unfortunately, that would mean scanning each frame of the film into the
computer for viewing, which would be a full time job for a considerable
period of time considering the speed of average scanners (plus the
inevitable tweaking of images that needs to be done to make them
[semi]clear).

You know, I just bought a uMax negative/Slide scanner (dedicated,
that's all it does, no flatbed). Can take a reel of 35mm film in,
and will shoot a frame at a time (finds the frames by edge detect)
until it runs out of film. In batch mode.

I wonder if I could take a roll of 35mm microfilm & batch it through
the scanner. It's using software called "silverfast" which does a
_ton_ of pre-processing and filtering, some at scan time, some at
reconstruction time.

Does 35mm microfilm have the same sprockets as 35mm camera film? If
so, if someone wants to send me a roll to try this with, I'd be more
than happy to spend a bunch of time seeing how to make it work.

Dave Hinz

I think what Bernie was looking for was something I have wished for some
time someone would (and may have, for all I know) scan the film
"dynamically" and display the results on the screen similarly to what a
microfilm reader/printer does. Then you could save and/or print any
frames of actual interest. That would entail something on the order of a
miniature video camera connected to the computer.

I don't think you'd get the resolution. For microfiche, the
current scanners are _juuuuuust_ readable with typwritten text,
not sure how they'd be with gothic script or something. We're
almost there, but I'd be happy to try a roll or three of 35mm scans
if someone would like to lend me some to play with. (I'm in Wisconsin,
USA if that matters).

Dave Hinz

[Lesley Robertson]

"Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

Does 35mm microfilm have the same sprockets as 35mm camera film? If
so, if someone wants to send me a roll to try this with, I'd be more
than happy to spend a bunch of time seeing how to make it work.

The film my OPR came on had no sprocket holes - I had to wind it between

reels by hand.
Lesley Robertson

[Dave Hinz]

On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 17:20:23 +0100, Lesley Robertson <[email protected]> wrote:

"Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

Does 35mm microfilm have the same sprockets as 35mm camera film? If
so, if someone wants to send me a roll to try this with, I'd be more
than happy to spend a bunch of time seeing how to make it work.

The film my OPR came on had no sprocket holes - I had to wind it between
reels by hand.

Well, I've got a machine shop, I could make new rollers...so, if
someone would like to send me a roll to experiment with, I'd be
happy to scan it for them.

Dave

[Charlie]

On 5 Jan 2005 16:12:29 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:

On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 02:04:36 GMT, Doug <[email protected]> wrote:
mickg wrote:
BV wrote:

This may sound stupid but I have a number of census records for Canada
on 35 mm film and I was wondering if there was a way to read this film
through the computer . Just a thought . Bernie

You can buy 35mm film adapters for many proprietary scanners.

Unfortunately, that would mean scanning each frame of the film into the
computer for viewing, which would be a full time job for a considerable
period of time considering the speed of average scanners (plus the
inevitable tweaking of images that needs to be done to make them
[semi]clear).

You know, I just bought a uMax negative/Slide scanner (dedicated,
that's all it does, no flatbed). Can take a reel of 35mm film in,
and will shoot a frame at a time (finds the frames by edge detect)
until it runs out of film. In batch mode.

I wonder if I could take a roll of 35mm microfilm & batch it through
the scanner. It's using software called "silverfast" which does a
_ton_ of pre-processing and filtering, some at scan time, some at
reconstruction time.

Does 35mm microfilm have the same sprockets as 35mm camera film?

35mm film was originally made for motion picture film, and was adapted
for cameras.... that's WHY it has the sprocket holes... so my guess is
that microfilm has the same sprocket holes.

If
so, if someone wants to send me a roll to try this with, I'd be more
than happy to spend a bunch of time seeing how to make it work.

Dave Hinz

I certainly think this would work fine. Of course, there are lots of

images on a roll of microfilm so consider the disk space required
beforehand.

I think what Bernie was looking for was something I have wished for some
time someone would (and may have, for all I know) scan the film
"dynamically" and display the results on the screen similarly to what a
microfilm reader/printer does. Then you could save and/or print any
frames of actual interest. That would entail something on the order of a
miniature video camera connected to the computer.

Viewer/printers available at some libraries and Clerk of Court offices

do a better job by optically displaying the image from the film, then
allowing a print to be made. There are models available that will
allow a scan to be made as well. I believe Minolta made a couple of
models.

I don't think you'd get the resolution. For microfiche, the
current scanners are _juuuuuust_ readable with typwritten text,
not sure how they'd be with gothic script or something. We're
almost there, but I'd be happy to try a roll or three of 35mm scans
if someone would like to lend me some to play with. (I'm in Wisconsin,
USA if that matters).

Dave Hinz

I do hope someone send a roll for you to try. I'd really like to hear
back how well it worked, and how long it takes.
Charlie Hoffpauir
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~charlieh/

[Dave Hinz]

On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 14:33:04 -0600, Charlie <[email protected]> wrote:

On 5 Jan 2005 16:12:29 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:

Does 35mm microfilm have the same sprockets as 35mm camera film?

35mm film was originally made for motion picture film, and was adapted
for cameras.... that's WHY it has the sprocket holes... so my guess is
that microfilm has the same sprocket holes.

Someone here said there are no sprocket holes. I've got the
facilities to make rollers any way necessary, so I'm not too stressed
about that.

I certainly think this would work fine. Of course, there are lots of
images on a roll of microfilm so consider the disk space required
beforehand.

My raid array can handle it, I hope. Wouldn't need too much bitdepth,
8 bits of greyscale should be just fine for anything of this sort,
and I'd probably convert them to .jpg on the fly at scan time, bypassing
saving it as a .tiff entirely.

Viewer/printers available at some libraries and Clerk of Court offices
do a better job by optically displaying the image from the film, then
allowing a print to be made. There are models available that will
allow a scan to be made as well. I believe Minolta made a couple of
models.

Every microfilm printer I've used has been black-or-white, no grey.
So getting the contrast just right is fiddly at best. But, perhaps
another way to digitize these films would be to use a microfilm
projector onto a screen, and a tripod/digital camera to read it.
Gets the resolution problems out of the way.

I don't think you'd get the resolution. For microfiche, the
current scanners are _juuuuuust_ readable with typwritten text,
not sure how they'd be with gothic script or something. We're
almost there, but I'd be happy to try a roll or three of 35mm scans
if someone would like to lend me some to play with. (I'm in Wisconsin,
USA if that matters).

I do hope someone send a roll for you to try. I'd really like to hear
back how well it worked, and how long it takes.

Doesn't have to be genealogy microfilm either, far as that goes, I'll
try anything.

Dave

[mickg]

Lesley Robertson wrote:

"BV" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

This may sound stupid but I have a number of census records for Canada
on 35 mm film and I was wondering if there was a way to read this film
through the computer . Just a thought . Bernie


It's not stupid. You can get adaptors for many scanners (I have one for the
HP scanner I use at work) and you can also but small film and neg scanners
which plug into a USB port. I have just scanner the whole parish reiste for
a scottish parish using the adaptor. It was a bit tedious and took 2 (wet)
Sunday afternoons, but as long as you're after legibility rather than
art-quality images, it's quite straightforward. Another possibility you
could investigate - here in the Netherlands, you can take 35 mm film to a
photography shop and they will transfer the images to cd for you - costs
less than getting the film printed.
Lesley Robertson


Don't try sneaking films out of your local FHC to do this

Good Idea Eve

MickG

[Lesley Robertson]

"Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]...

On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 14:33:04 -0600, Charlie <[email protected]> wrote:
On 5 Jan 2005 16:12:29 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:

Does 35mm microfilm have the same sprockets as 35mm camera film?

35mm film was originally made for motion picture film, and was adapted
for cameras.... that's WHY it has the sprocket holes... so my guess is
that microfilm has the same sprocket holes.

Someone here said there are no sprocket holes. I've got the
facilities to make rollers any way necessary, so I'm not too stressed
about that.

I've looked at the archival OPR film from Scotland and another lot made for

work (the stuff that's being used to film records for long term storage)
here in the Netherlands, and neither sort has the holes. The film used in
the dutch Narional Archives doesn't have them either. I asked our Uni main
library and they said that their archival film doesn't have holes as they
don't want it stretched or distorted when in use.
Of course, as we all know, there's no hard and fast rules - there might be
some around with holes.

Lesley Robertson

[Lesley Robertson]

"mickg" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]...

Don't try sneaking films out of your local FHC to do this

Don't your hands fall off and your brains turn to green goo is you even
thing about doing such an evil thing????

Good Idea Eve

Eve????? She's the sassenach.
Lesley Robertson

[mickg]

Doug wrote:

mickg wrote:

BV wrote:

This may sound stupid but I have a number of census records for Canada
on 35 mm film and I was wondering if there was a way to read this film
through the computer . Just a thought . Bernie

You can buy 35mm film adapters for many proprietary scanners.


Unfortunately, that would mean scanning each frame of the film into the
computer for viewing, which would be a full time job for a considerable
period of time considering the speed of average scanners (plus the
inevitable tweaking of images that needs to be done to make them
[semi]clear). Ancestry.Com has already done a good deal of US census
image scanning that is available online, but I don't recall having seen
anything with the Canadian census.

I think what Bernie was looking for was something I have wished for some
time someone would (and may have, for all I know) scan the film
"dynamically" and display the results on the screen similarly to what a
microfilm reader/printer does. Then you could save and/or print any
frames of actual interest. That would entail something on the order of a
miniature video camera connected to the computer.

Doug

Well excuse my suggestion!

Actually some of the modern (expensive) scanners can do this quite
quickly. I believe some use a similar technology to that found in
Digital Cameras.

But yes it would still take time if you even set your scanner to the
size of a 35 mm film frame you'll see the scan time is relatively short.

Take a look at one of the Scanner sites (UMAX) springs to mind and see
what they have. They are closest to the wished for technology.

MickG

[mickg]

Dave Hinz wrote:

On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 14:33:04 -0600, Charlie <[email protected]> wrote:

On 5 Jan 2005 16:12:29 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:


Does 35mm microfilm have the same sprockets as 35mm camera film?

35mm film was originally made for motion picture film, and was adapted
for cameras.... that's WHY it has the sprocket holes... so my guess is
that microfilm has the same sprocket holes.


Someone here said there are no sprocket holes. I've got the
facilities to make rollers any way necessary, so I'm not too stressed
about that.


I certainly think this would work fine. Of course, there are lots of
images on a roll of microfilm so consider the disk space required
beforehand.


My raid array can handle it, I hope. Wouldn't need too much bitdepth,
8 bits of greyscale should be just fine for anything of this sort,
and I'd probably convert them to .jpg on the fly at scan time, bypassing
saving it as a .tiff entirely.


Viewer/printers available at some libraries and Clerk of Court offices
do a better job by optically displaying the image from the film, then
allowing a print to be made. There are models available that will
allow a scan to be made as well. I believe Minolta made a couple of
models.


Every microfilm printer I've used has been black-or-white, no grey.
So getting the contrast just right is fiddly at best. But, perhaps
another way to digitize these films would be to use a microfilm
projector onto a screen, and a tripod/digital camera to read it.
Gets the resolution problems out of the way.


I don't think you'd get the resolution. For microfiche, the
current scanners are _juuuuuust_ readable with typwritten text,
not sure how they'd be with gothic script or something. We're
almost there, but I'd be happy to try a roll or three of 35mm scans
if someone would like to lend me some to play with. (I'm in Wisconsin,
USA if that matters).

I do hope someone send a roll for you to try. I'd really like to hear
back how well it worked, and how long it takes.


Doesn't have to be genealogy microfilm either, far as that goes, I'll
try anything.

Dave

You could be starting yourself a whole new line of business Dave. Think

of me here in Florida when you start Franchising

MickG

[Dave Hinz]

On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 22:37:50 +0100, Lesley Robertson <[email protected]> wrote:

"Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]...

Someone here said there are no sprocket holes. I've got the
facilities to make rollers any way necessary, so I'm not too stressed
about that.

I've looked at the archival OPR film from Scotland and another lot made for
work (the stuff that's being used to film records for long term storage)
here in the Netherlands, and neither sort has the holes. The film used in
the dutch Narional Archives doesn't have them either. I asked our Uni main
library and they said that their archival film doesn't have holes as they
don't want it stretched or distorted when in use.
Of course, as we all know, there's no hard and fast rules - there might be
some around with holes.

You know, worst case, I could make a contact-print to 35mm camera
film that _does_ have holes. Increases the cost of the process,
though, and kind of makes it non-portable (needing a darkroom and
all). I wonder if photographing a projection isn't the best way
after all.

Dave

[Dave Hinz]

On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 21:40:55 GMT, mickg <[email protected]> wrote:

Actually some of the modern (expensive) scanners can do this quite
quickly. I believe some use a similar technology to that found in
Digital Cameras.

Yup, almost exactly.

But yes it would still take time if you even set your scanner to the
size of a 35 mm film frame you'll see the scan time is relatively short.

But, if you can batch-scan a whole strip at a time, the "time" is
only how long you have to interact with the machine; come back later
and it's done. Elapsed time is long, but applied time is nearly nil.

Take a look at one of the Scanner sites (UMAX) springs to mind and see
what they have. They are closest to the wished for technology.

I've got the Umax "Powerlook 180", 1800DPI scanning. They claim that
this is good for 8x10" images at "exceptional image quality" whatever
that means. On 35mm slides, they come out better than the grain of
the Ektrachrome film I've been scanning; obviously the grain for microfilm
is smaller. But, if it claims "exceptional" quality on an 8x10, it
should do good for a page of handwritten records.

If I replaced the sprocket rollers with rubber friction rollers, that
should do it.

Dave Hinz

[mickg]

Lesley Robertson wrote:

"mickg" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]...


Don't try sneaking films out of your local FHC to do this


Don't your hands fall off and your brains turn to green goo is you even
thing about doing such an evil thing????


Good Idea Eve


Eve????? She's the sassenach.
Lesley Robertson



Oops

That is the creature in the woods of Oregon? oh no that's the Sasquatch!

MickG

[Dave Hinz]

On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 21:47:22 GMT, mickg <[email protected]> wrote:

Dave Hinz wrote:

Doesn't have to be genealogy microfilm either, far as that goes, I'll
try anything.

You could be starting yourself a whole new line of business Dave. Think
of me here in Florida when you start Franchising

Yeah, and think of me in Wisconsin tomorrow morning when I'll have
8-10 inches of snow on the driveway. Ah well.

[Susan]

You can send the negatives to Kodak's Ofto and they'll put them on a CD.
I'm very pleased with their work.
http://www.ofoto.com/Welcome.jsp

Sue

"BV" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

This may sound stupid but I have a number of census records for Canada
on 35 mm film and I was wondering if there was a way to read this film
through the computer . Just a thought . Bernie

[f/f george]

Walmart will do it too.

On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 04:18:08 GMT, "Susan" <[email protected]>
wrote:

You can send the negatives to Kodak's Ofto and they'll put them on a CD.
I'm very pleased with their work.
http://www.ofoto.com/Welcome.jsp

Sue

"BV" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
This may sound stupid but I have a number of census records for Canada
on 35 mm film and I was wondering if there was a way to read this film
through the computer . Just a thought . Bernie

[mickg]

Susan wrote:

You can send the negatives to Kodak's Ofto and they'll put them on a CD.
I'm very pleased with their work.
http://www.ofoto.com/Welcome.jsp

Sue

"BV" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

This may sound stupid but I have a number of census records for Canada
on 35 mm film and I was wondering if there was a way to read this film
through the computer . Just a thought . Bernie




Sounds good but my questions with that would be that there are a lot of

frames on a Parish Record film probably enough for many CDs could be
costly, and maybe one only wants selected frames, how would one reliably
list those wanted and could Kodak do that.

I'm a believer in "If you want it done right, do it yourself!"

MickG

[singhals]

Dave Hinz wrote:

Every microfilm printer I've used has been black-or-white, no grey.
So getting the contrast just right is fiddly at best. But, perhaps
another way to digitize these films would be to use a microfilm
projector onto a screen, and a tripod/digital camera to read it.
Gets the resolution problems out of the way.

You get better results with grey-scale than B&W. Color is even better,
but then you run into image-size issues PDQ.

Cheryl