Norwegian vs. Old Norse

[Michael VanBaaren]

Could someone tell me when the old Norse language gave way to what is now
Norwegian? Did Swedish and Danish emerge as their own languages the same
time that Norwegian did? I am trying to get a better grasp on spelling
changes over the centuries in documenting my family. I would appreciate any
comments anyone has to share. Thanks!

--
Michael VanBaaren
Sacramento, California, USA

[Hugh Watkins]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael VanBaaren" <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: no.fritid.slektsforsking.etterlysing
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 4:37 AM
Subject: Norwegian vs. Old Norse

Could someone tell me when the old Norse language gave way to what is now
Norwegian? Did Swedish and Danish emerge as their own languages the same
time that Norwegian did? I am trying to get a better grasp on spelling
changes over the centuries in documenting my family. I would appreciate any
comments anyone has to share. Thanks!

LOL

no genealogy in your posting

juat ask a librarian and head for an encylopedia or two
OT here head for

news:soc.culture.nordic

BTW which norwegian there are many versions ?

google knows
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=n ... +norwegian


Encyclopedia: Old Norse language
.... Norwegian was later heavily influenced by East Scandinavian. Among these, Icelandic
and the closely related Faroese have changed the least from Old Norse in ...
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedi ... e-language

now write about genealogy or go away

Hugh W




I'm trying to make a weB LOG weekly
http://hughw36.blogspot.com/

http://www.genealogi.co.uk

[Peter Fiskerstrand]

Try to ask your question in no.fag.spraak.diverse


"Michael VanBaaren" <[email protected]> skrev i melding
news:[email protected]...

Could someone tell me when the old Norse language gave way to what is now
Norwegian? Did Swedish and Danish emerge as their own languages the same
time that Norwegian did? I am trying to get a better grasp on spelling
changes over the centuries in documenting my family. I would appreciate
any
comments anyone has to share. Thanks!

--
Michael VanBaaren
Sacramento, California, USA

[Jan T Pharo]

Thu, 19 Aug 2004 07:21:17 -0000, "Hugh Watkins" <[email protected]>;
<[email protected]>; <no.fritid.slektsforsking.etterlysing>:

now write about genealogy or go away
ironi

Eller: "skriv norsk eller forsvinn..."
</ironi>
alvorlig talt, et hyggeligere hint hadde vel vært like bra?

For øvrig: <news:europa.linguas.germanic.nord> er en OK gruppe for slike
spørsmål.
--
/jan
<><

[Michael VanBaaren]

I did indicate that I am trying to get a better grasp on spelling changes to
record the names of ancestors properly over the centuries. How does that
not have to do with genealogy? I figured this was the best place to post
since I am seeking a genealogists perspective, not necessarily that of a
linguist.

Michael VanBaaren


"Hugh Watkins" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael VanBaaren" <[email protected]
Newsgroups: no.fritid.slektsforsking.etterlysing
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 4:37 AM
Subject: Norwegian vs. Old Norse


Could someone tell me when the old Norse language gave way to what is
now
Norwegian? Did Swedish and Danish emerge as their own languages the
same
time that Norwegian did? I am trying to get a better grasp on spelling
changes over the centuries in documenting my family. I would appreciate
any
comments anyone has to share. Thanks!


LOL

no genealogy in your posting

juat ask a librarian and head for an encylopedia or two
OT here head for

news:soc.culture.nordic

BTW which norwegian there are many versions ?

google knows

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=n ... +norwegian


Encyclopedia: Old Norse language
... Norwegian was later heavily influenced by East Scandinavian. Among
these, Icelandic
and the closely related Faroese have changed the least from Old Norse in
....
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedi ... e-language

now write about genealogy or go away

Hugh W




I'm trying to make a weB LOG weekly
http://hughw36.blogspot.com/

http://www.genealogi.co.uk

[Michael VanBaaren]

Also, your final comment, Mr. Watkins, was OBNOXIOUS and uncalled for. You
don't own this newsgroup so should not order people away based merely on
your misunderstanding of my post. My post IS about genealogy, so why don't
YOU go away??

"Hugh Watkins" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael VanBaaren" <[email protected]
Newsgroups: no.fritid.slektsforsking.etterlysing
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 4:37 AM
Subject: Norwegian vs. Old Norse


Could someone tell me when the old Norse language gave way to what is
now
Norwegian? Did Swedish and Danish emerge as their own languages the
same
time that Norwegian did? I am trying to get a better grasp on spelling
changes over the centuries in documenting my family. I would appreciate
any
comments anyone has to share. Thanks!


LOL

no genealogy in your posting

juat ask a librarian and head for an encylopedia or two
OT here head for

news:soc.culture.nordic

BTW which norwegian there are many versions ?

google knows

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=n ... +norwegian


Encyclopedia: Old Norse language
... Norwegian was later heavily influenced by East Scandinavian. Among
these, Icelandic
and the closely related Faroese have changed the least from Old Norse in
....
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedi ... e-language

now write about genealogy or go away

Hugh W




I'm trying to make a weB LOG weekly
http://hughw36.blogspot.com/

http://www.genealogi.co.uk

[Michael VanBaaren]

Some of the responses to my post are rather rude. I thought this newsgroup
was a bit more friendly than this?? I've frequenly posted questions on here
and this is the first time I've received such direct rudeness in response.
What's going on ?????

"Michael VanBaaren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

Could someone tell me when the old Norse language gave way to what is now
Norwegian? Did Swedish and Danish emerge as their own languages the same
time that Norwegian did? I am trying to get a better grasp on spelling
changes over the centuries in documenting my family. I would appreciate
any
comments anyone has to share. Thanks!

--
Michael VanBaaren
Sacramento, California, USA

[Ivar Ståle Ertesvåg]

Michael VanBaaren:

Some of the responses to my post are rather rude. I thought this newsgroup
was a bit more friendly than this?? I've frequenly posted questions on here
and this is the first time I've received such direct rudeness in response.
What's going on ?????

In just this issue, nothing particular is going on. Now and then there
have been such mis-responses on these groups all the time I have been
reading (12 years, I think).

"Michael VanBaaren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

Could someone tell me when the old Norse language gave way to what is now
Norwegian? Did Swedish and Danish emerge as their own languages the same
time that Norwegian did? I am trying to get a better grasp on spelling
changes over the centuries in documenting my family. I would appreciate any
comments anyone has to share. Thanks!

It is a complex matter. It depends on what you mean by "gave way to", it

depends on whether you mean writing or speaking, who that is
writing/speaking, what they write/speak about .... and what you mean by
"Norwegian".

You are, actually, asking for the complete history of Norway AD
1000-2000...
Unless you are more specific, there is no brief answer. Perhaps a major
encyclopaedia (Britannica, Americana, ....) may help as a starter.

And the answer is.... ... highly disputed anyway.

[Ivar Ståle Ertesvåg]

Ivar S. Ertesvåg wrote:

Michael VanBaaren:

Some of the responses to my post are rather rude. I thought this
newsgroup
was a bit more friendly than this?? I've frequenly posted questions
on here
and this is the first time I've received such direct rudeness in
response.
What's going on ?????


In just this issue, nothing particular is going on. Now and then there
have been such mis-responses on these groups all the time I have been
reading (12 years, I think).


"Michael VanBaaren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

Could someone tell me when the old Norse language gave way to what is
now
Norwegian? Did Swedish and Danish emerge as their own languages the
same
time that Norwegian did? I am trying to get a better grasp on spelling
changes over the centuries in documenting my family.

Sorry, I overlooked this sentence. This issue is, actually, an issue
separate from the two preceeding questions. Exact normative spelling of
words in general seems to be a modern idea that was gradually
implemented in Danish (written, of course) from the 18th century.
Normative spelling of names was, actually, not implemented until the
first part of 20th century.

Spelling of names in the 17th - 19th centuries can be quite incidencial.
(Although you can see some development)

I would

appreciate any
comments anyone has to share. Thanks!


It is a complex matter. It depends on what you mean by "gave way to", it
depends on whether you mean writing or speaking, who that is
writing/speaking, what they write/speak about .... and what you mean by
"Norwegian".

You are, actually, asking for the complete history of Norway AD
1000-2000...
Unless you are more specific, there is no brief answer. Perhaps a major
encyclopaedia (Britannica, Americana, ....) may help as a starter.

And the answer is.... ... highly disputed anyway.

[Hugh Watkins]

"Ivar S. Ertesvåg" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...

Ivar S. Ertesvåg wrote:


Michael VanBaaren:

Some of the responses to my post are rather rude. I thought this
newsgroup
was a bit more friendly than this?? I've frequenly posted questions
on here
and this is the first time I've received such direct rudeness in
response.
What's going on ?????


In just this issue, nothing particular is going on. Now and then there
have been such mis-responses on these groups all the time I have been
reading (12 years, I think).


"Michael VanBaaren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

Could someone tell me when the old Norse language gave way to what is
now
Norwegian? Did Swedish and Danish emerge as their own languages the
same
time that Norwegian did? I am trying to get a better grasp on spelling
changes over the centuries in documenting my family.

Sorry, I overlooked this sentence. This issue is, actually, an issue
separate from the two preceeding questions. Exact normative spelling of
words in general seems to be a modern idea that was gradually
implemented in Danish (written, of course) from the 18th century.
Normative spelling of names was, actually, not implemented until the
first part of 20th century.

Spelling of names in the 17th - 19th centuries can be quite incidencial.
(Although you can see some development)

I would
appreciate any
comments anyone has to share. Thanks!


It is a complex matter. It depends on what you mean by "gave way to", it
depends on whether you mean writing or speaking, who that is
writing/speaking, what they write/speak about .... and what you mean by
"Norwegian".

You are, actually, asking for the complete history of Norway AD
1000-2000...
Unless you are more specific, there is no brief answer. Perhaps a major
encyclopaedia (Britannica, Americana, ....) may help as a starter.

And the answer is.... ... highly disputed anyway.

LOL

a badly thought out question

wastes everyones time
first a trip to a good library or some googling would help

in genealogy use the first known spelling ALWAYS
maiden names for women too follow the same rule

but add the AKA as needed

spelling is not fixed and never was
errors are made by priests and clerks who do not know local dialects

many of your ancestors could not read or write

in little Denmark today they cannot understand each other from east to west or to the south
eg
a west coast fisherman speaking on tv news gets subtitles


The "danish tongue" of a 1000 years ago was close to modern icelandic or old saxon

in an enormous country like Norway dialects vary from valley to valley and even from farm to farm

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=n ... ogm%C3%A5l

De to nationalsprog
.... Det sprog der blev til ved blandingen af det danske og norske sprog, og som i dag
tales af de fleste nordmænd, det er det sprog, der kaldes "bogmål". ...
birthe.andresen1.person.emu.dk/detonationalsprog.htm

http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norsk_sprog
Norsk er et nordgermansk sprog, og har to officielle former: bokmål og nynorsk.

Bokmål (bogmål), med den nu uofficielle form rigsmål, der er mere konservativ, er et dansk, østskandinavisk (kontinentalt) sprog af
den germanske sprogfamilie, stærkt påvirket af plattysk. Nynorsk er, til trods for stor påvirkning fra dansk, regnet som et
vestskandinavisk sprog. 85 procent af nordmænderne skriver bokmål eller rigsmål.

Indtil begyndelsen af det tyvende århundrede var skriftlig norsk helt identisk med dansk. Forskellen mellem bokmål/rigsmål og dansk
er idag meget lille, <<



and you cannot sensibly discuss a language you can neitheer speak nor read



rigsmål,

Bokmål

nynorsk

trondheimsk

http://www.ub.uib.no/ is a good source
http://www.ub.uib.no/e-ressurser/

Ethnologue, Languages of the World
.... Bibliography database last modified: November-2003 Publications catalog database
last modified: May-2004 Ethnologue data from Ethnologue: Languages of the World ...
http://www.ethnologue.com/home.asp

Each dot represents the primary location of a living language listed in the
Ethnologue.http://www.ethnologue.com/show_map.asp? ... pe&seq=101


http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=Norway

Kingdom of Norway, Kongeriket Norge. National or official languages:

Bokmal Norwegian, Nynorsk Norwegian. 4,419,000 (1998 UN). Literacy rate 96% to 100%.
Also includes Danish 12,000,
English,
Finnish 4,000,
Kurmanji 3,000,
Russian 3,000,
Spanish 6,500,
Swedish 21,000,
Tibetan, Urdu,
Vietnamese 99,000,
Chinese 3,000,
from Africa 7,000,
from Pakistan 17,000. Information mainly from M. Stephens 1976; B. Comrie 1987; I. Hancock 1991; J. Hupli 1998; B. Winsa 1998.
Christian, secular.
Blind population 4,000 (1982 WCE).
Deaf population 4,000 to 261,618 (1998). Deaf institutions: 12. Data accuracy estimate: B.

The number of languages listed for Norway is 11. Of those, all are living languages. Diversity index 0.08.

Dialects: WESTERN NORWEGIAN (COASTAL NORWEGIAN),
CENTRAL NORWEGIAN (MIDLAND NORWEGIAN),
EASTERN NORWEGIAN (OSTLANDET),
NORTHERN NORWEGIAN (TRONDELAAG, NORDLAND).

Classification: Indo-European, Germanic, North, East Scandinavian, Danish-Swedish, Danish-Bokmal, Bokmal.

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=NSL

good luck

Hugh W


--

I'm trying to make a weB LOG weekly
http://hughw36.blogspot.com/

http://www.genealogi.co.uk

[Øystein Lillegaard]

Here is some of what I found about Norwegian language.
Best regards
Øystein

Prior to 500 AD the Norwegian language was Urnordic. It then changed to the
Norrøn until the year 1350 AD. The middle Norwegian language was used
between 1350 and 1525, and later was influenced by Danish and other
languages. .




"Michael VanBaaren" <[email protected]> skrev i melding
news:k%[email protected]...

Some of the responses to my post are rather rude. I thought this
newsgroup
was a bit more friendly than this?? I've frequenly posted questions on
here
and this is the first time I've received such direct rudeness in response.
What's going on ?????

"Michael VanBaaren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Could someone tell me when the old Norse language gave way to what is
now
Norwegian? Did Swedish and Danish emerge as their own languages the
same
time that Norwegian did? I am trying to get a better grasp on spelling
changes over the centuries in documenting my family. I would appreciate
any
comments anyone has to share. Thanks!

--
Michael VanBaaren
Sacramento, California, USA

[Dave Hinz]

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 00:56:48 GMT, Michael VanBaaren <[email protected]> wrote:

Some of the responses to my post are rather rude. I thought this newsgroup
was a bit more friendly than this?? I've frequenly posted questions on here
and this is the first time I've received such direct rudeness in response.
What's going on ?????

These groups are mostly friendly, don't let the occasional problem put
you off. I find your question interesting, and don't have anything to
add so I haven't.

What I can say is that I've been reading some of the Old Norse (middle-
Norse more like) in the documents at the Diplomatarium Norvegicum collection,
and I found an old-norse to English dictionary at amazon.com which has been
of some use. That far back, it almost reads like Old English. Also, I
used to work with someone from Iceland, and she could read documents from
the 1300's in Norway, as if she was reading a newspaper. Perhaps an
Icelandic-English dictionary would be of use if you're trying to read
the language.

Hope this helps,
Dave Hinz

[Per Vidar Barth Lilje]

Extremely stupid answer from one who is a pure amateur:

It seems that all he North Germanic languages developed from one
common language called "Urnordic". In the centuries before the Viking
age, this underwent very large changes and became what now is called
"old norse" or in the middle ages often was described as "the Danish
tounge". Quite early, differences appeared (at least before 1000 AD)
between West-Nordic (Norway, Iceland) and East-Nordic (Sweden,
Denmark). I.e., the three genders of urnordic were kept in west-Nordic
but reduced to two genders in east-Nordic. A relatively standardised
written Norwegian materialized in the 12th, 13th and early 14th
centuries. Present day written Icelandic is almost identical (but
pronunciation has changed, probably quite dramatically).

In the 14th and 15th centuries spoken Norwegian underwent enormous
changes, mostly in parallel with Danish and Swedish, mainly because of
influence from medeival low German. E.g., the system of four tenses of
the noun like in present day high German mostly disappeared in this
period. However, the low German influence was possibly a bit smaller
in Norway than in Danmark and in Sweden. It is (or at least was)
believed that the local dialects spoken (partially because of less
travel and more isolation than in the viking age) in Norway
materialized in this period and stayed more or less unchanged from the
end of this period (about 1500) until the end of the 19th
century. Written Norwegian lost its standardisation, and writing in
the 15th and early 16th century varied a lot, trying to mimic (the
continually changing) spoken Norwegian. From the 16th century, Danish
took over as the written language in Norway, as a relatively large
part of the upper classes (clergymen and higher civil servants) were
Danes. So e.g., 1550-1850 there didn't exist any written Norwegian
language, only written Danish. The language spoken by the people were
the local dialects in the countryside, a version o Norwegian heavily
influenced by Danish in the cities (in the upper classes it became
customary to speak mostly Danish words [but still influenced by
Norwegian dialects, especially in vocabulary] and using Danish
grammar, with Norwegian pronounciation). The written language was
Danish, but as noted by others, there was no normative spelling of
words in Danish in this period (at least not before late 18th
century). And names were spelled by whoever wrote them as he thought
appropriate. Some clergymen would write a Norwegian name more or less
as he heard it, others would try to translate it to the equivalent
Danish name (Per -> Peder, Ola -> Ole, Kari -> Karen etc.). You will
often find the same person's name spelled in several diferent ways
depending on who wrote it. I.e., you cannot say that one spelling is
the CORRECT spelling of a name before late in the 19th century.

After Norwegian independence in 1814, Danish continued to be the
official written language of Norway, albeit famous authors like
Bjørnstjerne Bjørnson and Henrik Ibsen replaced Danish words not used
in spoken Norwegian with their equivalent Norwegian words (e.g., dreng
-> gutt, pige -> jente). After 1850 the linguists Ivar Aasen
(1813-1896) and Knud Knudsen (1812-1895) independently constructed two
new Norwegian written languages, based on different
philosophies. Aasen's language (originally called "landsmål") was
based on rural dialects he found as l"unpolluted" from Danish as
possible, and was also somewhat influenced from old norse. Knudsen's
language (originally called "riksmål") was based on the spoken
language spoken by the upper classes, especially in the cities and in
central south-eastern Norway. In 1885 the Norwegian parliament
(Stortinget) declared that both these two languages should be the official
languages of Norway. And still they are, even though riksmål has been
renamed "bokmål" and landsmål has been renamed "nynorsk", and both
have gone through a large number of reforms of spelling and grammar,
partially bringing them closer together. Today approximately 80% of
Norwegian write "bokmål" (i.e., the construction of Knud Knudsen with
later modifiacations) while 20% write "nynorsk" (Ivar Aasen's
construction with later modifications). Bokmål is quite a lot closer
to Danish than nynorsk is, on the other hand, nynorsk may look a bit
more similar to Swedish.

Per B. Lilje

[Dave Hinz]

On 20 Aug 2004 16:40:57 +0200, Per Lilje <[email protected]> wrote:

Extremely stupid answer from one who is a pure amateur:

It seems that all he North Germanic languages developed from one
common language called "Urnordic". In the centuries before the Viking
age, this underwent very large changes and became what now is called
"old norse" or in the middle ages often was described as "the Danish
tounge".

(snip of extremly useful answer from someone who is clearly very well
versed in the topic)

Thanks, Per, that's the best summary I've ever read on the topic.

Dave Hinz