Blount-Ayala

[Gjest]

On Jan 24, 10:56 pm, [email protected] wrote:

Michael,

I was going to reply to your first two messages, but you have now covered
much of what I was going to write (except I had not seen the possible marriage
of Katherine to Peter Sainthill, so I had no problem with her). Instead I
give my transcription of Sir Humphrey's Will:

Summary of Will
Humfrey Browne (-Will 12 Nov 1562 pr 14 Jan 1562/3 request to be bur St
Martin's the Orgar, Candlewick Str., London) Justice of Common Pleas,
Westminster; My wife Agnes; Sons: George Browne (s&h) Daughters: Mary Browne; Christain
Browne (to have pastures in Epping); Katherine Browne; probably all unmarried
as not to marry without permission; Brother-in-law: Sir Robert Throckmorton
knt; Nephew: Anthony Browne, Justice of Common Pleas, Westminster. Others:
Richard Townshen and wife Katherine [Humphry Browne' daughter m a Richard
Townshend, but he had died 1544?] Property: Cow Lane, St Sepulchre, London; Manor
of Cryfield, Gloucs; rectory of Manden or Manndon als Battellshall, Essex;
Manor of Perryball [ac: ?= Perivale below] als Little Grindford, Middlesex

In the name of god amen I S^r^ Humfrey / Browne knighte one of the Queens
majestes Justies of her common pleas at Westm' being of / whole mynde and
perfect memory praise be to god maketh thys my testament and laste will /
concerning my gooddes and landes hereafter declared the xij th daye of November in
the fourth / yere of the Raigne of o^r^ sorevaigne Ladie Elizabeth by the grace
of god of England ffrance and / Irelande Quene deffender of the faith etc,
in maner and forme followinge fforst I bequeath / my soule to almightie god my
boddie to be buried within the parish church of S^t^ Martins the / Orgars in
the cittie of London if I departe this presant life within tenne miles of the
same / cittie and that in noe sumptuns mannor but after a charitable fasshon
and the greatest case / therin to be donne for me to be bestowed and given
to the poore and nedie people also I will that / my debts be paid which I owe
and restitu'con be made to all men to whome I have donne wronge / in tymes
past yf it be well proved and I will that my plate and and other my movable
goods / content'aton therof ffurther I give to the saide Agnes my wief all my
household stuf and hangings / in my little chamber within my mannor house
adjoying to cowlane in the parish of Saint / Sepulkers in London in the Which
chamber my brother in lawe S^r^ Robert Throckmorton / knight is accustomed to lye
in and called by the name of his chamber with all manner thanplemete /
therein also I give to my saide wief my scarlet bed commonly called my feelde bedd
wholy withall / the bedde bedsteed couletts curtens and all other things to
the same belonging or any partetherof / Also I give to my said Wief all suche
goods and cattells that she had before the tyme I married / her that wise be
unsoulde and ungiven alvine and also all the proffetts and encreace of the
said // goods and cattalles ever sithens the tyme of the saide mariage Also I
will and give to my saide / wief all the rings chaynes of golde, villements
of golde Juells stones and golde pinyhes woorkes / etc whatsoever whiche she
now hath and had before the tyme I married her ffurther I give to my / my
daughter xp'ian my lease of cowleer being certayne pastures within the parrish of
Eppinge / in the countie of essex whereof Thomas Lycynes of Epping ys now
temiante ymmediatly after / my decease And from that tyme she shall have and
take the proffitts of the same Also I will / and give to every of my housholde
sr'nnts whiche take wage one quarter of a yeres wages next / after my decease
and meate and drinke for half a yere next following my decease yf they will
/ take yt and to every of the same my ser'nnts then in wage xx^s^ in money.
Now concerning / my will of my landes herafter following ffirst I will that
if George Browne my sonne and heire / apparante dye withoute issue of his
boddie laufully begotten that then immiadiatly after his / decease my Manor of
Cryfeld with thappt'enncs in the countie of Gloucter and my rectorie / of
Manden with thapp^r^te'nich in this countie of essex shall wholy remayne to Mary
Browne / xp'ian Browne, and kathren Browne my daughter and to theire heires
for ever Also where I / did entayle the mannor of Mannden otherwise called
Battellshalle in the saide countie of / essex and the mannor of perryball
othewise called littell Grindford in the countie of / Midd' unto Richarde Towneshend
and to Kathyeren his wief and to theires of the boddie of the / same
kathcren lawfully begotten I will that yf thissue of the same Katheren of her boddie
lawfully / begotten dye withoute issue of their boddies lawfully begotten,
that then the same Manners / with theire appetenncs shall then ymmediatly
remayne to the said Mary xp'ian and katheryn / Browne my daughters and to theire
heirs for ev' ffurthermore I ^will and^ give to the p'son and church
wardens / of the parish of St Martins the Orgars abovesaide and to theire
successors all those mysay) / messuage or tennements situate and being in Cowlane in
the parish of St Sepulkers about / standing and being on thest syde of my
greate gate of my saide man'con house to thintent that / they and every of them
and their successors shall give and dispose the Rents and proffitts of / the
same tennements in manner and forme following that is to saye that they and
every of / them shall yearley give and dispose every frydaye weekely from the
first daye of December / till the last daye of March then next following ij
horselods of charcoles amongst the / poore and nedest persons of the same
theire parrish another overplus of the said Rente and oth^r^ / proffitts to be
given amongst the poore people of theire saide parrish yearly from tyme to tyme
/ Provided alwayes that yf my said daughters or any of them doe marry
withoute the assente / and consente of Thomas Husse and Gilbert Husse gentlemen my
bretheren in Law Robert / Husse and John Husse of Greys Inne in the suburbs of
London or of the moste parte of / them that then yf the same my daughters or
any of them shall otherwise doe withoute theire / assents shall inherret noe
parcell of my saide lands, But that the same shall then remayne to / thother
of my saide daughters that shall marry by thassents aforsaide And of this my
present / testamente and laste will I ordayne and make Agnus my said wief my
sole exectrix to whome / I bequeathe and give the residue of my goods my
debts funeralls legacy and childrens por'cons / dyscharged And further doe
hartely desire and praye my nephew Anthony Browne one of ye / Queens majestes
inlawe of her common pleas at Westm' that yt will please hym to be my / Overseer
of this my last will and testamente and also to ayde and helpe my saide wif
and my / younge children that they have noe wrongs And for his paynes that he
shall take therein I give / to hym all my bookes of the lawe In witnes whereof
to this my present testamente and last will / I have putto my hande and
seale in the presence of these persons following whose names be / hereunder
subscribed the daye and yere ^first^ above written Thomas Tressham John Raly
clarke Will' / Elliot Robert Throckmorton Humfrey Browne Thomas Baggen Kay Bales
Roger Fairson /
Probatum ... Agnes Browne relicte et executrix... /

Indexed as Humphrey Browne, (Sir) one of the Queen's Majesty's Justice of
Her Common Pleas at Westminster; 14 January 1563; PROB 11/46

Regards,
Adrian

Adrian to the rescue!

Many thanks. This will shows that Katherine the wife of Richard
Townshend and Katherine the daughter of Sir Humphrey Browne are two
different people.

It does seem that the latter was unmarried at the time that the will
was made (1562) - although it also seems that his son and heir George
Brown was then still lving (according to Vis. Essex he died in 1558).

This would mean that Katherine, wife of Richard Townshend and sister
of Robert Shelton was probably born Katherine Shelton, as Robert's
1535 will suggests, the daughter of Ald. Nicholas Shelton and
Elizabeth nee Rawlyns. She married Townshend between 1535 and 1544.
And perhaps Vis. Devon is correct in saying that, after Townshend's
death in 1551, she married Peter Sainthill and died without further
issue sometime before her second husband's second wife (who died in
1569).

Cheers, Michael

[Gjest]

In a message dated 24/01/2008 01:20:32 GMT Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

MA-R:

ODNB confirms this was the case (biography under 'Humphrey Browne').

However, it gets the order of his marriages wrong, stating his first
wife (married 1516) was Elizabeth Shelton (ff 1541), his second Anne
Vere, and his third Agnes Hussey.

Anne Vere must have been the first wife, as per Vis Essex. We know
that she was the mother of George Brown and was dead by 1515 (PRO C
1/340/43: 'Anne late the wife of Humphrey Brown'); George had married
Anne Shelton by 1518 (PRO C 1/383/24).
<<<

There may still be a problem with the order of marriages, or perhaps there
was a 4th marriage because:

1556—EASTER TERM, 2 & 3 PHILIP & MARY.
....
Plaintiffs: ...
Robert Atherton and William Grymston, gents.

Deforciants: .
William Ryther, esq., and Leonard Atherton, gent.

Nature and Situation of the Property:
Messuage with lands in Harwode and Stockton, to be held to Leonard Atherton
for a term of 21 years next following the decease of Ann Browne, wife of
Humphrey Browne, kt.

Citation: 'Yorkshire Fines: 1556', Feet of Fines of the Tudor period
[Yorks]: part 1: 1486-1571 (1887), pp. 189-99. URL:
_http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=49631&strquery="Ann%20Browne_
(http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... &strquery="Ann%20Browne) ". Date accessed: 31
August 2007.

So it looks as though this Ann had died not long before 1556, assuming this
is the correct Sir Humphrey.


By the way, the following Agnes would seem to be Sir Humphrey's last wife:

House of Commons Journal Volume 1
04 March 1563
....
Bills of Restitution.
....
L. 1. The Bill for Restitution in Blood for the Heirs and Cousins of the
late Lord Hussey, viz. Thomas, Gilbert, Sons of John Lord Hussey, Anne, Daughter
of G. L. Grey [ac: George Lord Grey], Wife to Lord Hussey, and Lady Brigett
his Wife, Lady Elizabeth Throkmorton, Dame Agnes Browne, Mary Dymmocke. [ac:
CP Vol VII p 17, Sir William Hussey, (s&h of Ld Hussey) of Beauvale was
restored to blood by AofP 3 Ed VI]
....
Sponsor: History of Parliament Trust; Publication: Journal of the House of
Commons: volume 1; Year published: 1802; Page image: Page 67; Citation: 'House
of Commons Journal Volume 1: 04 March 1563', Journal of the House of
Commons: volume 1: 1547-1629 (1802), p. 67. URL:
_http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid_ (http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid) =
6861&strquery="Agnes%20 Browne". Date accessed: 30 August 2007.


Regards,
Adrian

[Gjest]

On Jan 24, 11:36 pm, [email protected] wrote:

In a message dated 24/01/2008 01:20:32 GMT Standard Time,

[email protected] writes:

MA-R:

ODNB confirms this was the case (biography under 'Humphrey Browne').
However, it gets the order of his marriages wrong, stating his first
wife (married 1516) was Elizabeth Shelton (ff 1541), his second Anne
Vere, and his third Agnes Hussey.

Anne Vere must have been the first wife, as per Vis Essex. We know
that she was the mother of George Brown and was dead by 1515 (PRO C
1/340/43: 'Anne late the wife of Humphrey Brown'); George had married
Anne Shelton by 1518 (PRO C 1/383/24).


There may still be a problem with the order of marriages, or perhaps there
was a 4th marriage because:

1556--EASTER TERM, 2 & 3 PHILIP & MARY.
...
Plaintiffs: ...
Robert Atherton and William Grymston, gents.

Deforciants: .
William Ryther, esq., and Leonard Atherton, gent.

Nature and Situation of the Property:
Messuage with lands in Harwode and Stockton, to be held to Leonard Atherton
for a term of 21 years next following the decease of Ann Browne, wife of
Humphrey Browne, kt.

So it looks as though this Ann had died not long before 1556, assuming this
is the correct Sir Humphrey.

True. Or could this be the sale of a future reversion in anticipation
- ie Ann [Agnes] was not yet dead, but when she did come to die, the
21 years would start to run, and it was being sold in advance?

By the way, the following Agnes would seem to be Sir Humphrey's last wife:

House of Commons Journal Volume 1
04 March 1563
...
Bills of Restitution.
...
L. 1. The Bill for Restitution in Blood for the Heirs and Cousins of the
late Lord Hussey, viz. Thomas, Gilbert, Sons of John Lord Hussey, Anne, Daughter
of G. L. Grey [ac: George Lord Grey], Wife to Lord Hussey, and Lady Brigett
his Wife, Lady Elizabeth Throkmorton, Dame Agnes Browne, Mary Dymmocke.

Agreed. ODNB gives details of a suit of 1572, when she occupied his
London property as his widow.

Thanks, Adrian.

Cheers, MA-R

[Gjest]

In a message dated 24/01/2008 12:00:18 GMT Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

On Jan 24, 10:18 pm, [email protected] wrote:
On Jan 24, 8:42 pm, [email protected] wrote:





Looking at various near-contemporary Visitation records, we find that
Katherine, one of the daughters and coheirs of Sir Humphrey Brown, is
stated to have had three marriages.

(2) marriage to William Roper

According to the Visitation of Kent, 1619, pp 82-84:

http://www.uk-genealogy.org.uk/england/ ... index.html

"Sir William Roper of Eltham, son of Thomas Roper, married Katherine,
daughter and coheir of Sir William [sic] Brown of Ridley Hall, Essex,
justice of the Common Pleas", by whom he had three children: Anthony,
Thomas and Mary.

According to PROCAT, the will of William Roper of Eltham was proved
PCC 21 June 1578 (Prob 11/60).

Recte: this is the will of the elder William Roper (son-in-law of Sir
Thomas More); his son Thomas Roper married Lucy Brown, daughter of Sir
Anthony Brown (c1500-1548), the sister of the 1st Viscount Montague.
Thomas and Lucy Brown were the parents of Sir William Roper of Eltham,
purported husband of Katherine Brown.

Perhaps we can rule the Roper wedding out?

According to Collins's Peerage, 1812, vol vii, p 81, Sir William Roper
of Eltham married Catherine, daughter and coheir of Sir *Anthony*
Browne, of Ridley Hall, chief justice of the Commons Pleas; she was
buried at St Dunstan's, 20 February 1616.

But, according to ODNB, Sir Anthony Browne, chief justice of the
Common Pleas, nephew of Sir Humphrey Brown(e), died in 1567 without
issue.

MA-R

I have noticed this error, also followed by Burke's (1938 ed. p 2402) and by
Hasted's History of Kent, but I had assumed they had confused Sir Anthony
Browne knt of Ridley Hall with William Ropers mother Lucy d of Sir Anthony
Browne (and sis of Vt Montague, an unconnected family) and that the Visitation of
Kent 1619-21 p83 which has Catherine's m to Sir William Roper of Eltham as
correct, but now looking at the dates, Katherin's 1st husband Richard Townsend
died 1544 (by whom she had issue) would seem to make her too old to have
also married Sir William Roper and had issue by him. Back to the drawing board,
I guess.

Adrian

[Gjest]

Okay, I now see From what I wrote earlier and MA-R post (crossed in e-space)
it is the Richard Townsend marriage to Katherine Browne which is wrong.
This is also wrong in Burke's (1938 ed p 2431 Townsend) "Richard [Townsend] of
Brampton m Catherine, dau and coheir of Sir Humphrey Brown, Knt. of Ridley
Hall in Terling, Essex, one of the Justices of the Court of Common Pleas, and
d. 1544 (will proved 12 Feb. 1544), having by her (who m. 2ndly, Sir William
Roper)"

Adrian



In a message dated 24/01/2008 14:01:35 GMT Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

I wrote

I have noticed this error, also followed by Burke's (1938 ed. p 2402) and
by
Hasted's History of Kent, but I had assumed they had confused Sir Anthony
Browne knt of Ridley Hall with William Ropers mother Lucy d of Sir Anthony
Browne (and sis of Vt Montague, an unconnected family) and that the
Visitation of
Kent 1619-21 p83 which has Catherine's m to Sir William Roper of Eltham as
correct, but now looking at the dates, Katherin's 1st husband Richard
Townsend
died 1544 (by whom she had issue) would seem to make her too old to have
also married Sir William Roper and had issue by him. Back to the drawing
board,
I guess.

Adrian

[Gjest]

Morant's Essex has another version. Here Catherine Browne m1 William Roper
and _m2_ _Roger_ Townshend of Brampton and father of Sir Roger Townshend of
Rainham. Burke's has Sir Roger's father as the Richard who m Catherine Brown

(BTW Sir Roger Townshend's son JOHN TOWNSHEND was killed in a dual with
&shy;Sir MATHEW&shy; &shy;BROWNE of Betchworth, Surrey who was also killed)


"Robert Browne had Robert, Humfrey and Wiston This Humfrey Browne was
brought up to the Law, in the Middle Temple, created a Serjeant at Law, in 1532;
made King's Serjeant in 1536; one of the Justices of the common Pleas 20
November 1543; afterwards knighted. He dyed 5 Septemb 1562 possessed of
Ridley-hall in Terling and of Whitey Roding (see the other Volume p 128, 469) He was
twice married, By Anne his first wife daughter of Sir Henry Vere of Great
Addington he had George who dyed before him leaving Thomas his son that dyed
without issue. By Anne his second wife, dau of John Lord Hussey, he had Mary,
wife of Thomas Wilford of Kent Esq., Christian of Sir John Tufton: and
Catharine wife of Sir William Roper, remarried after his decease to Roger Townshend
of Brampton in Suffolk Esq., father of Sir Roger Townshend of Rainham.
(Pedigree & Inquis 5 Eliz Nu 18 [Janu 19 below] [1563])"
(Morants Essex, page 469, Vol. I)

Adrian


In a message dated 24/01/2008 14:50:39 GMT Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
Okay, I now see From what I wrote earlier and MA-R post (crossed in
e-space)
it is the Richard Townsend marriage to Katherine Browne which is wrong.
This is also wrong in Burke's (1938 ed p 2431 Townsend) "Richard
[Townsend] of
Brampton m Catherine, dau and coheir of Sir Humphrey Brown, Knt. of Ridley
Hall in Terling, Essex, one of the Justices of the Court of Common Pleas,
and
d. 1544 (will proved 12 Feb. 1544), having by her (who m. 2ndly, Sir
William
Roper)"

Adrian



In a message dated 24/01/2008 14:01:35 GMT Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

I wrote

I have noticed this error, also followed by Burke's (1938 ed. p 2402) and
by
Hasted's History of Kent, but I had assumed they had confused Sir Anthony
Browne knt of Ridley Hall with William Ropers mother Lucy d of Sir Anthony
Browne (and sis of Vt Montague, an unconnected family) and that the
Visitation of
Kent 1619-21 p83 which has Catherine's m to Sir William Roper of Eltham as

correct, but now looking at the dates, Katherin's 1st husband Richard
Townsend
died 1544 (by whom she had issue) would seem to make her too old to have
also married Sir William Roper and had issue by him. Back to the drawing
board,
I guess.

Adrian

[Gjest]

In a message dated 1/24/2008 2:16:39 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

Heinrich 'das Kind von Hessen' d.s.p???? How could you ? In his male
line till the present he has an enormous descent to include the present. One
granddaughter of Queen Victoria married a Hessen, a sister of Prince Philip
married a Hessen.>>
---------------------------------
That would explain it. For some reason I'm very interested in all the
interconnected minor English families but when I get into the thousands of German
princelings I just start to fall asleep.

OK I'll check it out and add the descent from him to Vickie





**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exer ... 0000002489

[D. Spencer Hines]

Very sloppy, misleading and incomplete on Leo's part.

A granddaughter of Queen Victoria, Princess Alice Maud Mary, married a
HESSEN-DARMSTADT -- namely:

Ludwig IV v. HESSEN-DARMSTADT Grossherzog v. Hessen und bei Rhein.

Whereas TWO sisters of Prince Philip married into relevant lines:

Sophia married a von HESSEN...

Whereas Cecilie married a von HESSEN-DARMSTADT.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

In a message dated 1/24/2008 2:16:39 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

Heinrich 'das Kind von Hessen' d.s.p???? How could you ? In his
male line till the present he has an enormous descent to include the
present.

One granddaughter of Queen Victoria married a Hessen, a sister
of Prince Philip married a Hessen.
---------------------------------
That would explain it. For some reason I'm very interested in all the
interconnected minor English families but when I get into the thousands of
German princelings I just start to fall asleep.

OK I'll check it out and add the descent from him to Vickie

[Steve]

On Jan 24, 12:28�pm, [email protected] wrote:

How much do you know about Dogs?

� �http://www.dogsinfos.com

I caught my wife redhanded cheating on me with our family dog.

[[email protected]]

"Steve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:c58b7f2c-9175-448c-add2-c8fd819bcdce@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 24, 12:28?pm, [email protected] wrote:

How much do you know about Dogs?

? ?http://www.dogsinfos.com

I caught my wife redhanded cheating on me with our family dog.

get a life sicko

[Gjest]

On Jan 24, 2:26�pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:

"Steve" <[email protected]> wrote in message

news:c58b7f2c-9175-448c-add2-c8fd819bcdce@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 24, 12:28?pm, [email protected] wrote:

How much do you know about Dogs?

? ?http://www.dogsinfos.com

I caught my wife redhanded cheating on me with our family dog.

get a life sicko
poor sick marqueer!

[[email protected]]

On Jan 24, 3:33 pm, [email protected] wrote:

On Jan 24, 2:26�pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:> "Steve" <[email protected]> wrote in message


get a life sicko

poor sick marqueer!
not at all ill

[Gjest]

This thread brings up a bigger point.
Can we describe any "ruler" who reports to no one higher as a King?
Is that the essential definition?
Of course we've had "Kings" who have an "Emperor" as their overlord.

Seems awfully similar to Dukes who have Kings as their overlord.
Just a bit more pretentious.

When John was proclaimed King of Ireland, his father had grand hopes of
being called, or maybe he actually called himself "Emperor"

Will Johnson





**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
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48)

[Leo van de Pas]

I would like to use the "most correct" term. If Encyclopedia Brittanica AND
Wikipedia have it wrong, should I follow their example?
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia


----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 8:44 AM
Subject: Re: Granada - king or Emir ?

In a message dated 1/24/2008 12:17:04 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

I went to Google, as one does, and found there are 55,800 entries for
King
of Granada, and onlyu 3,020 for Emir of Granada. Even the wicked
Wikipedia
uses King of Granada.
--------------------
Well as does Encyclopedia Brittanica, at least in their "Granada"
article.
The last "king" as they say, surrended his stronghold of the city of
Granada... etc

So at least Wikipedia is in good company.
Doesn't answer the question of what they called themselves





**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
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quotes in the subject and the body of the message


--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.10/1241 - Release Date:
1/24/2008 9:58 AM

[Gjest]

In a message dated 1/24/2008 12:17:04 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

I went to Google, as one does, and found there are 55,800 entries for King
of Granada, and onlyu 3,020 for Emir of Granada. Even the wicked Wikipedia
uses King of Granada.>>
--------------------
Well as does Encyclopedia Brittanica, at least in their "Granada" article.
The last "king" as they say, surrended his stronghold of the city of
Granada... etc

So at least Wikipedia is in good company.
Doesn't answer the question of what they called themselves





**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/n ... 3000000025
48)

[Gjest]

In a message dated 1/24/2008 3:40:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

Thanks for that Peter.

My dates on Louis, Langrave of Thuringia and his wife Elizabeth "The
Saint" of Hungary come from

Heraldry of the Royal Families of Europe, Table 89
Jiri Louda and Michael Maclagan. Clarkson N Potter, New York 1981

Where they say Elizabeth was b 1207 and d 1231, while Louis was b 1200
and d 1227

If true, Lizzie was only 20 when Louie died so it gives a fairly
narrow range into which they can have Herman and Sophia, to wit 1221
to 1228 (allowing the possiblity of a posthumous child)

Herman must have made an impression on somebody as he has his own
article here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_II ... _Thuringia
where they repeat 1221 but without inline source

Sophia went on to marry
Henry II, Duke of /Brabant/ (Lower Lorraine) reigned 1235-48

and they had a son
Henry I, Landgrave of /Hesse/

who either d.s.p. or I just didn't trace any line from him forward
yet.

Will Johnson

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[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and
the body of the message
Dear Will,
Henry I, Landgrave of Hesse died without issue ?

Flip ahead to Table 107-08 (specifically Table 108 of
the same book. Henry I was the progenitor of the dynasties of Hesse.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA






**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/n ... 3000000025
48)

[Gjest]

In a message dated 1/24/2008 1:56:38 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

Henry I, Landgrave of Hesse died without issue ?

Flip ahead to Table 107-08 (specifically Table 108 of
the same book. Henry I was the progenitor of the dynasties of Hesse.>>
-------------------------------------
Thanks for that I'll take a look when I get back to my office.
We're having cats and dogs and other things coming down on the roof today,
so I'm home with a few buckets and a new tarp....

Will





**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/n ... 3000000025
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[Gjest]

On Jan 25, 2:30 am, [email protected] wrote:

Morant's Essex has another version.  Here Catherine Browne m1 William  Roper
and m2  'Roger' Townshend of Brampton and father of Sir Roger Townshend of
Rainham.  Burke's has Sir Roger's father as the Richard who m Catherine Brown

Boy, I'm almost sorry I opened this can of worms!

It seems clear from contemporary evidence (recited above) that:

Sir Humphrey Brown (d 1562)

married (1) Anne Vere, dead by 1515 - had a son George, married to
Anne Shelton

married (2) Elizabeth Shelton nee Rawlins in or about 1516

married (3) Agnes (Anne) Hussey, daughter of Lord Hussey, who survived
him.

It's not clear who Humphrey Brown's father was - some sources call him
Robert, others Thomas - but it seems he had a brother Sir Wistan/
Weston Brown who was in turn the father of Sir Anthony Brown, Chief
Justice of the Common Pleas.

The Visitation of Essex says that Sir Wistan had another son, John
Brown, who married Audrey Vere, sister of Anne (married to Sir
Humphrey) - which would mean an uncle and nephew married sisters - not
impossible. It shows John and Audrey as having a son George Brown -
who would thus be nephew to Sir Anthony Brown - but ODNB says Sir
Anthony was succeeded by his *brother* George.

I think Vis Essex has a very unreliable pedigree - although I note
ODNB seems to need several corrections too.

Turning to Sir Humphrey's children:

(1) George, son by the first marriage, married Anne Shelton as a minor
by 1518 but had no (surviving) children. Admitted to the bar, 1528.
Vis Essex says he died in 1558, but his father's will indicates he was
still living in 1562. I cannot locate any obvious probate record for
George.

(2) Mary, daughter by the third marriage; apparently unmarried in
1562; married Thomas Wilford and left issue

(3) Christian, daughter by the third marriage; apparently unmarried in
1562; married Sir John Tufton; mother of the 1st Earl of Thanet (born
1578)

(4) Katherine, daughter by the third marriage; married Sir William
Roper of Eltham and died 1616; left issue.

Additionally, we have Katherine, wife successively of (i) Richard
Townshend of Raynham and (ii) Peter Sainthill. She was living and
apparently unmarried in 1535, when it seems she was called "my sister
Katherine Shelton" in the will of Robert Shelton of London; her son
Roger Townshend was born circa 1544 (which gives us a marriage range
for her Townshend marriage). Townshend died in 1551, and sometime
thereafter she married Peter Sainthill as his *first wife*.
Sainthill's son and heir, by his *second* marriage was born in 1561,
so Katherine must have been dead by then - ie she was dead by the time
that her step-father Sir Humphrey Brown wrote his will. Brown
evidently had provided for her, probably at the time of her marriage
to Townshend, which is not surprising if we conclude that she was the
only daughter of his second wife, Elizabeth, who was herself an
heiress (of her brother William Rawlyns).

It looks like we have a few ODNB corrections, and one for Burke's, and
(sorry, Leo) something for Genealogics too.

Cheers (and thanks again to Adrian and Will Johnson for their help)

Michael Andrews-Reading

[John Brandon]

Thanks for that I'll take a look when I get back to my office.
We're having cats and dogs and other things coming down on the roof today,
so I'm home with a few buckets and a new tarp....

Yikes, I know how deeply un-fun that can be from my own experience a
few months back. Of course, in my case, the problem was compounded by
a broken window that occurred when the high winds slammed a tree
branch a little too far in the wrong direction.

[Gjest]

Evidently there are two more tiny bits on Sir Horatio. He was a knight from
Genoa, a financiar, and had a brother named Fabrizio who was at one time
being held on some kind of charge of being a heretic or something.

Horatio evidently had a few critics:

_http://books.google.com/books?id=TBaSW91syogC&pg=PA417&lpg=PA417&dq=%22horati
o+pallavicino%22&source=web&ots=2K9MMjNCtY&sig=TZMD4YkGRTMF-B3Bcmrb9o5YVO4_
(http://books.google.com/books?id=TBaSW9 ... =PA417&dq="horatio+pa
llavicino"&source=web&ots=2K9MMjNCtY&sig=TZMD4YkGRTMF-B3Bcmrb9o5YVO4)

Here lies Horatio Palavecene,
Who robb'd the Pope to lend to the Queene;
He was a thief. A Thief! thou liest;
For whie? He robb'd but Antichrist.
Hym death wyth besome swept from Babram,
Into the bosom of ould Abraham;
But then came Hercules with his club,
And struck him down to Belzebub.


Will Johnson





**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/n ... 3000000025
48)

[Gjest]

R.F. Tapsell, in his Monarchs, Rulers, Dynasties and Kingdoms of the World,
Thames and Hudson 1983 -
speaks of the MINOR MUSLIM KINGDOMS of Spain; amongst them the Abbadid
Dynasty of Seville, Banu Yahya Dynasty of Niebal AND THE 'Zirid dynasty of
Granada, 1012-1090, followed under a different heading SPAIN, Nasrid Kings of
Granada, 1230-1492.

This would seem to imply that the second Muslim rulers of Granada were
somewhat more important and were ranked as monarchs, the first were ranked as
Amirs/Emirs = chieftains/leaders!

over to you Leo

rgds

Pg

[Gjest]

On Jan 25, 1:48 am, [email protected] wrote:

Okay, I now see From what I wrote earlier and MA-R post (crossed in  e-space)
it is the Richard Townsend marriage to Katherine Browne which is  wrong.  
This is also wrong in Burke's (1938 ed p 2431)   "Richard [Townsend] of
Brampton m Catherine, dau and coheir of Sir Humphrey  Brown, Knt. of Ridley
Hall in Terling, Essex, one of the Justices of the Court  of Common Pleas, and
d. 1544 (will proved 12 Feb. 1544), having by her (who m.  2ndly, Sir William
Roper)"

I have been trying to confirm the actual death-date of Richard
Townshend. given above as 1544 and elsewhere as 1551.

In searching, I came across this PROCAT document which confirms
Katherine Shelton's marriages to Townshend and then Peter Sainthill:

C 1/1270/25-26

Peter SENTHIELL and Katherine his wife, late the wife of Richard
Townshend, esquire, v. Jerome SHELTON of London, brother of the said
Katherine: Failure to save the said Katherine harmless against a
former lessee of the manor of Akenham and the advowsons of the
churches of Akenham, Claydon, and Hemingstone, etc, Suffolk (dated
1544-1551)

Nice!

There are two PCC probate references that seem to relate to Richard
but are rather late in date:

Sentence of Richard Townesend of Brampton, Norfolk: 6 November 1554

Will of Richard Townsende or Townesende of Brampton, Norfolk: 12
February 1555

It would therefore seem that Richard Townshend was dead by 1551 at the
latest, and that by the same year his widow (nee Katherine Shelton)
had remarried to Peter Sainthill.

MA-R

[Gjest]

In a message dated 1/24/2008 4:20:29 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

According to the ODNB article for their son, Roger Townshend
(c1544-1590), Richard was dead by 1551, when Roger was heir to his
great-grandmother.


-------------------
I'd like to see that if you mean the new article.
Thanks
Will



**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/n ... 3000000025
48)

[Gjest]

On Jan 25, 11:25 am, [email protected] wrote:

In a message dated 1/24/2008 4:20:29 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,  

[email protected] writes:

According to the ODNB article for their son, Roger  Townshend
(c1544-1590), Richard was dead by 1551, when Roger was heir to  his
great-grandmother.

-------------------
I'd like to see that if you mean the new article.

Hi Will - I've emailed this to you. I should have typed "great-
grandfather" in quoting ODNB.

MA-R

[Peter Stewart]

"Peter Stewart" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

"wjhonson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Thanks for that Peter.

My dates on Louis, Langrave of Thuringia and his wife Elizabeth "The
Saint" of Hungary come from

Heraldry of the Royal Families of Europe, Table 89
Jiri Louda and Michael Maclagan. Clarkson N Potter, New York 1981

Where they say Elizabeth was b 1207 and d 1231, while Louis was b 1200
and d 1227

My dates must have come from Isenburg's ES or maybe from Schwennicke's
first go at the family - in his latest revision, ES neue Folge Band I.1
(1998), Tafel 145, the following information is given:

Ludwig IV was born on 28 October 1200 and died at Otranto on 11 September
1227. In 1221 he married Elisabeth of Hungary who was born in 1207 and
died at Marburg 16/17 November 1231. Their son Hermann was born at
Kreuzburg on 28 March 1222 and died there on 3 January 1241 - i.e. nearly
three months before his 19th birthday.

These dates are taken from a contemporary source - a 13th-century section of
the chronicle of Reinhardsbrunn, where Ludwig and Elisabeth were buried,
places their marriage in 1221 (this is not an original passage but is
confirmed by other sources), and the birth of Hermann on 28 March 1222.

Peter Stewart

[Gjest]

On Jan 25, 1:48 am, [email protected] wrote:

Okay, I now see From what I wrote earlier and MA-R post (crossed in  e-space)
it is the Richard Townsend marriage to Katherine Browne which is  wrong.  
This is also wrong in Burke's (1938 ed p 2431 Townsend) "Richard [Townsend] of
Brampton m Catherine, dau and coheir of Sir Humphrey  Brown, Knt. of Ridley
Hall in Terling, Essex, one of the Justices of the Court  of Common Pleas, and
d. 1544 (will proved 12 Feb. 1544), having by her (who m.  2ndly, Sir William
Roper)"

Here's a list of sources which appear to incorrectly conflate the step-
sisters Katherine Sainthill/Townshend nee Shelton and Katherine Roper
nee Brown:

1. ODNB, sub Roger Townshend, which states his mother was Katherine,
daughter of Humphrey Brown

2. Burke's Peerage, sub Townshend (courtesy of Adrian)

3. Visitation of Essex, 1612, p 166, sub Brown

4. Visitations of Norfolk, p 291, sub Townshend

5. Visitation of Devon, 1564, p 187, sub Sainthill

6. Visitation of Devon, 1620, p 249, sub Sainthill

7. Collins's Peerage, 1812, sub Townshend

[Gjest]

On Jan 25, 1:48 am, [email protected] wrote:

Okay, I now see From what I wrote earlier and MA-R post (crossed in  e-space)
it is the Richard Townsend marriage to Katherine Browne which is  wrong.  
This is also wrong in Burke's (1938 ed p 2431 Townsend) "Richard [Townsend] of
Brampton m Catherine, dau and coheir of Sir Humphrey  Brown, Knt. of Ridley
Hall in Terling, Essex, one of the Justices of the Court  of Common Pleas, and
d. 1544 (will proved 12 Feb. 1544), having by her (who m.  2ndly, Sir William
Roper)"

Here's a list of sources which appear to incorrectly conflate the step-
sisters Katherine Sainthill/Townshend nee Shelton and Katherine Roper
nee Brown:

1. ODNB, sub Roger Townshend, which states his mother was Katherine,
daughter of Humphrey Brown

2. Burke's Peerage, sub Townshend (courtesy of Adrian)

3. Visitation of Essex, 1612, p 166, sub Brown

4. Visitations of Norfolk, p 291, sub Townshend

5. Visitation of Devon, 1564, p 187, sub Sainthill

6. Visitation of Devon, 1620, p 249, sub Sainthill

7. Collins's Peerage, 1812, sub Townshend

[Gjest]

On Jan 25, 1:48 am, [email protected] wrote:

Okay, I now see From what I wrote earlier and MA-R post (crossed in  e-space)
it is the Richard Townsend marriage to Katherine Browne which is  wrong.  
This is also wrong in Burke's (1938 ed p 2431 Townsend) "Richard [Townsend] of
Brampton m Catherine, dau and coheir of Sir Humphrey  Brown, Knt. of Ridley
Hall in Terling, Essex, one of the Justices of the Court  of Common Pleas, and
d. 1544 (will proved 12 Feb. 1544), having by her (who m.  2ndly, Sir William
Roper)"

Here's a list of sources which appear to incorrectly conflate the step-
sisters Katherine Sainthill/Townshend nee Shelton and Katherine Roper
nee Brown:

1. ODNB, sub Roger Townshend, which states his mother was Katherine,
daughter of Humphrey Brown

2. Burke's Peerage, sub Townshend (courtesy of Adrian)

3. Visitation of Essex, 1612, p 166, sub Brown

4. Visitations of Norfolk, p 291, sub Townshend

5. Visitation of Devon, 1564, p 187, sub Sainthill

6. Visitation of Devon, 1620, p 249, sub Sainthill

7. Collins's Peerage, 1812, sub Townshend

[Gjest]

On Jan 25, 1:48 am, [email protected] wrote:

Okay, I now see From what I wrote earlier and MA-R post (crossed in  e-space)
it is the Richard Townsend marriage to Katherine Browne which is  wrong.  
This is also wrong in Burke's (1938 ed p 2431 Townsend) "Richard [Townsend] of
Brampton m Catherine, dau and coheir of Sir Humphrey  Brown, Knt. of Ridley
Hall in Terling, Essex, one of the Justices of the Court  of Common Pleas, and
d. 1544 (will proved 12 Feb. 1544), having by her (who m.  2ndly, Sir William
Roper)"

Here's a list of sources which appear to incorrectly conflate the step-
sisters Katherine Sainthill/Townshend nee Shelton and Katherine Roper
nee Brown:

1. ODNB, sub Roger Townshend, which states his mother was Katherine,
daughter of Humphrey Brown

2. Burke's Peerage, sub Townshend (courtesy of Adrian)

3. Visitation of Essex, 1612, p 166, sub Brown

4. Visitations of Norfolk, p 291, sub Townshend

5. Visitation of Devon, 1564, p 187, sub Sainthill

6. Visitation of Devon, 1620, p 249, sub Sainthill

7. Collins's Peerage, 1812, sub Townshend

[Gjest]

In a message dated 1/24/2008 7:00:28 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

4. Constance Vere, dead by 1515, married 1499 John Parr, died 1504.
No issue.

The Topographer and Genealogist, vol III, J.G. Nichols, London, 1858,
p 354 states that John Parr, third son of Sir William Parr, KG, and
uncle of Queen Katherine Parr, married Constance Vere, daughter of Sir
Henry Vere of Addington, on 15 September 1499, but died 8 September
1504 without issue. Presumably his wife was dead without issue by
1515, as she is not named in the PROCAT suit cited above.

(thanks to Will Johnson for alerting me to this)


---------------------------
Thanks for the citation. I'm pretty sure my own source wasn't the
Topographer, so there must be another source out there. If the rain lets up tomorrow
I can get to my notes and see what.

Will Johnson



**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/n ... 3000000025
48)

[Gjest]

In a message dated 1/24/2008 7:43:20 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

I would like to use the "most correct" term. If Encyclopedia Brittanica AND
Wikipedia have it wrong, should I follow their example? >>


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------
Leo you're an objectivist.
"Most Correct" ?

You have to set the new convention for the rest of us to follow.
By the way, your database is not exposed page-by-page to Google is it?
That is, Google doesn't index your site by all the individual pages.

Will Johnson



**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/n ... 3000000025
48)

[John H]

Adrian,
taking a portion below from Humfrey Browne's will you posted,
namely
"Also where I / did entayle the mannor of Mannden otherwise called
Battellshalle in the saide countie of / essex "

Do you, or anyone else on list, know how the Browne family got hold of the
Manor of Manuden or Battels Hall.

I am doing the Battell/Battaille/Battely family and they appear to have
held that manor,
apparently being a grant of 1086 by William I to Humphrey Bataille, of which
I would like
confirmation etc.

I have Shelton surname in database but not a Robert .

Richard Shelton around theperiod of time, of which you are discussing with
Humphrey Browne's will.
Are you able to assist in this matter at all
regards
John H
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

Michael,

I was going to reply to your first two messages, but you have now covered
much of what I was going to write (except I had not seen the possible
marriage
of Katherine to Peter Sainthill, so I had no problem with her). Instead
I
give my transcription of Sir Humphrey's Will:

Summary of Will
Humfrey Browne (-Will 12 Nov 1562 pr 14 Jan 1562/3 request to be bur St
Martin's the Orgar, Candlewick Str., London) Justice of Common Pleas,
Westminster; My wife Agnes; Sons: George Browne (s&h) Daughters: Mary
Browne; Christain
Browne (to have pastures in Epping); Katherine Browne; probably all
unmarried
as not to marry without permission; Brother-in-law: Sir Robert
Throckmorton
knt; Nephew: Anthony Browne, Justice of Common Pleas, Westminster.
Others:
Richard Townshen and wife Katherine [Humphry Browne' daughter m a Richard
Townshend, but he had died 1544?] Property: Cow Lane, St Sepulchre,
London; Manor
of Cryfield, Gloucs; rectory of Manden or Manndon als Battellshall,
Essex;
Manor of Perryball [ac: ?= Perivale below] als Little Grindford,
Middlesex

In the name of god amen I S^r^ Humfrey / Browne knighte one of the Queens
majestes Justies of her common pleas at Westm' being of / whole mynde and
perfect memory praise be to god maketh thys my testament and laste will /
concerning my gooddes and landes hereafter declared the xij th daye of
November in
the fourth / yere of the Raigne of o^r^ sorevaigne Ladie Elizabeth by the
grace
of god of England ffrance and / Irelande Quene deffender of the faith etc,
in maner and forme followinge fforst I bequeath / my soule to almightie
god my
boddie to be buried within the parish church of S^t^ Martins the / Orgars
in
the cittie of London if I departe this presant life within tenne miles of
the
same / cittie and that in noe sumptuns mannor but after a charitable
fasshon
and the greatest case / therin to be donne for me to be bestowed and
given
to the poore and nedie people also I will that / my debts be paid which I
owe
and restitu'con be made to all men to whome I have donne wronge / in
tymes
past yf it be well proved and I will that my plate and and other my
movable
goods / content'aton therof ffurther I give to the saide Agnes my wief
all my
household stuf and hangings / in my little chamber within my mannor house
adjoying to cowlane in the parish of Saint / Sepulkers in London in the
Which
chamber my brother in lawe S^r^ Robert Throckmorton / knight is
accustomed to lye
in and called by the name of his chamber with all manner thanplemete /
therein also I give to my saide wief my scarlet bed commonly called my
feelde bedd
wholy withall / the bedde bedsteed couletts curtens and all other things
to
the same belonging or any partetherof / Also I give to my said Wief all
suche
goods and cattells that she had before the tyme I married / her that wise
be
unsoulde and ungiven alvine and also all the proffetts and encreace of
the
said // goods and cattalles ever sithens the tyme of the saide mariage
Also I
will and give to my saide / wief all the rings chaynes of golde,
villements
of golde Juells stones and golde pinyhes woorkes / etc whatsoever whiche
she
now hath and had before the tyme I married her ffurther I give to my / my
daughter xp'ian my lease of cowleer being certayne pastures within the
parrish of
Eppinge / in the countie of essex whereof Thomas Lycynes of Epping ys now
temiante ymmediatly after / my decease And from that tyme she shall have
and
take the proffitts of the same Also I will / and give to every of my
housholde
sr'nnts whiche take wage one quarter of a yeres wages next / after my
decease
and meate and drinke for half a yere next following my decease yf they
will
/ take yt and to every of the same my ser'nnts then in wage xx^s^ in
money.
Now concerning / my will of my landes herafter following ffirst I will
that
if George Browne my sonne and heire / apparante dye withoute issue of his
boddie laufully begotten that then immiadiatly after his / decease my
Manor of
Cryfeld with thappt'enncs in the countie of Gloucter and my rectorie / of
Manden with thapp^r^te'nich in this countie of essex shall wholy remayne
to Mary
Browne / xp'ian Browne, and kathren Browne my daughter and to theire
heires
for ever Also where I / did entayle the mannor of Mannden otherwise
called
Battellshalle in the saide countie of / essex and the mannor of perryball
othewise called littell Grindford in the countie of / Midd' unto Richarde
Towneshend
and to Kathyeren his wief and to theires of the boddie of the / same
kathcren lawfully begotten I will that yf thissue of the same Katheren of
her boddie
lawfully / begotten dye withoute issue of their boddies lawfully
begotten,
that then the same Manners / with theire appetenncs shall then ymmediatly
remayne to the said Mary xp'ian and katheryn / Browne my daughters and to
theire
heirs for ev' ffurthermore I ^will and^ give to the p'son and church
wardens / of the parish of St Martins the Orgars abovesaide and to theire
successors all those mysay) / messuage or tennements situate and being in
Cowlane in
the parish of St Sepulkers about / standing and being on thest syde of my
greate gate of my saide man'con house to thintent that / they and every
of them
and their successors shall give and dispose the Rents and proffitts of /
the
same tennements in manner and forme following that is to saye that they
and
every of / them shall yearley give and dispose every frydaye weekely from
the
first daye of December / till the last daye of March then next following
ij
horselods of charcoles amongst the / poore and nedest persons of the same
theire parrish another overplus of the said Rente and oth^r^ / proffitts
to be
given amongst the poore people of theire saide parrish yearly from tyme
to tyme
/ Provided alwayes that yf my said daughters or any of them doe marry
withoute the assente / and consente of Thomas Husse and Gilbert Husse
gentlemen my
bretheren in Law Robert / Husse and John Husse of Greys Inne in the
suburbs of
London or of the moste parte of / them that then yf the same my daughters
or
any of them shall otherwise doe withoute theire / assents shall inherret
noe
parcell of my saide lands, But that the same shall then remayne to /
thother
of my saide daughters that shall marry by thassents aforsaide And of this
my
present / testamente and laste will I ordayne and make Agnus my said wief
my
sole exectrix to whome / I bequeathe and give the residue of my goods my
debts funeralls legacy and childrens por'cons / dyscharged And further doe
hartely desire and praye my nephew Anthony Browne one of ye / Queens
majestes
inlawe of her common pleas at Westm' that yt will please hym to be my /
Overseer
of this my last will and testamente and also to ayde and helpe my saide
wif
and my / younge children that they have noe wrongs And for his paynes
that he
shall take therein I give / to hym all my bookes of the lawe In witnes
whereof
to this my present testamente and last will / I have putto my hande and
seale in the presence of these persons following whose names be /
hereunder
subscribed the daye and yere ^first^ above written Thomas Tressham John
Raly
clarke Will' / Elliot Robert Throckmorton Humfrey Browne Thomas Baggen
Kay Bales
Roger Fairson /
Probatum ... Agnes Browne relicte et executrix... /

Indexed as Humphrey Browne, (Sir) one of the Queen's Majesty's Justice of
Her Common Pleas at Westminster; 14 January 1563; PROB 11/46

Regards,
Adrian

[Leo van de Pas]

Dear Will,

"Most Correct" as close to near perfect? No, I prefer in the _genealogical_
aspects of my website to have the names of people and places as they were
known by them or in those countries.

I started with the computerising in 1990, and a lot was entered from an
English language angle. Gradually I am trying to clean those up. I do not
think you will find a Prague or Prag amongst the births and deaths, marriage
probably a few.

I am trying to eliminate German Count/Countesses and turn them into
Graf/Grafin and so on.

Now in the biographical entries I do not mind Count, Florence, Brunswick,
Bavaria and so on.

At the moment I am arguing with myself about the aspects of how far to go
with the German families titles? I think I will keep the kings as king but
lower titles should be in German

No Google has not touched my website and I think it should stay that way.

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia


----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 2:59 PM
Subject: Re: Granada - king or Emir ?

In a message dated 1/24/2008 7:43:20 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

I would like to use the "most correct" term. If Encyclopedia Brittanica
AND
Wikipedia have it wrong, should I follow their example?


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------
Leo you're an objectivist.
"Most Correct" ?

You have to set the new convention for the rest of us to follow.
By the way, your database is not exposed page-by-page to Google is it?
That is, Google doesn't index your site by all the individual pages.

Will Johnson



**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/n ... 3000000025
48)

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[D. Spencer Hines]

"Leo van de Pas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

Hessen Darmstadt, a term replaced before the times of Victoria... [sic]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Utter Balderdash & Nonsense from the drunken Leo.

Prince Philip's SISTER, previously mentioned by the drunken Leo, was named
Cecilie ---- Cecilie Prinzessin v. Griechenland Prinsesse af Danmark. She
died in 1937.

Cecilie married Georg Donatus Wilhelm Nikolaus Eduard Heinrich Karl
Erbgrossherzog v. Hessen und bei Rhein, whose Great-Grandfather reportedly
retained the title Karl Wilhelm Ludwig Prinz v. HESSEN-DARMSTADT.

Karl Wilhelm Ludwig Prinz v. HESSEN-DARMSTADT was born in 1809 and died in
1877, 40 YEARS into the Reign of QUEEN VICTORIA, who was born in 1819.

His elder brother was Ludwig III Grossherzog v. Hessen und bei Rhein.

Both Cecilie and her husband Georg Donatus were members of the Nazi Party
[NSDAP].

Cecilie and Georg Donatus came to a tragic end in 1937.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

[Douglas Richardson]

Warning: This message has been crossposted. It may cause brain
failure.

Dear Newsgroup ~

The Encyclopedia Britannica reference cited below specifically states
that Hermann of Thuringia was "nominally the landgrave" of Thuringia,
and that "he was declared of age in 1237."

It likewise correctly indicates that Hermann was contracted to marry
the Emperor's unnamed daughter in 1238 (which I have shown from a
contemporary record), and that he repudiated her c.1239 (again
confirmed by a contemporary record). Hermann subsequently married
another woman, Helena, and died without issue in 1241 (again proven by
a contemporary record).

http://books.google.com/books?id=2SN6-c ... _-tE67Njcg

Was Hermann declared of age in 1237? The Encyclopedia Britannica
account cited above avers that he was. The only point on which I
would disagree with the account in Encyclopedia Brittanica is that
Hermann's first contracted wife, the Emperor's daughter, is the same
person as Margaretha, the Emperor's daughter by his fourth wife,
Isabel of England. Inasmuch as Margaretha was an infant just born in
1237, it would be highly unlikely for her to be contracted to marry
someone "declared of age" in that very year. The contract for Hermann
to marry the Emperor's daughter does not give the name of Emperor's
daughter (I've already posted a reference to this document). Inasmuch
as the Emperor had an older daughter, Anna, born of this third
marriage to Blanche (or Bianca), I assume that Anna was the Emperor's
daughter that was contracted to marry Hermann of Thuringia, not
Margaretha.

Hopefully someone can find and post the document or reference which
proves that Hermann of Thuringia was "declared of age" in 1237.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[D. Spencer Hines]

Princess Cecilie of Greece and Denmark

Cecilie, Prince Philip's sister, led a short but very interesting life:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Cecilie_of_Greece_and_Denmark>
--------------------------------------------

Cecilie was the third child and daughter of Prince Andrew of Greece and
Denmark and Princess Alice of Battenberg. She was born on 22 June 1911 at
the summer estate of the Greek Royal Family at Tatoi, fifteen kilometres
north of Athens. Although her given name was indeed Cecilie, she was known
to her family as Cécile.

Cecilie was baptised at Tatoi on 2 July 1911. Her godparents were King
George V of the United Kingdom, Grand Duke Ernst Louis of Hesse, Prince
Nicholas of Greece, and Duchess Vera of Württemberg.

Through her father Cecilie was a grandchild of King George I of Greece and
his wife Grand Duchess Olga Konstantinova of Russia (a granddaughter of Tsar
Nicholas I of Russia). Through her mother she was a great-granddaughter of
Princess Alice of the United Kingdom (daughter of Queen Victoria of the
United Kingdom and her husband Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha).

Cecilie had three sisters: Margarita (wife of Prince Gottfried of
Hohenlohe-Langenburg), Theodora (wife of Berthold, Margrave of Baden), and
Sophie (wife firstly of Prince Christoph of Hesse and secondly of Prince
Georg Wilhelm of Hanover). Her brother Philip, later Duke of Edinburgh, is
the husband of Queen Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom.

In 1922 Cecilie and her sisters were bridesmaids at the wedding of their
uncle Lord Louis Mountbatten (later Earl Mountbatten of Burma) to Edwina
Ashley....
-------------------------

DSH

[Peter Stewart]

"Douglas Richardson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:7c0f1ae7-ec6c-4d46-b563-880516ef01d0@c23g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...

Warning: This message has been crossposted. It may cause brain
failure.

It resulted from brain failure....the pig-headed crosspostings have been
removed.

Dear Newsgroup ~

The Encyclopedia Britannica reference cited below specifically states
that Hermann of Thuringia was "nominally the landgrave" of Thuringia,
and that "he was declared of age in 1237."

So what? We know that he was born in 1222, and consequently turned 15 in
1237, so there is nothing unusual in this.

However, you claimed that he "was an adult in 1237", whereas 15 is only just
into adolescence by medieval reckoning. Are you now trying to offer
Encyclopaedia (note the spelling) Britannica as some kind of support for
your misinforming the newsgroup?

It likewise correctly indicates that Hermann was contracted to marry
the Emperor's unnamed daughter in 1238 (which I have shown from a
contemporary record), and that he repudiated her c.1239 (again
confirmed by a contemporary record). Hermann subsequently married
another woman, Helena, and died without issue in 1241 (again proven by
a contemporary record).

http://books.google.com/books?id=2SN6-c ... _-tE67Njcg

Was Hermann declared of age in 1237? The Encyclopedia Britannica
account cited above avers that he was. The only point on which I
would disagree with the account in Encyclopedia Brittanica is that
Hermann's first contracted wife, the Emperor's daughter, is the same
person as Margaretha, the Emperor's daughter by his fourth wife,
Isabel of England. Inasmuch as Margaretha was an infant just born in
1237, it would be highly unlikely for her to be contracted to marry
someone "declared of age" in that very year. The contract for Hermann
to marry the Emperor's daughter does not give the name of Emperor's
daughter (I've already posted a reference to this document). Inasmuch
as the Emperor had an older daughter, Anna, born of this third
marriage to Blanche (or Bianca), I assume that Anna was the Emperor's
daughter that was contracted to marry Hermann of Thuringia, not
Margaretha.

For the second time, Frederick II did NOT have a daughter named Anna who
could be betrothed to Hermann. The baptismal name of his daughter by Bianca
Lancia was Constance: she took the name Anna in 1244, over three years after
Hermann's death, when she married Ioannes Batatzes.

Peter Stewart

[Hovite]

On Jan 25, 4:16 am, "Leo van de Pas" <[email protected]> wrote:

I am trying to eliminate German Count/Countesses and turn them into
Graf/Grafin and so on.

You should stick with what your sources say and not try to correct
them, otherwise you risk creating new errors.

Taking count as an example, it is not an English title, but is used in
English to translate various different foreign titles, such as, in
German, both Graf and Altgraf. Therefore you cannot determine the
German original merely by looking at the English translation.

Another problem is that you are guessing what language the man spoke.
Germany has recently lost territory in the west to France and in the
east to Poland. Would you use the word Graf for an Alsatian or
Silesian count?

Furthermore, the original patents were quite possibly in Latin. The
title actually conferred might be comes, and Graf could be just a
modern German translation.

[Gjest]

On Jan 25, 5:33 pm, Douglas Richardson <[email protected]> wrote:

Warning: This message has been crossposted.  It may cause brain
failure.

Indeed - we have conclusive proof that the two are linked.

MA-R

[[email protected]]

Can John Ravilious resolve the pedigree of the 17th-Great Grandmother
of the future King of England,
HRH Charles?


On Jan 23, 12:20 pm, Francisco Tavares de Almeida
<[email protected]> wrote:

On 21 Jan, 23:12, "[email protected]"

[email protected]> wrote:

...

     As a result of his marriage, Robert Stewart, 1st Duke of Albany
was styled as Earl of Menteith on 28 February 1361.3,2 He was created
1st Earl of Fife [Scotland] on 30 March 1371.
Could you please confirm:
a) Styled earl of Menteith on 28 February 1361
The papal dispensation of 9 September 1361 was granted after the
marriage?

b) Created 1st Earl of Fife
Didn't Isabel, countess of Fife resigned the earldom to him?

Regards
Francisco

HRH Charles 17-th Great Grandmother is in dispute:

see: http://fabpedigree.com/s009/f010548.htm

The PEDIGREE of
Margery (Margaret Marcellina) STEWART

aka Marjory (Lady) of Albany
Born: ? Died: by 1432




HRH Charles's 17-Great Grandmother. PM Churchill's 15-Great
Grandmother. Lady Diana's 16-Great Grandmother. HRH Albert
II's 17-Great Grandmother. F. D. Roosevelt Jr.'s 16-Great
Grandmother. Poss. my 16-Great Grandmother.
Husband/Partner: Duncan (Sir; of Lochaw; 1st Lord) CAMPBELL
Child: Archibald Celestin (Master) CAMPBELL
_______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ____ ____ ___
/ -- Walter (Sir) STEWART (STEWARD) + ==&=> [ 225 ,whaGC,rvT,&]
/ -- Robert II `the Steward' STEWART (1316 - 1390)
/ \ -- Marjorie (Marjory Mary; de) BRUCE + ==&=> [ 229 ,S,TX,&]
/ -- Robert STEWART (Earl of FIFE) (1339 - 1420)
| \ / -- Adam (Sir) MURE (MORE) + ==&=> [ 226 ,wHaG,Rv,&]
| \ -- Elizabeth (of ROWALLAN) MURE (1320? - by 1355)
| \ -- Joanna (Janet) DANZIELSTOUR + ====> [ 1]
| | or: Joan CUNNINGHAM
/ | OR: poss. Janet MURE of Fokeltie (POLKELLY) + ==&=>
[ 222 ,hg,BD,&]
- Margery (Margaret Marcellina) STEWART
\ / -- Edward KEITH + ==&=> [ 224 ,wh,vBD,&]
| | | or: poss. Robert (Edward's brother)
| | | OR: William KEITH + ==&=> [ 229 ,WH,RvT,&]
| / | or: Robert (William's father)
| / -- William (Sir; de) KEITH
| / \ -- poss. Isabella (Isobella; de) SYNTON + ====> [ 1]
\ -- Muriella (Marietta) de KEITH (1360? - 1449)
\ | or: prob. Mary GRAHAM, q.v.
| / -- John (Sir; of TOUCHFRASER) FRASER + ==&=> [ 229 ,WH,RvTX,&]
| / | OR: John (Lord of ABOYNE) FRASER + ==&=> [ 226 ,HG,Rv,&]
\ -- Margaret (of Touchfraser) FRASER (1340? - 1407?)
\ -- Mary

Her Great Grandchildren: Helen (Lady; of ARGYLL)
CAMPBELL ; Isabel (Lady) CAMPBELL ; Archibald CAMPBELL ;
Elizabeth CAMPBELL ; Margaret (Marion) (of Argyll) CAMPBELL

___________________________________________

VERSUS:

see: http://fabpedigree.com/s019/f021096.htm

he PEDIGREE of
Muriella (Marietta) de KEITH

(2nd wife)
Born: abt. 1360 Died: 1449


HRH Charles's 19-Great Grandmother. PM Churchill's 16-Great
Grandmother. Poss. Geo Washington's 12-Great Aunt. Lady
Diana's 17-Great Grandmother. HRH Albert II's 18-Great
Grandmother. Gen. Pierpont Hamilton's 16-Great
Grandmother. Poss. my 17-Great Grandmother.
Husband/Partner: Robert STEWART (Earl of FIFE)
Children: Elizabeth STEWART ; John COMYN (3rd Earl of
BUCHAN) STEWART
Possible Child: Margery (Margaret Marcellina) STEWART
Alternative Mother of Possible Child: prob. Mary GRAHAM, q.v.
______ ______ ______ ______ _____ _____ _____ _____ ____ ___ ___
/ -- Hervens (Marischal) de KEITH + ====> [ 5]
/ -- John (Sir) de KEITH (KETH) (1212? - by 1270)
/ -- William (Sir; de) KEITH (1236? - by 1293)
/ \ -- Margaret COMYN (CUMYN) + ==&=> [ 222 ,hg,vBD,&]
/ -- Edward KEITH (? - by 1350)
| \ | or: poss. Robert (Edward's brother)
| | | OR: William KEITH + ==&=> [ 229 ,WH,RvT,&]
| | | or: Robert (William's father)
/ \ -- poss. Barbara (de) SETON + ==&=> [ 217 ,WH,&]
/ -- William (Sir; de) KEITH
| \ / -- Alexander de SYNTON
/ \ -- poss. Isabella (Isobella; de) SYNTON
- Muriella (Marietta) de KEITH
\ / -- Alexander (Sir) FRASER + ==&=> [ 225 ,HG,Rv,&]
| / -- John (Sir; of TOUCHFRASER) FRASER (1317? - ?)
| | \ | OR: John (Lord of ABOYNE) FRASER + ==&=> [ 226 ,HG,Rv,&]
| / \ -- Mary (Marjory) BRUCE + ==&=> [ 228 ,WH,RvTX,&]
\ -- Margaret (of Touchfraser) FRASER (1340? - 1407?)
\ -- Mary

Her (poss.) Great Grandchildren: Malcolm (of Monycabon)
FLEMING ; Beatrice FLEMING ; John (Master) SETON ; Colin
(2nd Lord) CAMPBELL

_________

aaron

[Gjest]

In a message dated 25/01/2008 02:15:32 GMT Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

According to the ODNB biography of Sir Anthony Brown, sometime Chief

Justice of the Common Pleas, he was born in 1509, the son of Sir
Wistan Brown by Elizabeth Mordaunt.

Elizabeth Mordaunt is said to have been the daughter of William
Mordaunt of Turvey, Beds; her brother, Sir John Mordaunt (died 1504)
also has a biography in ODNB, since he was Speaker of the House of
Commons.

The Brown family entry in the Vistitations of Essex (which we already
know is faulty) states that Sir Anthony had an elder brother, John
Brown, who married Audrey Vere, one of the daughters and coheirs of
Henry Vere of Addington. John and Audrey are said to be the parents
of George Brown.

Yet ODNB states that George Brown was the brother, not the nephew of
Sir Anthony.

I suspect that ODNB is right in saying this, and that Anthony was not
the brother but the son of John Brown and Audrey Vere, and thus the
grandson of Sir Wistan Brown and Elizabeth Mordaunt. Here's why:

Audrey Vere's two sisters married relations of the Browns; looking at
their families provides some clues as to likely dates for Audrey.

Her elder sister Elizabeth Vere married in 1499 John Mordaunt (born
1480-5 per ODNB), the son of Sir John Mordaunt (d 1504). He was
afterwards created 1st Baron Mordaunt. Their son and heir was born in
1508.

Her younger sister Anne married Sir Humphrey Brown, brother of Sir
Wistan Brown. Sir Humphrey was admitted to the bar in the 1490s and
was thus apparently born in the 1470s. Their son George was married,
admittedly as a minor, by 1518.

It seems that Audrey was born sometime before 1500, which is more
likely to be the approximate date for her marriage to John Brown.
This dating would fit with Sir Anthony being their son, and thus the
brother of George (as ODNB states).

If this is the case, then two first-cousins, grandsons of William
Mordaunt of Turvey, married two of Henry Vere's daughters, and the
third married the uncle of one of these cousins.

MA-R

There are at least two places in VCH of Essex which state that Sir Antony's
great-nephew was Wistan Browne quoting 103 P.R.O., C 142/150, no. 137,
which, if correct, favours the Visitation of Essex construction. See, for example,
The manor of South Weald at
_http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=63843&strquery=browne_
(http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... ery=browne) .
I have this Wistan (-1580) as son of George (1510-1558) and grandson of John
Browne and gr-grandson of Winstan Browne (sheriff of Essex in 1516/17)
In Morant's Essex, Morant argues that Sir Anthony was much younger than his
brother John
"Although Antony is the first named son in page 118, it was his brother John
who was of "Abbess-Roding" previously held by their father, suggesting John
was the eldest brother. It would also seem that John's son was born in
1510/1 about the same year as Antony's birth, and thus Antony was very much younger
than his brother John, and I have assumed that Antony is the youngest son."
By the way I have Sir Humphrey Browne (-1562) father as Thomas Browne
(-1488), (or possibly the Robert as already noted by you) by Mary d of Thomas
Charlton. I suspect that this is the Sir Thomas Charlton who died 1465, another
Speaker of the HoC.
Regards,
Adrian

[Gjest]

In a message dated 25/01/2008 04:10:29 GMT Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

Adrian,

taking a portion below from Humfrey Browne's will you posted,
namely
"Also where I / did entayle the mannor of Mannden otherwise called
Battellshalle in the saide countie of / essex "

Do you, or anyone else on list, know how the Browne family got hold of the
Manor of Manuden or Battels Hall.

I am doing the Battell/Battaille/Battely family and they appear to have
held that manor,
apparently being a grant of 1086 by William I to Humphrey Bataille, of which
I would like
confirmation etc.

I have Shelton surname in database but not a Robert .

Richard Shelton around theperiod of time, of which you are discussing with
Humphrey Browne's will.
Are you able to assist in this matter at all
regards
John H

From the British History on Line there is the following grant

Essex.D. 800. Grant by Thomas Bassyngbourne of Bishops Hatfield co.
Hertford, esquire, to Thomas Kebeel, serjeant-at-law, John Cornewaleys, esquire, John
Broun, 'gentilman,' Reginald Pegge, and Robert Ellyngton, of the manor of
Manuden Hall, and of a tenement called 'Wodehall' in Ogeley, and of all his
lands and tenements &c. in Manuden, Ogeley, and Stansted; with letter of
attorney authorising Roger Useley and Thomas Pycher to deliver seisin. 28 May, 6
Henry VII. Signed.
From: 'Deeds: D.701 - D.800', A Descriptive Catalogue of Ancient Deeds:
Volume 3 (1900), pp. 488-499. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... ry=Manuden. Date accessed: 25 January 2008.

I'm not sure how this John Broun fits with the Brownes of this thread, in
fact the mention of Thomas Kebeel (Kebyll) suggests this John Broun is the son
of the William Browne who was mayor of London in 1513 and whose second
marriage was to Alice dau of Henry Kebyll and sister of a Thomas Kebyll. Perhaps
the two families were connected.

I would think that the Victorian County History of Essex would have more on
Manuden Hall. British History on line has some of these volumes, but I
can't see Manuden.

Regards
Adrian

[Gjest]

Yes - some modern 'social' historians try to sell their books with shock
tactics such as a distant uncle of mine Field Marshal Lord Ligonier, in his late
60s,who dallied with 14 year old girls in the 18th Century - these obviously
know nothing of the fact that the age of consent was raised to 16 in only the
last 120 years or so.

Pg

[Gjest]

What I believe this shows, is that the contract was writen, designed to
*prevent* the possibility that she would be given away in marriage-contract
before the age of 12 and then have to face the question of her repudiation of her
spouse once she attained the age where she could repudiate

I believe what they were trying to effect, was that such a situation should
not be put upon her.



**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/n ... 3000000025
48)

[Francisco Tavares de Alme]

On 25 Jan, 08:48, Hovite <[email protected]> wrote:

...........

Taking count as an example, it is not an English title, but is used in
English to translate various different foreign titles, such as, in
German, both Graf and Altgraf.

..............

Altgraf, just like Rheingraf is not a generic title. It means old
count but it is only used by the counts of Lower Salm as they were the
senior branch of the same original family; the junior branches, on the
Upper Salm, were Raugraf and Wildgraf (rough and wild).
With these 4 particular Graf, there are eight more generic Graf,
including 2 viscounts and one marchess (or margrave).

Best regards,
Francisco

[Gjest]

In a message dated 1/25/2008 11:03:45 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

the age of consent was raised to 16 in only the
last 120 years or so


-----------------
Age of consent varies by country. In the US it also does, or did, vary by
state.



**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/n ... 3000000025
48)

[Gjest]

In a message dated 1/25/2008 11:30:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

On Jan 22, 11:45 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <[email protected]> wrote:

Excellent!

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Deus Vult

Vires et Honor
---------------------------------------------

Once again Gary Boyd Roberts has assembled all recent royal descent
research, some yet unpublished, and produced an authoritative, up-to-date
compendium.

In the 2006 edition of The Royal Descents of 600 Immigrants he added
eighteen new immigrants to his previous 650. In this edition, he has added
twenty-eight more, so that with a few disproofs (Curwens/Corwins of
Massachusetts and New York, Byes of Pennsylvania, and Edwardses, one Evans
and Hugh Jones of Pennsylvania), this total is now 688.

With this enlarged compendium, plus the works of DOUGLAS RICHARDSON *** on
Magna Carta and Plantagenet ancestry, which add much biographical detail on
many medieval figures and cover over 200 of the 688 immigrants, royal
descent literature has reached a new level of comprehension and
reliability.

Genealogical Publishing Company is proud to offer the public these
benchmark
works that lead to an almost 800- year expansion (ca. 900-1700) of the
ancestry of many thousands of Americans.

http://www.genealogical.com/products/Th ... 0of%2060...

Just where can one get a complete list of these 688 individuals?
How many sets of siblings are among this group of 688?
What is the blood relationship of each to the other 687?

Might make a fun project to trace all their descendants down to the
present.. or near present.


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and
the body of the message
Dear Listers,
I have descents from Samuel Appleton ,
Philip Nelson , Joan (Price) Cleeves, Joseph Bolles, Frances (Deighton) Williams,
Percival Lowell, Peter Worden, James Cudworth (if that proves out), John
Whitney (if that proves out), Constant Southworth (if that proves out), Richard
Waters, Kenelm and John Winslow and Phebe (Leete) Parkhurst (should they
prove to have royal descents)

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA






**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/n ... 3000000025
48)

[Doug McDonald]

[email protected] wrote:

Just where can one get a complete list of these 688 individuals?

By finding the book, of course!

How many sets of siblings are among this group of 688?
What is the blood relationship of each to the other 687?

They are mostly descendants of one Arnulf, Bishop of Metz (but not all).

Doug McDonald

[[email protected]]

On Jan 25, 5:37 pm, [email protected] wrote:

In a message dated 1/25/2008 11:30:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  

[email protected] writes:

On Jan  22, 11:45 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <[email protected]> wrote:





 Excellent!

DSH

Lux et Veritas et  Libertas

Deus Vult

Vires et Honor
 ---------------------------------------------

Once again Gary  Boyd Roberts has assembled all recent royal descent
research, some yet  unpublished, and produced an authoritative, up-to-date
 compendium.

In the 2006 edition of The Royal Descents of 600  Immigrants he added
eighteen new immigrants to his previous 650.   In this edition, he has added
twenty-eight more, so that with a few  disproofs (Curwens/Corwins of
Massachusetts and New York, Byes of  Pennsylvania, and Edwardses, one Evans
and Hugh Jones of  Pennsylvania), this total is now 688.

With this enlarged  compendium, plus the works of DOUGLAS RICHARDSON *** on
Magna Carta  and Plantagenet ancestry, which add much biographical detail on
many  medieval figures and cover over 200 of the 688 immigrants, royal
 descent literature has reached a new level of comprehension and  
reliability.

Genealogical Publishing Company is proud to offer  the public these
benchmark
works that lead to an almost 800- year  expansion (ca. 900-1700) of the
ancestry of many thousands of  Americans.

 <http://www.genealogical.com/products/The%20Royal%20Descents%20of%2060...

Just  where can one get a complete list of these 688 individuals?
How many sets  of siblings are among this group of 688?
What is the blood relationship of  each to the other 687?

Might make a fun project to trace all their  descendants down to the
present.. or near  present.

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the  list, please send an email to
[email protected] with the word  'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and
the body of the  message
            Dear  Listers,
                                I  have descents from Samuel Appleton ,
Philip Nelson , Joan (Price) Cleeves,  Joseph Bolles, Frances (Deighton) Williams,
Percival Lowell, Peter Worden, James  Cudworth (if that proves out), John
Whitney (if that  proves out), Constant  Southworth (if that proves out), Richard
Waters, Kenelm and John Winslow and  Phebe (Leete) Parkhurst (should they
prove  to have royal descents)

             Sincerely,

                            James W Cummings

                            Dixmont, Maine USA

**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.    
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/n ... aolcmp0....
48)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks James

[John H]

Thanks Adrian,
Found a little bit more about Bataill family re Hatfield Broadoak re
Barrington & Leventhorpe Families.
going to the site you listed.
regards
John H

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

In a message dated 25/01/2008 04:10:29 GMT Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:


Adrian,
taking a portion below from Humfrey Browne's will you posted,
namely
"Also where I / did entayle the mannor of Mannden otherwise called
Battellshalle in the saide countie of / essex "

Do you, or anyone else on list, know how the Browne family got hold of
the
Manor of Manuden or Battels Hall.

I am doing the Battell/Battaille/Battely family and they appear to have
held that manor,
apparently being a grant of 1086 by William I to Humphrey Bataille, of
which
I would like
confirmation etc.

I have Shelton surname in database but not a Robert .

Richard Shelton around theperiod of time, of which you are discussing
with
Humphrey Browne's will.
Are you able to assist in this matter at all
regards
John H



From the British History on Line there is the following grant

Essex.D. 800. Grant by Thomas Bassyngbourne of Bishops Hatfield co.
Hertford, esquire, to Thomas Kebeel, serjeant-at-law, John Cornewaleys,
esquire, John
Broun, 'gentilman,' Reginald Pegge, and Robert Ellyngton, of the manor of
Manuden Hall, and of a tenement called 'Wodehall' in Ogeley, and of all
his
lands and tenements &c. in Manuden, Ogeley, and Stansted; with letter of
attorney authorising Roger Useley and Thomas Pycher to deliver seisin. 28
May, 6
Henry VII. Signed.
From: 'Deeds: D.701 - D.800', A Descriptive Catalogue of Ancient Deeds:
Volume 3 (1900), pp. 488-499. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... ry=Manuden.
Date accessed: 25 January 2008.

I'm not sure how this John Broun fits with the Brownes of this thread, in
fact the mention of Thomas Kebeel (Kebyll) suggests this John Broun is
the son
of the William Browne who was mayor of London in 1513 and whose second
marriage was to Alice dau of Henry Kebyll and sister of a Thomas Kebyll.
Perhaps
the two families were connected.

I would think that the Victorian County History of Essex would have more
on
Manuden Hall. British History on line has some of these volumes, but I
can't see Manuden.

Regards
Adrian

[Gjest]

On Jan 26, 12:22 am, [email protected] wrote:

There  are at least two places in VCH of Essex which state that Sir Antony's  
great-nephew was Wistan Browne quoting 103 P.R.O., C 142/150,  no. 137,
which, if correct, favours the Visitation of Essex construction. See,  for example,
The manor of South Weald at
_http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=63843&strquery=br....
(http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... uery=br....) .
I have  this Wistan (-1580) as son of George (1510-1558) and grandson of John
Browne and  gr-grandson of Winstan Browne (sheriff of Essex in  1516/17)
In  Morant's Essex, Morant argues that Sir Anthony  was much younger than his
brother John
"Although Antony is the first named son in page 118, it was his brother John
who was of "Abbess-Roding" previously held by their  father, suggesting John
was the eldest brother.  It would also seem that John's son was born in 1510/1
about the same year as Antony's birth, and thus Antony was very much younger
than his  brother John, and I have assumed that Antony is the youngest  son."
By the way I have Sir Humphrey Browne (-1562) father as Thomas Browne
(-1488), (or possibly the Robert as already noted by you) by Mary d of Thomas  
Charlton.  I suspect that this is the Sir Thomas Charlton who died 1465,  another
Speaker of the HoC.

Many thanks, Adrian.

I think the problem here is the lack of primary sources for Anthony's
placement in the family. If VCH and Morant are each relying on the
Visitation of Essex, then they can't be used to verify one another.
It's a shame that ODNB doesn't foot-note its statements, because we do
not know why they say George was Anthony's brother.

Jury stays out I guess!

(I don't suppose you've seen wills for George or Anthony? Anthony is
PROB 11/49, proved PCC 5 June 1567)

Cheers, Michael

[Leo van de Pas]

Dear Richard,
Have you considered that Martha Cooper could be the second wife of Edward
Tooker?

I looked in Burke's Peerage 1899, 1938 and 1999 and all say the same (vague)
thing, Sir John Cooper, 1st Baronet, and his first wife had two sons and a
daughter. They do not name the daughter, but most likely that is the Martha
you mention.

Everywhere I look, especially the Complete Baronetage, say that the children
of Edward Tooker are by Mary Hungerford daughter of Sir John Hungerford.

The son, Sir Giles Tooker, Baronet, married Mary Prideaux, daughter of
Attorney General Edmund Prideaux who was made a Baronet by Oliver Cromwell.

There is so little available about the Tooker family.


You give that Edward was born in 1602 and as his son Sir Giles was born
about 1625, making Edward only 23 which makes me wonder whether Martha
Cooper is his second wife. But then the co-incidence he also has a daughter
called Martha, was Martha Cooper perhaps a first wife?

Edward Tooker has descendants only via his two daughters, but today we have
as his descendants the Dukes of Hamilton, Northumberland, Marlborough,
Grafton, as well as many Australian descendants.

I hope this helps a little?
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: "R C" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 12:37 PM
Subject: Tooker: Cooper, Ashley-Cooper, Hungerford


I am puzzled as to who was the mother of the following children of Edward
Tooker:

"Burke's Extinct and Dormant Baronetcies", p. 529, col. 2, sub TOOKER, of
Maddington, shows (summary)

Edward Tooker, esq., (d. 1688 aged 86), and was succeeded by his son,

Giles was, in 1664, created Sir Giles Tooker, 1st Baronet, of Maddington
(d.s.p. 1675, [sic, so what did his son succeed him in?]).

Sir Giles had sisters, who were his eventual co-heirs

1. Martha Tooker, m. Sir Walter Ernle, 2nd Bt, of Etchilhampton, Wilts.

2. Philippa Tooker, m. Sir Thomas Gore, Kt, of Barrow, Somerset



EDB states that the mother of all three was Mary, daughter of Sir John
HUNGERFORD, Kt, of Down Ampney, Glos.



Elsewhere (see below), it is stated that Giles TOOKER, who matriculated at
Oxford at age 17 in 1642, the son of Edward TOOKER, was a first cousin to
Sir Anthony ASHLEY-COOPER, later 1st Earl of Shaftesbury, and that Edward
TOOKER's wife was Martha COOPER, daughter of Sir John COOPER, Baronet, of
Dorset.

This Giles Tooker (b.ca 1624/5) would appear to be about the right age to
be son of Edward TOOKER (b.ca 1601/2).



I wonder if anyone can clarify this at all?

From "HISTORY OF EXETER COLLEGE" (Publications, Oxford Historical Society),
p. cx.

"Anthony Ashley Cooper Earl of Shaftesbury was a member of Exeter College in
1637. His account of his college career is a curious contribution to the
knowledge of University life in the seventeenth century (Footnote l).



' I kept both horses and servants in Oxford, and was allowed what expense or
recreation I desired, which liberty I never much abused; but it gave me the
opportunity of obliging by entertainments the better sort, and supporting
divers of the activest of the lower rank with giving them leave to eat, when
in distress, upon my expense, it being no small honour among those sort of
men that my name in the buttery book willingly bore twice the expense of any
in the University (Footnote 2).



1=Autobiography quoted in Christie's Life of Shaftesbury.



2= I doubt if this is literally the fact. In the Buttery Book for 2 June
1637 (twelfth week of fourth term) ' Barronet Cooper ' pays 13s 1d', .

University Reg. 24 Mch 1636/7 'Anto' Ashley Cooper, Dorcester. de St Aegid.
Wimbourne in Comitatu predicto baronettus annos natus 15.'

He was admitted to the Fellows' table 4 Mch 1636/7 on paying £6 caution,
and his name continued on the books until 13 July 1638; his brother George
matric. 1 Ap. 1642 age 17. . Cooper's aunt, Martha, married Edward Tooker of
Maddington in Wilts (Hutchins iii. 594). John Toker had his name on the
books from 31 Oct. 1635 to 20 July 1638 when he was a bachelor (B.A. 34 Oct.
1637), but he belonged to a Cornish family. Giles Tooker son of Edward
Tooker of Salisbury, Shaftesbury's cousin, matric. 1 Ap. 1642 age 17. "





Thanks in advance for any help.



Richard






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7:44 PM

[R C]

Dear Leo,

I have been wondering just that. The onomastic evidence makes me think that
Martha Tooker was named for Martha Cooper, but who knows?

I was hoping a list member might be able to clear up this question.

Thank you for your input,

Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: Leo van de Pas [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: 25-Jan-08 11:24 PM
To: R C; [email protected]
Subject: Re: Tooker: Cooper, Ashley-Cooper, Hungerford

Dear Richard,
Have you considered that Martha Cooper could be the second wife of Edward
Tooker?

I looked in Burke's Peerage 1899, 1938 and 1999 and all say the same (vague)

thing, Sir John Cooper, 1st Baronet, and his first wife had two sons and a
daughter. They do not name the daughter, but most likely that is the Martha
you mention.

Everywhere I look, especially the Complete Baronetage, say that the children

of Edward Tooker are by Mary Hungerford daughter of Sir John Hungerford.

The son, Sir Giles Tooker, Baronet, married Mary Prideaux, daughter of
Attorney General Edmund Prideaux who was made a Baronet by Oliver Cromwell.

There is so little available about the Tooker family.


You give that Edward was born in 1602 and as his son Sir Giles was born
about 1625, making Edward only 23 which makes me wonder whether Martha
Cooper is his second wife. But then the co-incidence he also has a daughter
called Martha, was Martha Cooper perhaps a first wife?

Edward Tooker has descendants only via his two daughters, but today we have
as his descendants the Dukes of Hamilton, Northumberland, Marlborough,
Grafton, as well as many Australian descendants.

I hope this helps a little?
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: "R C" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 12:37 PM
Subject: Tooker: Cooper, Ashley-Cooper, Hungerford


I am puzzled as to who was the mother of the following children of Edward
Tooker:

"Burke's Extinct and Dormant Baronetcies", p. 529, col. 2, sub TOOKER, of
Maddington, shows (summary)

Edward Tooker, esq., (d. 1688 aged 86), and was succeeded by his son,

Giles was, in 1664, created Sir Giles Tooker, 1st Baronet, of Maddington
(d.s.p. 1675, [sic, so what did his son succeed him in?]).

Sir Giles had sisters, who were his eventual co-heirs

1. Martha Tooker, m. Sir Walter Ernle, 2nd Bt, of Etchilhampton, Wilts.

2. Philippa Tooker, m. Sir Thomas Gore, Kt, of Barrow, Somerset



EDB states that the mother of all three was Mary, daughter of Sir John
HUNGERFORD, Kt, of Down Ampney, Glos.



Elsewhere (see below), it is stated that Giles TOOKER, who matriculated at
Oxford at age 17 in 1642, the son of Edward TOOKER, was a first cousin to
Sir Anthony ASHLEY-COOPER, later 1st Earl of Shaftesbury, and that Edward
TOOKER's wife was Martha COOPER, daughter of Sir John COOPER, Baronet, of
Dorset.

This Giles Tooker (b.ca 1624/5) would appear to be about the right age to
be son of Edward TOOKER (b.ca 1601/2).



I wonder if anyone can clarify this at all?

From "HISTORY OF EXETER COLLEGE" (Publications, Oxford Historical Society),
p. cx.

"Anthony Ashley Cooper Earl of Shaftesbury was a member of Exeter College in
1637. His account of his college career is a curious contribution to the
knowledge of University life in the seventeenth century (Footnote l).



' I kept both horses and servants in Oxford, and was allowed what expense or
recreation I desired, which liberty I never much abused; but it gave me the
opportunity of obliging by entertainments the better sort, and supporting
divers of the activest of the lower rank with giving them leave to eat, when
in distress, upon my expense, it being no small honour among those sort of
men that my name in the buttery book willingly bore twice the expense of any
in the University (Footnote 2).



1=Autobiography quoted in Christie's Life of Shaftesbury.



2= I doubt if this is literally the fact. In the Buttery Book for 2 June
1637 (twelfth week of fourth term) ' Barronet Cooper ' pays 13s 1d', .

University Reg. 24 Mch 1636/7 'Anto' Ashley Cooper, Dorcester. de St Aegid.
Wimbourne in Comitatu predicto baronettus annos natus 15.'

He was admitted to the Fellows' table 4 Mch 1636/7 on paying £6 caution,
and his name continued on the books until 13 July 1638; his brother George
matric. 1 Ap. 1642 age 17. . Cooper's aunt, Martha, married Edward Tooker of
Maddington in Wilts (Hutchins iii. 594). John Toker had his name on the
books from 31 Oct. 1635 to 20 July 1638 when he was a bachelor (B.A. 34 Oct.
1637), but he belonged to a Cornish family. Giles Tooker son of Edward
Tooker of Salisbury, Shaftesbury's cousin, matric. 1 Ap. 1642 age 17. "





Thanks in advance for any help.



Richard






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Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.11/1244 - Release Date: 1/25/2008
7:44 PM

[tom]

On Jan 26, 12:00 pm, [email protected] wrote:

On Jan 26, 12:22 am, [email protected] wrote:

By the  way I have Sir Humphrey Browne (-1562) father as Thomas Browne
(-1488), (or  possibly the Robert as already noted by you) by Mary d of Thomas  
Charlton.  I suspect that this is the Sir Thomas Charlton who died 1465,  another
Speaker of the HoC.
Regards,
Adrian

Vis Kent 1619 has the following (sub Tufton, pp 118-119):

"Thomas Charlton married Elizabeth, daughter and heir of Adam Francis,
knight, Mayor of London", whence:

"Mary Charlton, daughter and heir [sic] of Thomas Charlton son of
Thomas Charlton, married Thomas Brown, of Langhouse, Essex, armiger",
whence:

"Humphrey Brown, knight, justice of the King's bench [sic], married
Agnes daughter of John, Lord Hussey by Anne, daughter of George Grey,
Earl of Kent", whence:

"Christiana, daughter and coheir of Humphrey Brown, knight, married
John Tufton of Hothfield, Kent, knight and baronet"

MA-R

Hi Folks,
I wonder if two British History Online articles one on the parish of
Ringstead, and the other on Eltham might add clarity or confusion.
Regards
Tom Dunn, Kilbrittain, Co. Cork, Ireland

[Gjest]

On Jan 26, 12:22 am, [email protected] wrote:

By the  way I have Sir Humphrey Browne (-1562) father as Thomas Browne
(-1488), (or  possibly the Robert as already noted by you) by Mary d of Thomas  
Charlton.  I suspect that this is the Sir Thomas Charlton who died 1465,  another
Speaker of the HoC.
Regards,
Adrian

Vis Kent 1619 has the following (sub Tufton, pp 118-119):

"Thomas Charlton married Elizabeth, daughter and heir of Adam Francis,
knight, Mayor of London", whence:

"Mary Charlton, daughter and heir [sic] of Thomas Charlton son of
Thomas Charlton, married Thomas Brown, of Langhouse, Essex, armiger",
whence:

"Humphrey Brown, knight, justice of the King's bench [sic], married
Agnes daughter of John, Lord Hussey by Anne, daughter of George Grey,
Earl of Kent", whence:

"Christiana, daughter and coheir of Humphrey Brown, knight, married
John Tufton of Hothfield, Kent, knight and baronet"

MA-R

[John Foster]

I'll try again. Some rich text got in there somehow, but I have plain text
in my sent file:

I am chasing some of the same things myself. I have been extracting some
from lorenfamily.ged in http://rootsweb.com but don't see Elizabeth Zouche
as part of Eudo La Zouche and Millicent's family.

I'll just give a link and copy/paste since it's short. Parents are different
but the marriage is the one you want. Those who are fighting each other for
the oldest piece of paper may not like this, but it's a start.

http://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi? ... &id=I15505

a.. ID: I15505
a.. Name: Elizabeth La ZOUCHE
a.. Sex: F
a.. Name: Elisabeth La ZOUCHE
a.. Birth: ABT 1294 in Ashley, Leicestershire, England
a.. Birth: ABT 1289
a.. Birth: ABT 1298 in Of, Winchester, Hampshire, England
a.. Death: 1350
a.. Death: AFT 1328
a.. Ancestral File #: 8RQF-ZW

Father: Alan Baron of Ashby ZOUCHE b: 9 OCT 1267 in Ashby, Leicestershire,
England c: 1314 in At Church
Mother: Eleanor SEGRAVE b: ABT 1270 in Segrave, Leicestershire, England

Marriage 1 Oliver (Sir) Baron of INGHAM b: 1289 in Ingham, Norfolk, England
a.. Married: ABT 1312
Children
1.. Joan Baroness de INGHAM b: ABT 1314 in Ellesmere, Norfolk, England
------------------------------------------------------------------------
John C. Foster, retsof *at* austin.rr.com was retsof *at* texas.net
RETSOFtware, where QUALITY is only a slogan...

TX4.US
RETSOF.US
COKELEY.US
LOVE-M-ALL-PETCARE.TX4.US
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patricia A. Junkin" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 10:45 PM
Subject: Zouche-Ingham

All,
I am still working on the la Zouche family and attempting to account
for individuals. From research I have there seems to be no certainty
that Elizabeth Zouche, daughter of Eudo and Milicent married Oliver
Ingham. Eudo and Milicent's daughter, Elizabeth married de Poyntz.
That Oliver Ingham married a daughter of a Zouche seems credible.
Oliver la Zouche, son of Alan and Elena, died in 1316. His grandson or
great grandson was an Oliver who married an Isabel and inherited his
Hampshire property. In In 1338, there is an appointment of Oliver la
Zouche...to arrest named individuals indicted in the death of Oliver
son of Oliver de Ingham, knt. and imprison them in the castle of
Norwich.
Could Elizabeth Zouche possibly be of this line?
Thank you in advance,
Pat

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To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
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12/1/2007 12:05 PM

[Patricia A. Junkin]

Dear John,
I think the problem with this is that Alan and Eleanor Seagraves
Zouche's daughter Elizabeth became a nun.
Oliver la Zouche had a daughter, I believe, named Alicia. In 1316 on
Oliver's death--
Hundred of Forde:
Villa de Chardeforde Johannes de la Zouche and Alicia Gileberd--were
holding.
I focus here because of the name Oliver la Zouche. Elizabeth, in
question, may have been a daughter of John and Eleanor la Zouche of
Fordingbridge and a sister to the Oliver that inherited the old
Oliver's estates in 1349.
Pat
On Jan 26, 2008, at 8:06 AM, John Foster wrote:

I'll try again. Some rich text got in there somehow, but I have
plain text in my sent file:

I am chasing some of the same things myself. I have been extracting
some
from lorenfamily.ged in http://rootsweb.com but don't see Elizabeth
Zouche
as part of Eudo La Zouche and Millicent's family.

I'll just give a link and copy/paste since it's short. Parents are
different
but the marriage is the one you want. Those who are fighting each
other for
the oldest piece of paper may not like this, but it's a start.

http://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi? ... &id=I15505

a.. ID: I15505
a.. Name: Elizabeth La ZOUCHE
a.. Sex: F
a.. Name: Elisabeth La ZOUCHE
a.. Birth: ABT 1294 in Ashley, Leicestershire, England
a.. Birth: ABT 1289
a.. Birth: ABT 1298 in Of, Winchester, Hampshire, England
a.. Death: 1350
a.. Death: AFT 1328
a.. Ancestral File #: 8RQF-ZW

Father: Alan Baron of Ashby ZOUCHE b: 9 OCT 1267 in Ashby,
Leicestershire,
England c: 1314 in At Church
Mother: Eleanor SEGRAVE b: ABT 1270 in Segrave, Leicestershire,
England

Marriage 1 Oliver (Sir) Baron of INGHAM b: 1289 in Ingham, Norfolk,
England
a.. Married: ABT 1312
Children
1.. Joan Baroness de INGHAM b: ABT 1314 in Ellesmere, Norfolk,
England
------------------------------------------------------------------------
John C. Foster, retsof *at* austin.rr.com was retsof *at* texas.net
RETSOFtware, where QUALITY is only a slogan...

TX4.US
RETSOF.US
COKELEY.US
LOVE-M-ALL-PETCARE.TX4.US
----- Original Message ----- From: "Patricia A. Junkin" <[email protected]

To: <[email protected]
Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 10:45 PM
Subject: Zouche-Ingham


All,
I am still working on the la Zouche family and attempting to account
for individuals. From research I have there seems to be no certainty
that Elizabeth Zouche, daughter of Eudo and Milicent married Oliver
Ingham. Eudo and Milicent's daughter, Elizabeth married de Poyntz.
That Oliver Ingham married a daughter of a Zouche seems credible.
Oliver la Zouche, son of Alan and Elena, died in 1316. His grandson
or
great grandson was an Oliver who married an Isabel and inherited his
Hampshire property. In In 1338, there is an appointment of Oliver la
Zouche...to arrest named individuals indicted in the death of Oliver
son of Oliver de Ingham, knt. and imprison them in the castle of
Norwich.
Could Elizabeth Zouche possibly be of this line?
Thank you in advance,
Pat

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To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected]
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Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
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[Gjest]

In a message dated 26/01/2008 06:50:14 GMT Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

On Jan 26, 12:22 am, [email protected] wrote:

There are at least two places in VCH of Essex which state that Sir
Antony's
great-nephew was Wistan Browne quoting 103 P.R.O., C 142/150, no. 137,
which, if correct, favours the Visitation of Essex construction. See, for
example,
The manor of South Weald at
_http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=63843&strquery=br...
(http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... query=br...)
.
I have this Wistan (-1580) as son of George (1510-1558) and grandson of
John
Browne and gr-grandson of Winstan Browne (sheriff of Essex in 1516/17)
In Morant's Essex, Morant argues that Sir Anthony was much younger than
his
brother John
"Although Antony is the first named son in page 118, it was his brother
John
who was of "Abbess-Roding" previously held by their father, suggesting John
was the eldest brother. It would also seem that John's son was born in
1510/1
about the same year as Antony's birth, and thus Antony was very much
younger
than his brother John, and I have assumed that Antony is the youngest
son."
By the way I have Sir Humphrey Browne (-1562) father as Thomas Browne
(-1488), (or possibly the Robert as already noted by you) by Mary d of
Thomas
Charlton. I suspect that this is the Sir Thomas Charlton who died 1465,
another
Speaker of the HoC.

Many thanks, Adrian.

I think the problem here is the lack of primary sources for Anthony's
placement in the family. If VCH and Morant are each relying on the
Visitation of Essex, then they can't be used to verify one another.
It's a shame that ODNB doesn't foot-note its statements, because we do
not know why they say George was Anthony's brother.

Jury stays out I guess!

(I don't suppose you've seen wills for George or Anthony? Anthony is
PROB 11/49, proved PCC 5 June 1567)

Cheers, Michael



<<<<<<

I might as well add this Anthony Browne's transcription to my records,
rather conveniently, the answer comes in line three:


"Anthony Brown, (Sir) Justice of the Common Bench of South Weald, Essex; 05
June 1567; PROB 11/49
[[Margin:] Testamentum Anthony Brown nure[?] Justuiar Co’is Banci Westm]
In the name of allmghtie god the father the sonne and
the hollie gost Amen I Anthonye Brown of Sowthewelde in the Countie of
essex
one of the Justices of the Comen Benche and one of the of the sonnes of
Weston Browne"
I will post the whole in a day or two
No sign of George Browne's will, either in PCC or in Dr Emmisons Essex
Wills, but I did download Georges' son, another Wistan Browne, PCC Will of 1581,
which I will also work on.
Cheers,
Adrian

[John Foster]

Pattern checking in Rootsweb remains fuzzy, as the parents of Elizabeth are
any of several --- Eudo/William and Millicent de Cantilupe (at least one
lists two marr. of Eliz, to both Ingham and Poyntz), Allen of Ashby Zouche
and Eleanor Segrave (which I mentioned), William la Zouche and Maud Lovel,
and one holdout for William III la Zouche and Elizabeth Crosse.

Many list Eudo's death in before 1279, and Elizabeth's birth not until
1282-1295, so I wonder. Eudo seems too old for Elizabeth's timeline.

I don't yet discount the nun thing, because (1) that could have happened
later and (2) many of the Popes of this era themselves had families.

genealogics.org lists the Elizabeth la Zouche, Nun at Brewood as dau. of
Alan la Zouche and Eleanor de Segrave.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_se ... tive_popes

Gary Boyd Roberts RD600 (page 526) lists

Milicent de Cantilupe = Eudo la Zouche
Elizabeth la Zouche = Sir Nicholas Poyntz

so at least that part has some credibility. It may not be the same
Elizabeth, as we know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Ingham

ducks assigning parents for Elizabeth Zouche b 1282, Ellesmere, Shropshire

Nailing down the death of Eudo la Zouche would help if it eliminates him as
the father of Elizabeth.

Magna Charta Sureties, 5th ed. p. 90 has Eudo la Zouche, of Haryngworth, d.
betw. 28 Apr. and 25 Jun 1279; m. Milicent de Cantelou.

Checking patterns again -- most have 1282 as birthdate, one with 1278 and
several with 1300. However, some who list 2 marriages with Poyntz have
birthdate 1274. Some even throw in a 3rd spouse, John de Harcourt and a 4th,
stretching credibility.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
John C. Foster, retsof *at* austin.rr.com was retsof *at* texas.net
RETSOFtware, where QUALITY is only a slogan...

TX4.US
RETSOF.US
COKELEY.US
LOVE-M-ALL-PETCARE.TX4.US
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patricia A. Junkin" <[email protected]>
To: "John Foster" <[email protected]>
Cc: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: Zouche-Ingham

Dear John,
I think the problem with this is that Alan and Eleanor Seagraves
Zouche's daughter Elizabeth became a nun.
Oliver la Zouche had a daughter, I believe, named Alicia. In 1316 on
Oliver's death--
Hundred of Forde:
Villa de Chardeforde Johannes de la Zouche and Alicia Gileberd--were
holding.
I focus here because of the name Oliver la Zouche. Elizabeth, in
question, may have been a daughter of John and Eleanor la Zouche of
Fordingbridge and a sister to the Oliver that inherited the old
Oliver's estates in 1349.
Pat
On Jan 26, 2008, at 8:06 AM, John Foster wrote:

I'll try again. Some rich text got in there somehow, but I have
plain text in my sent file:

I am chasing some of the same things myself. I have been extracting
some
from lorenfamily.ged in http://rootsweb.com but don't see Elizabeth
Zouche
as part of Eudo La Zouche and Millicent's family.

I'll just give a link and copy/paste since it's short. Parents are
different
but the marriage is the one you want. Those who are fighting each
other for
the oldest piece of paper may not like this, but it's a start.

http://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi? ... &id=I15505

a.. ID: I15505
a.. Name: Elizabeth La ZOUCHE
a.. Sex: F
a.. Name: Elisabeth La ZOUCHE
a.. Birth: ABT 1294 in Ashley, Leicestershire, England
a.. Birth: ABT 1289
a.. Birth: ABT 1298 in Of, Winchester, Hampshire, England
a.. Death: 1350
a.. Death: AFT 1328
a.. Ancestral File #: 8RQF-ZW

Father: Alan Baron of Ashby ZOUCHE b: 9 OCT 1267 in Ashby,
Leicestershire,
England c: 1314 in At Church
Mother: Eleanor SEGRAVE b: ABT 1270 in Segrave, Leicestershire,
England

Marriage 1 Oliver (Sir) Baron of INGHAM b: 1289 in Ingham, Norfolk,
England
a.. Married: ABT 1312
Children
1.. Joan Baroness de INGHAM b: ABT 1314 in Ellesmere, Norfolk,
England
------------------------------------------------------------------------
John C. Foster, retsof *at* austin.rr.com was retsof *at* texas.net
RETSOFtware, where QUALITY is only a slogan...

TX4.US
RETSOF.US
COKELEY.US
LOVE-M-ALL-PETCARE.TX4.US
----- Original Message ----- From: "Patricia A. Junkin"
[email protected]

To: <[email protected]
Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 10:45 PM
Subject: Zouche-Ingham


All,
I am still working on the la Zouche family and attempting to account
for individuals. From research I have there seems to be no certainty
that Elizabeth Zouche, daughter of Eudo and Milicent married Oliver
Ingham. Eudo and Milicent's daughter, Elizabeth married de Poyntz.
That Oliver Ingham married a daughter of a Zouche seems credible.
Oliver la Zouche, son of Alan and Elena, died in 1316. His grandson
or
great grandson was an Oliver who married an Isabel and inherited his
Hampshire property. In In 1338, there is an appointment of Oliver la
Zouche...to arrest named individuals indicted in the death of Oliver
son of Oliver de Ingham, knt. and imprison them in the castle of
Norwich.
Could Elizabeth Zouche possibly be of this line?
Thank you in advance,
Pat

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[Gjest]

In a message dated 1/24/2008 11:00:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

On Jan 24, 12:15 pm, "Leo van de Pas" <[email protected]>
wrote:

Also I found a description about "Ibn Nasr al Jazrayi al Ansari, as soon
as he became Sultan of Al-Andalus and Emir of Granada-----"
What was their title? I looked in the book by Zambour but could not see
what title he applied,

While not directly relevant to Leo's question, this raises the issue
of what a "king" really was in Iberia. By the 13th century, it was
pretty clear, but as you get earlier, it becomes more vague.

Ramiro I of Aragon is called king by his vassals, his neighbors, the
church, and even his own sons, but if you look to the identifying
phrase of his charter, he refers to himself as simply "I Ramiro, son
of king Sancho", and always refers to his property as being held in
stewardship, not even as a county. (Garcia refers to him once as
'regulus', and once as 'ruling as if he were king'.) His son Sancho
likewise is simply "I Sancho, son of king Ramiro". THis is
particularly curious, as he is clearly occupying the same role as is
father, he calls his father 'king', yet he is unwilling to claim this
status for himself. (This is not just a false-humility affectation,
hinting at personal kingship by naming his father as king, his
illegitimate half-brother uses exactly the same form.) Later he is
"Sancho, by God's grace, of Aragon", again without any further title.
It is not until he acquires Navarre that he calls himself 'rex' of
Navarre and Aragon.

A few generations earlier, you have Sancho Garces (II), King of
Navarre, with younger brother Ramiro Garces, King of Viguera, but
clearly Ramiro was not autonomous, but rather a sub-king or underking
- little more than a glorified count (ala the Castile counts, who were
little less than independent monarchs until the death of Sancho
Garcia). Here is the real twist, though. Their brother Jimeno Garces
appears in a contemporary document as Jimeno rex, and there is no
indication that he had any territory equivalent to Ramiro's Viguera,
or any territory at all, for that matter.

Turn the clock back earlier, and we have Sancho Garces (I) being
followed by "king" Jimeno Garces. Typically Jimeno is described as
'acting king' as regent for his nephew, but was he? For the majority
of his reign, there is no indication that he was anything but a full
king, and when Garcia appears, it is as a secondary participant, and
without title, up until the last charter, in which Jimeno rex is still
the primary, but Garcia does also appear as rex. I have to wonder if
we aren't applying modern concepts of legitimate succession on a fluid
situation - when a king gains the crown due to the influence of a
foreign ally and his maternal uncle, then legitimizes his succession
by marrying an heiress of the former line (ala Henry VII), is he
automatically, in the early 10th century, going to be followed by his
infant son when the king's brother is also nephew of the same maternal
uncle, ally of the same foreign king, and married to a sister of his
brother's legitimizing wife? By the logic applied, one would have to
consider Eadred 'regent' for Eadwige.


More puzzling, their older brother Inigo Garces is referred to as
"king" by the Roda Codex, and there is no evidence that he ever
controlled Navarre, as king or regent. Remembering that his father is
called by the same document "king in another part" of the kingdom, one
wonders if Inigo's role was similar, but what is this title really
equivalent to? Lacarra, in his second paper on the Roda document,
suggests that it has many similarities to the works of the Muslim
genealogist Ibn Hazm, and that it probably represents an Ebro valley
Muslim compilation that then passed back to the Cristian realm in the
11th century. If so, then "king" in this case may not represent their
true status, but rather their status translated into Arabic, then
translated back to regional Latin a century or so later. Could it
have started as 'chieftain', been translated to 'emir', and then when
it passed back, been represented as 'king'? (It could be argued that
using "king" for the rulers of Dal Riada or early Wessex is equally
anachronistically generous.)

taf

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Dear T odd, How so if the ruler of Dalriada or any of the
Saxon kings referred to themselves in documents as Rex ? As to Eadraed being
regent for his nephew Eadwig, He wasn`t. The Witan raised him to the throne
and in succession raised Eadwig, then the latter`s younger brother Eadgar.
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA






**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/n ... 3000000025
48)

[D. Spencer Hines]

Ah, Yes...

The Lanier Ancestors and Cousins.

DSH

"Don Stone" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

Hovite wrote:
On Jan 26, 5:54 am, "Leo van de Pas" <[email protected]> wrote:

"For centuries there has been doubt .. I believe ... never been
convincingly identified. I believe her ... may have been authorised by
Shakespeare."

Looks like pure nonsense from beginning to end.

Most of the Sonnets are love poems addressed to a man.

Sonnet 126 begins:
"O thou, my lovely boy, who in thy power"

The poems are dedicated to Mr W H.

The sonnets addressed to an anonymous woman are 127-152. But "for the
most part, it is assumed that she is a figment of Shakespeare's
imagination. Also, the 'darkness' may refer to her nature rather than
her appearance, or the 'dark' force of lust as opposed to the platonic
love felt for the Fair Lord."

http://www.newagebd.com/2006/apr/21/apr ... _also3.htm

A. L. Rowse was a vigorous proponent of the hypothesis that the Dark Lady
was Emilia Bassano (1569-1645), who married Alphonso Lanier (d. 1613).
Members of her family were musicians at the court of Queen Elizabeth. See
details, for example, at http://www.peterbassano.com/shakespeare. Emilia
has two genealogical connections with America: her first cousin Lucretia
Bassano married Nicholas Lanier and became grandmother of the Virginia
immigrant John Lanier, and her first cousin three times removed, Anne
Bassano, "went to Virginia, N. America, and married _________," according
to the Bassano pedigree in the _History and Gazetteer of the County of
Derby_ (1829), p. 576.

-- Don Stone

[Gjest]

On Jan 26, 12:37 pm, [email protected] wrote:

[email protected] writes:

Turn the clock back earlier, and we have Sancho Garces (I) being
followed by "king" Jimeno Garces. Typically Jimeno is described as
'acting king' as regent for his nephew, but was he? For the majority
of his reign, there is no indication that he was anything but a full
king, and when Garcia appears, it is as a secondary participant, and
without title, up until the last charter, in which Jimeno rex is still
the primary, but Garcia does also appear as rex. I have to wonder if
we aren't applying modern concepts of legitimate succession on a fluid
situation - when a king gains the crown due to the influence of a
foreign ally and his maternal uncle, then legitimizes his succession
by marrying an heiress of the former line (ala Henry VII), is he
automatically, in the early 10th century, going to be followed by his
infant son when the king's brother is also nephew of the same maternal
uncle, ally of the same foreign king, and married to a sister of his
brother's legitimizing wife? By the logic applied, one would have to
consider Eadred 'regent' for Eadwige.

More puzzling, their older brother Inigo Garces is referred to as
"king" by the Roda Codex, and there is no evidence that he ever
controlled Navarre, as king or regent. Remembering that his father is
called by the same document "king in another part" of the kingdom, one
wonders if Inigo's role was similar, but what is this title really
equivalent to? Lacarra, in his second paper on the Roda document,
suggests that it has many similarities to the works of the Muslim
genealogist Ibn Hazm, and that it probably represents an Ebro valley
Muslim compilation that then passed back to the Cristian realm in the
11th century. If so, then "king" in this case may not represent their
true status, but rather their status translated into Arabic, then
translated back to regional Latin a century or so later. Could it
have started as 'chieftain', been translated to 'emir', and then when
it passed back, been represented as 'king'? (It could be argued that
using "king" for the rulers of Dal Riada or early Wessex is equally
anachronistically generous.)

Dear T odd, How so if the ruler of Dalriada or any of the
Saxon kings referred to themselves in documents as Rex ?

Show me the document in which any of the _early_ 'kings' of Wessex
referred to themselves at all. Cynric, or Cerdic, or Ceolwine. Or
Fergus MacErcc, Aidan, Gaibran called themselves "rex"?

As to Eadraed being
regent for his nephew Eadwig, He wasn`t. The Witan raised him to the throne
and in succession raised Eadwig, then the latter`s younger brother Eadgar.

Yes, that is precisely my point - it has been concluded that Jimeno
was only "king" as regent for his nephew Garcia, based on nothing
other than the modern concept that Sancho 'should' have been succeeded
by his son, and that Garcia eventually became king in his own right in
succession to Jimeno. Well, the same applies to Eadred. My point is
that people in the 10th century had different views of who should
succeed whom than we do, and as is seen with Eadred, a man with a
young son could be succeeded by his brother, as full king and not
regent for the nephew who would eventually follow. If Eadred could do
it, why not Jimeno Garces?

taf

[Gjest]

Well, yes, Ireland had a multitude of kings, and a joke in my catholic
school was that an Irish king was as common as a free man - quite apt really.
An Irish king was, to all intents and purposes, a chieftain of a
semi-autonomous tribe.

So what was a king of an area in the Iberian peninsula? At best an
autonomous ruler, at worst a chieftain. One could delve into the meaning of an African
king or even of a chieftain of a section of the Algonquins or the Navajo -
it means the same.........or even of the Chirikawa(Cherokee). What of the
paramount chief of the Sioux or the Apache, would he have been an emperor?

I aim to please, so will you please aim?

Pg

[D. Spencer Hines]

Ignorance Writ Large...

Columbus and Verrazzano were both Italians.

So were many others.

Italians make good sailors.

The Laniers, with Bassano blood, emigrated from Britain to Virginia in the
17th Century.

DSH

"Leo van de Pas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

Dear Don,

What I love about genealogy is that when A is being said, others look at
it and say, what about B and C? In this case the Bassano information is
incredible. When you talk about that period, you do not think of Italians
having links to North America.

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas

[Eileen Hook]

Leo van de Pas wrote:

There are people who doubt William Shakespeare wrote the works attributed to him, now there is someone who does want to attribute something to him and if proven (I doubt in will or can) could have interesting implications.

Only today did I pick up the Christmas issue 2007 of Family History Monthly. On page 12 is a story about the research of Hildegard Hammerschmidt-Hummel. She lectures in English Literature at the University of Mainz in Germany.

I will let her speak for herself, but I am going to change one word, she says she produced evidence, and I think it is only a suggestion.

"For centuries there has been doubt about the identity of Shakespeare's 'Dark Lady', who he wrote a number of sonnets about. I believe she was Elizabeth Vernon, who in 1598 married the Earl of Southampton, when she was already highly pregnant. I was able to produce suggestions that it was William Shakespeare, not the 3rd Earl of Southampton, who fathered Vernon's first-born daughter Penelope."

"One of my main sources was the painting "The Persian Lady" by Marcus Gheeraerts the Younger., created in the 1590s when Shakespeare's sonnets were written. Until now its subject has never been convincingly identified. I believe her to be the Countess of Southampton. The paintings contains an anonymous sonnet, which may have been authorised by Shakespeare. This turned out to be the missing final poem of the Dark Lady cycle., in which the turbulent three-way relationship between the poet, his mistress and his noble friend is described. The 'friend' was the third Earl of Southampton."

(Don't forget she lives in Germany) "With an expert from the German Federal Bureau of Criminal Investigation, I compared the Persian Lady's facial features with those in a portrait of the Countess of Southampton dating from about 1600. They proved to be in striking agreement. A comparison between a portrait of Penelope and those of her alleged father, the Earl of Southampton, showed no resemblance at all. A compaqrison between Penelope and an image of Shakespeare, however, revealed a striking resemblance."

"Additional evidence for the relationship between Elizabeth and Shakespeare comes from an overlooked clue in the portrait of the Countess of Southampton: the face of a man on her sleeve. This does not have the features of her husband. However, it does bear an amazing resemblance to William Shakespeare."

"My investigations into the identity of Shakespeare's Dark Lady took roughly three years. Once the identity of the poet's beloved was established and the question of who had fathered her first-born child settled, it was easy to find out that a direct bloodline existed through to the present day, passing through the Spencer family."
------------------------------------
Does anyone know those sonnets? Are they about a triangle in which the young nobleman marries the poets pregnant mistress?
Interesting and fascinating.

Through "the Spencer family" quite a few interesting and important people are descended from this Penelope and so (possibly) from William Shakespeare.

Author Lady Antonia Fraser, the Duke of Richmond, the Earl of Albemarle, Sarah Ferguson, the Prince von Thurn und Taxis,
the Duke of Buccleuch, the Duke of Devonshire, the Duke of Abercorn, the Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne, the Earl of Lichfield, HM the Queen, the Duke of Roxburghe, the Duke of Marlborough, Rachel Ward, the Prince zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg, the Prince zu Bentheim-Tecklenburg, the Prince zu Furstenberg, the Duke of Westminster, the Marquess of Salisbury, the Duke of Leinster, Davina Sheffield, the Duke of Bedford, and by the way also Lady Diana Spencer.

I have made a file with 6,974 descendants (plus spouses plus in-laws) of this Penelope, if anyone is interested, I gladly pass it on.

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

While William Shakespeare is under discussion, have any of you read the
book '"Shakespeare" By Another Name' by Mark Anderson? He makes a
pretty convincing case for Edward De Vere, Earl of Oxford, being the
actual writer of the works of Shakespeare. Using documents and records
of the lifetimes in question, he shows that the Stratford-on Avon Will
was not well-educated, had never traveled abroad and never had any
impressive amount of money. He has found contemporary pamphlets that
deride this Will as a literary pretender. He also sites the events in
Edward De Vere's life and how they make up many of the situations used
in the plays. I'd be interested to hear how others, who have read
Anderson's book, view this information.

[Peter Stewart]

"Eileen Hook" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

While William Shakespeare is under discussion, have any of you read the
book '"Shakespeare" By Another Name' by Mark Anderson? He makes a pretty
convincing case for Edward De Vere, Earl of Oxford, being the actual
writer of the works of Shakespeare. Using documents and records of the
lifetimes in question, he shows that the Stratford-on Avon Will was not
well-educated, had never traveled abroad and never had any impressive
amount of money. He has found contemporary pamphlets that deride this
Will as a literary pretender. He also sites the events in Edward De
Vere's life and how they make up many of the situations used in the plays.
I'd be interested to hear how others, who have read Anderson's book, view
this information.

As half-baked tripe, I'm afraid. He should have started by acknowledging
that Shakespeare - whoever wrote the plays - was an imaginative genius, not
a compulsive autobiographical sketch artist.

And then he should have considered the overwhelming evidence that a William
Shakespeare from Stratford actually did write the plays and poems attributed
to him.

If Anderson had done this and still thought there was room for a contrary
view, as a series of nutters and zealots have done for 150 or so years now,
then he could have written a much better book to promote his candidate.
There is nothing - NIL - in the writings of Edward de Vere to suggest that
he could have written even the splendid prose of Shakespeare, much less the
magnificent drama, much less again the incomparable poetry.

Peter Stewart

[Gjest]

On Jan 27, 5:52 am, [email protected] wrote:

I might as well add this Anthony Browne's transcription to my records,
rather conveniently, the answer comes in line three:

"Anthony Brown, (Sir) Justice of the Common Bench of South Weald, Essex;
5 June 1567; PROB 11/49 [[Margin:] Testamentum Anthony Brown nure[?]

presumably "nuper" = "until recently"

Justuiar Co'is Banci Westm]
In the name of allmghtie god the father the sonne and the hollie gost
Amen I Anthonye Brown of Sowthewelde in the Countie of essex
one of the Justices of the Comen Benche and one of the of the sonnes of
Weston Browne"
I will post the whole in a day or two
No sign of George Browne's will, either in PCC or in Dr Emmisons Essex
Wills, but I did download Georges' son, another Wistan Browne, PCC Will
of 1581, which I will also work on.

Adrian - another great find. Many thanks.

That settles that then!

Best wishes, Michael

[D. Spencer Hines]

Here's some more on Aemilia Bassano Lanier.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Lanier, Emilia (c. 1569 - 1645)

Aemilia Lanyer.

"English-born poet; daughter of a musician, Baptista Bassano; wife of a
composer, Alphonso Lanier. According to an entry in the notebooks of Simon
Forman in 1597, she had been the mistress of Lord Hunsdon (see Lord
Chamberlain's Men). A. L. Rowse has claimed her as the Dark Lady of the
Sonnets. For an edition of her works see The Poems of Aemilia Lanyer, edited
by Susanne Woods (Oxford, 1993).

A Dictionary of Shakespeare, Oxford University Press, © Stanley Wells 1998

Lord Chamberlain's Men

A theatre company formed in 1594 under the patronage of Henry Carey, 1st
Lord Hunsdon, Lord Chamberlain from 1585 till his death in 1596 .
Shakespeare may have been an original member; he was prominent within it by
March 1595, and remained with it as shareholder and playwright for the rest
of his career.

In its early years, the company performed mainly at the Theatre, then at the
Curtain. It was known as Hunsdon's Men between July 1596 and March 1597,
when the second Lord Hunsdon was appointed Lord Chamberlain. By 1599 it
occupied the Globe Theatre, and for the next ten years was the leading
London company, with unusually stable membership, and with Richard Burbage
as its principal actor.

In 1603, when James I succeeded Elizabeth, he gave the company a royal
patent, and it became the King's Men. From 1603 to 1616 it played an average
of twelve performances a year at Court. James supplied nine members,
including Shakespeare, with four-and-a-half yards of red cloth each to make
liveries to wear in his coronation procession.

In late 1608 the company bought the Blackfriars Theatre, and probably
started using it as their winter house in 1609. The Globe burned down in
1613, and was rebuilt the following year. The company continued to be
successful till the closing of the theatres, in 1642.

A Dictionary of Shakespeare, Oxford University Press, © Stanley Wells 1998

Dark Lady of the Sonnets

The woman referred to, and addressed, in many of Shakespeare's Sonnets
127-54, and possibly in others. Many attempts have been made to identify her
with a real person, such as Mary Fitton, one of Queen Elizabeth's maids of
honour. A. L. Rowse suggested Emilia Lanier, put forward in his Shakespeare
the Man (1973), and Jonathan Bate, in The Genius of Shakespeare (1997),
argued for the wife of John Florio. Neither of these claims can be supported
by hard evidence.

A Dictionary of Shakespeare, Oxford University Press, © Stanley Wells 1998

Florio, John (1553? - 1625)

English-born translator, of Italian descent, educated at Oxford, tutor of
Henry Wriothesley, 3rd Earl of Southampton. Shakespeare knew his translation
of Montaigne, and may have known him.

A Dictionary of Shakespeare, Oxford University Press, ©

Fitton, Mary (c. 1578 - 1647)

One of Queen Elizabeth's maids of honour; she became the mistress of William
Herbert, Earl of Pembroke, and has sometimes been thought to be the Dark
Lady of the Sonnets.

A Dictionary of Shakespeare, Oxford University Press, © Stanley Wells 1998

Aemilia Lanyer: Redeeming Women Through Faith & Poetry (pt. 1)

Author: Michelle Powell-Smith

Published on: April 4, 2000

Related Subject(s): Lanyer, Aemilia. Salve Deus Rex Judaeorum , Poets,
English -- Early modern, 1500-1700 -- Biography , Lanyer, Aemilia --
Criticism and interpretation

Aemilia Lanyer is one of the more interesting women poets of the English
renaissance. Her work, Salve Deus Rex Judaeorum, effectively rewrites
biblical history to provide a much more positive view of women throughout
history. This first article will provide a brief biography & bibliography on
Lanyer. Next week, I'll include some analyses and theories concerning her
work. For the text of Salve Deus Rex Judaeorum, please refer to the books in
the bibliography, or take a look at
http://www.usask.ca/english/phoenix/lany... for some excerpts of Salve Deus
Rex Judaeorum.

Biography: Daughter of a court musician, Baptista Bassano & his common law
wife, Margaret Johnson.

Baptista died when she was 7 years old, Margaret when she was 18.

Aemilia was educated by Susan Bertie, the Countess of Kent. She received a
good humanist education, inspired by Cheke, Ascham, and Wilson, with an
emphasis on Cicero. Her education included Latin, some Greek & rhetoric.

By 20, Aemilia was the mistress of Henry Carey, Lord Chamberlain. He was
likely the father of her first child, a son, Henry Lanyer.

Aemilia married Alfonso Lanyer, a court musician, in 1592. Marriage was
likely arranged to cover her pregnancy.

Regularly visited astrologer Simon Forman. This is where much of our
biographical information comes from. She was concerned about repeated
miscarriages and family fortune. Forman expresses some frustration that
Aemilia wouldn't sleep with him (but she did become romantically involved
with him to an extent).

Published Salve Deus Rex Judaeorum in 1610/11.

Alfonso Lanyer died 1613. Aemilia ran a school from 1617-19. Spent time,
possibly as a music tutor with Margaret, Countess of Cumberland, dates
unknown, although there is a prose dedication to Margaret in Salve Deus.

Records list her as a pensioner (meaning that she had an income) at the time
of her death in 1645.

Salve Deus Rex Judaeorum: Salve Deus may be divided into three parts. The
first consists of 9 dedicatory poems, a prose dedication, and an epistle to
the reader.

The second part is a meditation on the Passion and Death of Christ. It
includes Eve's Apology, The Tears of the Daughters of Jerusalem, The
Salutation & Sorrow of the Virgin.

The third part is a country house poem, "The Description of Cooke-Ham".
Celebration of estate as lost female paradise. (May be 1st "country house"
poem, published before Jonson's "To Penhurst")

Some ideas for analysis: (These will be discussed in detail in next week's
article) Lanyer's religious background. Influence of prophetic/apocalyptic
writings. Subversive feminine discourse in Lanyer. Women's voices in
scripture. Community of good women.

Bibliography Beilin, Elaine. Redeeming Eve. Princeton: Princeton University
Press, 1987. Froula, Christine. "When Eve Reads Milton: Undoing the
Canonical Economy" Critical Inquiry 10 (1983) 321-347. Lewalski, Barbara K.
"Of God and Good Women: The Poems of Aemilia Lanyer." In Silent but for the
Word: Tudor Women as Patrons, Translators and Writers of Religious Works.
Ed. Margaret Patterson Hannay, 203-24. Kent: Kent State University,
1985. -----. Protestant Poetics and the Seventeenth Century Religious Lyric.
Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1979. -----. "Re-writing Patriarchy
and Patronage: Margaret Clifford, Anne Clifford and Aemilia Lanyer,"
Yearbook of English Studies 21 (1991) 87-106. -----. Writing Women in
Jacobean England. Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1993. Ramsey, Paul.
"Darkness Lightened: A.L. Rowse's Dark Lady Once More," Upstart Crow (fall
1984) 143-5. Richey, Esther Gilman. The Politics of Revelation in the
English Renaissance. Columbia: University of Missouri Press, 1998.

Aemilia Lanyer: Redeeming Women Through Faith and Poetry

Author: Michelle Powell-Smith

Published on: April 11, 2000

Related Subject(s): Lanyer, Aemilia , Lanyer, Aemilia. Salve Deus Rex
Judaeorum , Lanyer, Aemilia -- Criticism and interpretation

This short essay explores some of the possible interpretations for Aemilia
Lanyer's Salve Deus Rex Judaeorum.

Lanyer's own religious background has been debated. It has been suggested
that she was a converted Jew, largely on the basis of the title of her work.
This, however, seems unlikely. Lanyer attributed the title of Salve Deus to
a dream she'd had many years before its writing and internal clues in the
poem, as well as Lanyer's circle of acquaintances, lend far more certainty
to the theory that Lanyer was actually a radical protestant. Susan Bertie,
the Countess of Kent, was responsible for Lanyer's education. Bertie had
multiple connections to radical protestantism, including a close
relationship with Anne Lock, who translated Calvin and Taffin into English.

Lanyer's poem may be related to prophetic writings of the time, thus further
supporting the theory that she herself was staunchly protestant. Prophetic
writings of the renaissance placed women at the forefront of their
apocalyptic visions. The reversal of power present in these works provided
Lanyer with a theoretical basis for Salve Deus.

Salve Deus Rex Judaeorum provides a new interpretation and embellishment of
scriptural texts. Lanyer was not the first to reinterpret scripture to
create a more favorable view of women. It had been done repeatedly by women
in defense of their sex during the course of the pamphlet wars concerning
women. "Eve's Apology" rewrites the Genesis story, creating Eve as an
innocent and placing the final glory of salvation in her hands.

Lanyer also finds/creates the voices of women from the bible whose voices
have not been heard, including the wife of Pilate. She places the blame for
the crucifixion on men, rather than women, and attributes the eventual
salvation of humanity to the goodness of women.

Lanyer's text also provides us with an idea of feminine vs. masculine
discourse. Lanyer finds that men are responsible for suffering, and that
men, through their reading of biblical texts, blaspheme Christ. Women, on
the other hand, find the truth in these texts. It is through woman (Mary)
that salvation came, and through the writing of women that faith may be
properly understood.

Lanyer's work also celebrates a sort of community of good women,
specifically the community that developed around Margaret Clifford, the
Countess of Cumberland. Margaret is celebrated as a Christ like figure with
the wisdom of Solomon. The redemption of women will come through the actions
of the Countess of Cumberland. This community is separate and distinct from
male society and Lanyer names herself its poet.

Aemilia Lanyer's Salve Deus Rex Judaeorum is a fascinating and unusual work.
It celebrates women as the heart of Christianity and clearly attests to
Aemilia Lanyer's own deep and abiding faith.

"The name Emilia is often written as Aemilia. Many times she is referred to
as Aemilia Lanyer.

Emilia for some time was a mistress to Henry Carey, the first Lord Hunsdon,
who was also Lord Chamberlain. She became pregnant by Henry Carey and was
married off to Alphonse Lanier. Henry Carey was the father of her son, Henry
Lanier. Emilia Bassano was raised with the Countess of Kent, Susan
Wingfield.

Most scholars now believe that Emilia Bassano was the Dark Lady of Sonnets
127-151 written by William Shakespeare and that she had an affair with him.
Emilia Bassano was a feminist at a time when there were not many others.
Emilia Bassano was a musician and a poet. The instrument she played was
called the virginals and was a forerunner of the piano of today. She
published a book of poetry with a Christian theme not long after
Shakespeare's sonnets were published.

Alphonse Lanier was one of the fifty-nine musicians that played at the
funeral of Queen Elizabeth I."

[Gjest]

On Jan 27, 5:52 am, [email protected] wrote:

No  sign of George Browne's will, either in PCC or in Dr Emmisons Essex
Wills, but  I did download Georges' son, another Wistan Browne, PCC Will
of 1581, which I  will also work on.
Cheers,
Adrian

This item from PROCAT indicates that George Brown was dead by 15
Elizabeth I (1572-3):

Parties: Wistan Browne, son and heir of George Browne Subject:
Traverse of inquisition taken on death of said George Browne. Judgment
Places: Rokewood Hall manor, Langenhoe manor; Abbess Rodinge,
Beauchamp Roding, Margaret Roding, Laver Parva, Laver Alta, Langenhoe,
Abberton, Peldon, Fingringhoe, Bere, messuages, lands etc; Langenhoe,
advowson County: Essex

Piece details C 43/6/90

MA-R

[Mary Zashin]

Frances BALDWIN TOWNSHEND JONES WILLIAMS was the mother of Robert
TOWNSHEND (b 1640, d 11 Apr 1675, VA). Robert's wife was Mary
LANGHORNE (b 1636, d bef 7 Nov 1694, VA). Mary LANGHORNE was the
daughter of Needham LANGHORNE (d Aug 1673) and Mary BOSTOCK (d Jun
1653). I found the following statement in Va. Genealogies, Vol. V,
"The Virginia Washingtons and the Manor of Newton Bromswold," by S.
H. Lee Washington, and would like to ask if there is any substance to
it:

"Many years ago a writer sugested that Needham LANGHORNE was probably
some descendant of the Langhornes of Bedfordshire, who recorded a
pedegree in the Hertfordshire Visitation of 1634, but up til the
present nothing whatever has been ascertained about him. . .he was
the fourth son of Robert LANGHORNE of Harrold Park, co. Bedford, and
through his mother, Margaret, sister of Sir John NEEDHAM of
Lichborough, Northants., Gentleman Pensioner to Queen Elizabeth, he
could trace direct descent from the Wests, Lords De la Warr, King
Henry III, and John de Baliol. . ."

Does anyone have any information to substantiate--or debunk--this
claim that the Needhams have a royal descent? Thanks, Polly Zashin

[Gjest]

In a message dated 27/01/2008 00:10:35 GMT Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

2. Sir Anthony Brown, justice of the Common Pleas, born c1509; died
1567; will proved PCC, in which he states his father was Sir Wistan
Brown; married but without issue (see ODNB)

In fact Sir Anthony's will also names his mother Elizabeth one of the
daughters of William Mordante of Turveye, Beds, and even names Johane Reynolde who
was so diligent in looking after his mother in the time of her sickness.

As it seems his brother John is so much older than he is, I suppose it is
quite likely that Elizabeth may not have been Sir Wistan's only wife.

Sir Anthony's Will is very long so will take me a few days to transcribe.

Cheers,
Adrian

[Gjest]

On Jan 26, 11:23 pm, tom <[email protected]> wrote:

Hi Folks,
  I wonder if two British History Online articles one on the parish of
Ringstead, and the other on Eltham might add clarity or confusion.
Regards
Tom Dunn, Kilbrittain, Co. Cork, Ireland

Thanks, Tom - well spotted.

The VCH entry for Ringstead, Northants, confirms the position of
George Brown as son of John Brown and Audrey Vere, and gives some
other details about the division of the Vere inheritance between the
coheiresses of Henry Vere.

It errs in making Katherine, daughter of Sir Humphrey Brown, wife
first of Richard Townshend and then of William Roper. It seems this
is a very well-established and pervasive error!

Cheers, Michael

[Ed Rush]

On 26 Jan 2008, at 4:22 PM, Leo van de Pas wrote:

Do you think it serves any purpose to display your stupidity twice?

Nor does it serve my purpose to read this sort of idiocy day after
day. I'm ditching this list right now.

-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*—
Ed Rush, Boise, Idaho
[email protected]
http://edrene.us/

[Gjest]

In a message dated 1/26/2008 3:04:15 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

A current book of 50 generations of ancestors of Elvis Presley perpetuates
the problem that Elizabeth Zouche


---------------------
Well that's what you get by looking at a book of this sort to accurately
state what happened 800 years ago.



**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/n ... 3000000025
48)

[D. Spencer Hines]

The Bassanos seem to have been from village of Bassano del Grappa which is
reportedly approximately 35 miles to the northeast of Venice.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

[John Brandon]

http://books.google.com/books?id=DSoEAA ... +langhorne

[John Brandon]

Also this one ...

http://books.google.com/books?id=10IEAA ... +langhorne

[Bob Turcott]

Nat,

Interms of sources I have stated gallica, secondly heraldry existed long before the 12th century
and during the bayeux tapestry clearly shows symbols as such on shields and other elements pointing to hearldry
around year 1066 however the formal heralds to document such coats of arms was around the 11th & 12th centuries,

one can argue that heraldry did not formally exist till the 11th & 12th centuries, but many historians will argue

that heraldry did exist long before the 12th century, and I am one of those that believe it existed around the year 900 or before,

but such herldry was not documented seriously till the 11th or 12th centuries.

I am not here to argue about heraldry, if you know more about the topic specifically about crusaders then I
WILL further entertain reccomendations that point to the topic of interest.

best wishes

bob t

From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 07:41:36 -0500
To: [email protected]

In article ,
Bob Turcott wrote:

question regarding the crusader that is most definitely true. The crest I
described in the previous email is that of a Poor knights member. The Poor
Knights are better known to day as Templars. What is interesting is that
there is a good possiblity that our crest predates the official formation of
of the Templars and may Have given rise to the Sigil afixed to may Templar
sites and monument as far away as England and Scotland. The crest originated
most likely in the Burgundy Kingdom that is now part modern day france. We
faught the Moslem invaders when the serisans invaded burgundy in about the
900's. Lots of people seem to forget that Europe almost fell to the Sarisan
in that time period. The earliest root of the name I have tracked down is
Turcus judging from the root and suffix used it appears to be of Roman or
Ancient Greek origin. I am still doing research on this. I know that the
family is ancient and has given rise to family and tribal sir names in many
countries.
Once and for shure I can state that that Our family was seated in Provance
France Since at least the times of the kingdom of Burgundy and that means
they owned land and where titled there at least as lords since at minimum
the tehth century. The family where crusaders and did fight the invaders
prior to the crusades we know this by the registered heraldry of our
family(the earliest family crest on record from the tenth century).

Most readers of this forum will tell you that there is no generally
acknowledged heraldry before the twelfth century. Statements that
such-and-such arms (let alone crest, if you are using that term
correctly) originated before the late 12th century are almost always
demonstrably wrong. If you make such statements here, you should
provide information about your source.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

_________________________________________________________________
Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star power.
http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx? ... xtlink_jan

[John Foster]

As soon as you F.A.S.G. guys quit arguing with each other, those without
that after their name or enough original documents in their possession must
deal with the crumbs that you leave behind. This has been a very mean and
bitter message group.

I was doing what I could online for free. OK? Stirnet only allows 5 second
access to their family database now, so that source is lost. None of you has
supplied anything better, but persist on tromping on our meager efforts
instead of looking at the original problem. Yes, I know that the Elvis book
had bad info. I pointed out that it perpetuated something bad from earlier,
probably from one of YOUR books.

If anyone cares about an original land grant from the era of Martin Van
Buren or a couple of US Civil War discharges, I have those here.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
John C. Foster, retsof *at* austin.rr.com was retsof *at* texas.net
RETSOFtware, where QUALITY is only a slogan...

TX4.US
RETSOF.US
COKELEY.US
LOVE-M-ALL-PETCARE.TX4.US
----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 12:32 AM
Subject: Re: Zouche-Ingham

In a message dated 1/26/2008 3:04:15 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

A current book of 50 generations of ancestors of Elvis Presley
perpetuates
the problem that Elizabeth Zouche


---------------------
Well that's what you get by looking at a book of this sort to accurately
state what happened 800 years ago.



**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/n ... 3000000025
48)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.12/1163 - Release Date: 12/1/2007
12:05 PM

[Nathaniel Taylor]

In article <[email protected]>,
Bob Turcott <[email protected]> wrote:

there is a good possiblity that our crest predates the official formation
of the Templars and may Have given rise to the Sigil afixed to may Templar
sites and monument as far away as England and Scotland. The crest originated
most likely in the Burgundy Kingdom that is now part modern day france. We
faught the Moslem invaders when the serisans invaded burgundy in about the
900's. Lots of people seem to forget that Europe almost fell to the Sarisan
in that time period. The earliest root of the name I have tracked down is
Turcus judging from the root and suffix used it appears to be of Roman or
Ancient Greek origin. I am still doing research on this. I know that the
family is ancient and has given rise to family and tribal sir names in
many countries.

Once and for shure I can state that that Our family was seated in Provance
France Since at least the times of the kingdom of Burgundy and that means
they owned land and where titled there at least as lords since at minimum
the tehth century. The family where crusaders and did fight the invaders
prior to the crusades we know this by the registered heraldry of our
family (the earliest family crest on record from the tenth century).

Most readers of this forum will tell you that there is no generally
acknowledged heraldry before the twelfth century. Statements that
such-and-such arms (let alone crest, if you are using that term
correctly) originated before the late 12th century are almost always
demonstrably wrong. If you make such statements here, you should
provide information about your source.

Interms of sources I have stated gallica, secondly heraldry existed long
before the 12th century
and during the bayeux tapestry clearly shows symbols as such on shields and
other elements pointing to hearldry
around year 1066 however the formal heralds to document such coats of arms
was around the 11th & 12th centuries,
one can argue that heraldry did not formally exist till the 11th & 12th
centuries, but many historians will argue
that heraldry did exist long before the 12th century, and I am one of those
that believe it existed around the year 900 or before,
but such herldry was not documented seriously till the 11th or 12th
centuries.

I am not here to argue about heraldry, if you know more about the topic
specifically about crusaders then I
WILL further entertain reccomendations that point to the topic of interest.

I am not interested here in general documentation about
pre-twelfth-century proto-heraldry (which you are correct in saying is
subject to a certain amount of historians' disagreement, albeit to a
limited degree). What I would like to see, though, is documentation
for your very specific claims (if I understand them correctly) that:

(1) you descend from a family 'titled as lords' in Burgundy from the
tenth century or before;

(2) there is documentation of this family's 'family crest' (you mean
coat of arms, right?) from the 10th century;

(3) this armorial evidence proves that this family was fighting against
Saracens at that time, crusaders avant la lettre.

Could you provide specific evidence for each of these claims? I'm sure
I am not alone in finding them extraordinary and therefore requiring
some sort of precise evidentiary support.

The third point is especially difficult in a number of ways. While it
is certainly likely that most tenth-century lords in Burgundy were
involved from time to time in fighting against Islamic bandits (like
those based in Fraxinetum that abducted the abbot of Cluny), it would be
near impossible to support the claim that some sort of armorial device
proves such work. Further, there was essentially no such thing as
'crusaders' (by any theological or ideological definition) prior to the
crusades. Plenty of people fought against Muslims before the late
eleventh century, but few or none can be shown to have done so as a
matter of religious conscience. The fact that crusading was an
ideological innovation, coming largely out of the circle of papal
reformers in the late eleventh century, and embraced as a hybrid form of
the relatively young grassroots traditions of confessional pilgrimage in
Western Europe, is now fairly well established.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

[Gjest]

On Jan 27, 9:17 am, Bob Turcott <[email protected]> wrote:

Nat,

Interms of sources I have stated gallica, secondly heraldry existed long before the 12th century
and during the bayeux tapestry clearly shows symbols as such on shields and other elements pointing to hearldry
around year 1066 however the formal heralds to document such coats of arms was around the 11th & 12th centuries,

Well, not really. It only shows that there were designs on shields,
but it lacks any proof of consistency nor heredity. Harold does fly a
banner, but war banners long predated heraldry as you are using the
term.

one can argue that heraldry did not formally exist till the 11th & 12th centuries, but many historians will argue

A minority.

that heraldry did exist long before the 12th century, and I am one of those that believe it existed around the year 900 or before,

And I don't think any but the smallest minority of that minority would
trace it this early, as true heraldry rather than just vague
symbolism. What I mean by this last is that the tombs at Notre Dame
show lis-like emblems at the top of very old scepters that may
foreshadow the royal arms. However, when the French royals actually
started using true heraldry, it blossomed in several lines at once,
with nothing in common but the colors blue and gold, suggesting that
there was no such family association with this symbol in a true
heraldic sense at the time it was adopted by the royals.

but such herldry was not documented seriously till the 11th or 12th centuries.

A convenient argument - it existed but there is no evidence because no
one wrote it down. So hard to distinguish from the alternative, that
no one wrote it down because it didn't exist.


As to the specific origins of the arms in question, it is problematic
to assume too much. A 'Turk' on an arms could derive from a literal
turk, or it could be an example of 'canting' (punning) arms. There
are numerous English Moore families with moor's heads on their
shields, and they claim to trace from crusaders, but more often derive
from geographical features, a moor or even a mare (Latin sea, but
sometimes used for a swamp).

taf

[John Brandon]

"Black John" Needham, the progenitor of this crowd ...

http://books.google.com/books?id=TBUHAA ... ham%22&lr=

[Nathaniel Taylor]

On Jan 27, 11:47 am, Denis Beauregard <denis.b-at-
[email protected]> wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:24:15 -0800 (PST), [email protected] wrote in
soc.genealogy.medieval:

Well, not really. It only shows that there were designs on shields,
but it lacks any proof of consistency nor heredity. Harold does fly a
banner, but war banners long predated heraldry as you are using the
term.

I think you should look at the pere Anselme works and the equivalent
in England. While made after the medieval times, you can look for
families existing before year 1000 for example, and see which ones
have a crest.

Can I interject here about the use of the word 'crest'? In the English
language, the word 'crest' refers to the little added device on top of a
coat of arms, sometimes derived from an ornament worn atop a closed
great helm in tournament use from the 13th century onward. 'Coat of
arms' is the correct term for the pattern painted or tooled on someone's
shield itself. Crest is very often misused to mean 'coat of arms'.
Consult the faq for the usenet group rec.heraldry, here:

http://www.heraldica.org/faqs/heraldry.faq

See especially the section, "What is the difference between a coat of
arms and a crest?"

This is not just niggling--it is important to be specific and precise
when making claims about the early heraldry (as with the early
genealogy) of any given family or individual.

Also, look for a family claiming the same root as
another one for the mere reason both had a similar crest. I didn't
make the study but I am pretty sure you will find what you define
as "heraldry" sooner than expected, i.e. consistency and hereditary.

This argument has been made in a couple of instances, including the
chequy fields (or charges) borne by various Vermandois descendants, or
the cross patonce for some families related to the early counts of
Toulouse. But Denis's conclusion is far from self-evident. There is
not enough evidence to show that we are really dealing with inherited
charges rather than, say, coats adopted contemporaneously by people who
knew themselves to be kin, allies or affines, of others who used or
adopted similar devices. And mentioning these isolated and
controversial cases does not help to document the specific claim made
about another family, earlier in this thread.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

[John Brandon]

Note that the extracted IGI shows:

Saint Pancras Soper Lane, London
--Needham LANGFORD to Marie Bostocke, 31 May 1630

Despite the last name being spelled "LangFORD," rather than
"Langhorn," this must surely be the same person.

Also from the extracted IGI:

Puddington, co. Bedford
--Mary Langhorn, dau. of Nedham and Mary, bapt. __ Oct. 1634
--Anne Langhorne, dau. of Needham and Mary, bapt. 15 Feb. 1639

[John Brandon]

the

daughter of Needham LANGHORNE (d Aug 1673) and Mary BOSTOCK (d Jun

Note that the extracted IGI shows:

Saint Pancras Soper Lane, London
--Needham LANGFORD to Marie Bostocke, 31 May 1630

Despite the last name being spelled "LangFORD," rather than
"Langhorn," this must surely be the same person.

[John Brandon]

Note that the extracted IGI shows:

Saint Pancras Soper Lane, London
--Needham LANGFORD to Marie Bostocke, 31 May 1630

Despite the last name being spelled "LangFORD," rather than
"Langhorn," this must surely be the same person.

Oh, apparently this isn't especially new ...

http://books.google.com/books?id=A08RAA ... ton&pgis=1

[John Brandon]

http://books.google.com/books?id=A08RAA ... rne&pgis=1

[Bob Turcott]

Nat,

this is the direction I am going with this, I am certain that anyone on this forum wouldvery easily find referances
for sericen invasions.


They weathered the sericen invasions and where spared do to a resemblance to the invaders. The family is said to have been founded by a man and women of great importance from the holy land some time during the first century CE, And the name originally Turcus was acquired during Roman providence. Any way I degress, But it must be noted that the original hereldric crest's center peice is the same as that use by the Poor Knights for a sigil. I do not speak of the common twins on a horse but instead of the lamb of god bearing a blue streaming banner and adorned aloft with a gold splayed cross. Wich literally translated means bearer of the blood of God and Devine providence.


kind regards to all, I see all the responses and very interesting arguments

Bob

From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Turcus, Turcot, etc. in 10th-century Burgundy (was re: crusaders)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 13:34:06 -0500
To: [email protected]

In article ,
Bob Turcott wrote:

there is a good possiblity that our crest predates the official formation
of the Templars and may Have given rise to the Sigil afixed to may Templar
sites and monument as far away as England and Scotland. The crest originated
most likely in the Burgundy Kingdom that is now part modern day france. We
faught the Moslem invaders when the serisans invaded burgundy in about the
900's. Lots of people seem to forget that Europe almost fell to the Sarisan
in that time period. The earliest root of the name I have tracked down is
Turcus judging from the root and suffix used it appears to be of Roman or
Ancient Greek origin. I am still doing research on this. I know that the
family is ancient and has given rise to family and tribal sir names in
many countries.

Once and for shure I can state that that Our family was seated in Provance
France Since at least the times of the kingdom of Burgundy and that means
they owned land and where titled there at least as lords since at minimum
the tehth century. The family where crusaders and did fight the invaders
prior to the crusades we know this by the registered heraldry of our
family (the earliest family crest on record from the tenth century).

Most readers of this forum will tell you that there is no generally
acknowledged heraldry before the twelfth century. Statements that
such-and-such arms (let alone crest, if you are using that term
correctly) originated before the late 12th century are almost always
demonstrably wrong. If you make such statements here, you should
provide information about your source.

Interms of sources I have stated gallica, secondly heraldry existed long
before the 12th century
and during the bayeux tapestry clearly shows symbols as such on shields and
other elements pointing to hearldry
around year 1066 however the formal heralds to document such coats of arms
was around the 11th & 12th centuries,
one can argue that heraldry did not formally exist till the 11th & 12th
centuries, but many historians will argue
that heraldry did exist long before the 12th century, and I am one of those
that believe it existed around the year 900 or before,
but such herldry was not documented seriously till the 11th or 12th
centuries.

I am not here to argue about heraldry, if you know more about the topic
specifically about crusaders then I
WILL further entertain reccomendations that point to the topic of interest.

I am not interested here in general documentation about
pre-twelfth-century proto-heraldry (which you are correct in saying is
subject to a certain amount of historians' disagreement, albeit to a
limited degree). What I would like to see, though, is documentation
for your very specific claims (if I understand them correctly) that:

(1) you descend from a family 'titled as lords' in Burgundy from the
tenth century or before;

(2) there is documentation of this family's 'family crest' (you mean
coat of arms, right?) from the 10th century;

(3) this armorial evidence proves that this family was fighting against
Saracens at that time, crusaders avant la lettre.

Could you provide specific evidence for each of these claims? I'm sure
I am not alone in finding them extraordinary and therefore requiring
some sort of precise evidentiary support.

The third point is especially difficult in a number of ways. While it
is certainly likely that most tenth-century lords in Burgundy were
involved from time to time in fighting against Islamic bandits (like
those based in Fraxinetum that abducted the abbot of Cluny), it would be
near impossible to support the claim that some sort of armorial device
proves such work. Further, there was essentially no such thing as
'crusaders' (by any theological or ideological definition) prior to the
crusades. Plenty of people fought against Muslims before the late
eleventh century, but few or none can be shown to have done so as a
matter of religious conscience. The fact that crusading was an
ideological innovation, coming largely out of the circle of papal
reformers in the late eleventh century, and embraced as a hybrid form of
the relatively young grassroots traditions of confessional pilgrimage in
Western Europe, is now fairly well established.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

_________________________________________________________________
Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser!
http://biggestloser.msn.com/

[Gjest]

In a message dated 1/27/2008 9:35:23 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

I was doing what I could online for free. OK? Stirnet only allows 5 second
access to their family database now, so that source is lost. None of you has
supplied anything better, but persist on tromping on our meager efforts
instead of looking at the original problem. Yes, I know that the Elvis book
had bad info. I pointed out that it perpetuated something bad from earlier,
probably from one of YOUR books.>>>


-----------------------------------------------------------
John, Google Books, full search books is your friend. Typically full-search
books are out-of-copyright and the issues raised here have been gone over
many times in the past.

If you equate "tromping upon" with criticism the you're right that this list
is bitter. As you can see, medieval scholars delight in tromping upon each
other accompanied by gleeful cackles. Half of us are one short step from
being committed.

Now on to your last statement. I've never published anything on this topic
in any of my books, which deal strictly with some previously unpublished
primary material from the 19th century. You might be thinking of Douglas.

Will Johnson



**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
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[Gjest]

In a message dated 1/27/2008 2:04:42 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

Some hereditary features
(in addition to the gender itself) are inherited in
the genes more or less permanently joined in the Y
chromosome. Many of so-joined hereditary traits are
so-called manly heritage: eagerness, instinctiveness,
depth of interest, to hunting, building, sports and
like.>>>


----------------------------------
I'm quite skeptical of the claim that "manly" traits are passed from father
to son.
I simply do not think that there are peer-reviewed studies which support
this claim.

Will Johnson



**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
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[Gjest]

In a message dated 1/27/2008 3:50:09 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

The family is said to have been founded by a man and women of great
importance from the holy land some time during the first century CE, >>


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
In fact the Turcas family was founded by the grandson of Joseph of Arimethea.
There is a family story which relates how the family, fleeing the collapse
of Jerusalem, touched down in France first. This was of course prior to
Joseph moving on the Glastonbury at the age of about 160 or so.

At any rate, Joseph's grandson married the female child of Mary Magdalene,
who was also of course the daughter of Jesus who himself had left and gone to
Egypt where he died.

Joseph's grandson was of course named Dagovichus of Turcania while his wife
was named Burgundica Ludovinia.

Frankly Nat I'm surprised you're not fully aware of this as it's all rather
standard history.

Will Johnson



**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exer ... 0000002489

[Nathaniel Taylor]

In article <[email protected]>,
Bob Turcott <[email protected]> wrote:

What I would like to see, though, is documentation
for your very specific claims (if I understand them correctly) that:

(1) you descend from a family 'titled as lords' in Burgundy from the
tenth century or before;

(2) there is documentation of this family's 'family crest' (you mean
coat of arms, right?) from the 10th century;

(3) this armorial evidence proves that this family was fighting against
Saracens at that time, crusaders avant la lettre.

Could you provide specific evidence for each of these claims? I'm sure
I am not alone in finding them extraordinary and therefore requiring
some sort of precise evidentiary support.

The third point is especially difficult in a number of ways. While it
is certainly likely that most tenth-century lords in Burgundy were
involved from time to time in fighting against Islamic bandits (like
those based in Fraxinetum that abducted the abbot of Cluny), it would be
near impossible to support the claim that some sort of armorial device
proves such work. Further, there was essentially no such thing as
'crusaders' (by any theological or ideological definition) prior to the
crusades. Plenty of people fought against Muslims before the late
eleventh century, but few or none can be shown to have done so as a
matter of religious conscience. The fact that crusading was an
ideological innovation, coming largely out of the circle of papal
reformers in the late eleventh century, and embraced as a hybrid form of
the relatively young grassroots traditions of confessional pilgrimage in
Western Europe, is now fairly well established.

This is the direction I am going with this, I am certain that anyone on this
forum wouldvery easily find referances for sericen invasions.

They weathered the sericen invasions and where spared do to a resemblance to
the invaders. The family is said to have been founded by a man and women of
great importance from the holy land some time during the first century CE,
And the name originally Turcus was acquired during Roman providence. Any way
I degress, But it must be noted that the original hereldric crest's center
peice is the same as that use by the Poor Knights for a sigil. I do not speak
of the common twins on a horse but instead of the lamb of god bearing a blue
streaming banner and adorned aloft with a gold splayed cross. Wich literally
translated means bearer of the blood of God and Devine providence.

kind regards to all, I see all the responses and very interesting arguments.

Interesting elaboration; thank you.

1. First-century origins in Eastern empire.
2. A hereditary name (Turcus) acquired in antiquity.
3. Tenth-century swarthy physical appearance ("spared due to a
resemblance to the invaders").
4. Tenth-century crest: agnus dei carrying banner with cross.

Again, can you provide a source for any of these statements or claims?

By the way, the agnus dei seal seems to have been used by Templar
commanderies in England, and the cross is usually glossed as a St.
George's cross (either on a banner or plain atop a rod). This is not
necessarily the Jerusalem cross (or on argent); I don't know about or on
azure: seals are not tinctured.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

[John Foster]

I have found some successful google book references for other things, but
y'all don't like 19th century material either because it's too bombastic. I
wasn't complaining about anyone's book in particular. All of everyone's work
now also fall into the era of "new" books which are "insufficient" because
they rely on past misconceptions.

Some of my folks were indentured servants. One broke a chicken's leg, so he
was banished to the colonies. They didn't have much in the way of original
documents. Wars and executions in the old countries didn't help either.
Later royal or feudal sons didn't inherit, so they had to head out to find
other occupations. Heads were also rolling.

Several feuded with their neighbors, so the castles and houses were burnt
along with their libraries full of original documents --- Forrester vs.
Crichton and Johnstone vs. Maxwell come to mind. (Scottish Peerage, 1907,
Google books)

I can't use the Texas Archives for a couple of years because it is being
renovated. There's a little current microfilm out, but most of their
collection is in storage. That source is unavailable at the moment.

Another google book reference (Cokayne complete peerage) yielded that
Elizabeth Zouche, the nun in 1314 or after, died unmarried.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
John C. Foster, retsof *at* austin.rr.com was retsof *at* texas.net
RETSOFtware, where QUALITY is only a slogan...

TX4.US
RETSOF.US
COKELEY.US
LOVE-M-ALL-PETCARE.TX4.US
----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 5:59 PM
Subject: Re: Zouche-Ingham

In a message dated 1/27/2008 9:35:23 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

I was doing what I could online for free. OK? Stirnet only allows 5
second
access to their family database now, so that source is lost. None of you
has
supplied anything better, but persist on tromping on our meager efforts
instead of looking at the original problem. Yes, I know that the Elvis
book
had bad info. I pointed out that it perpetuated something bad from
earlier,
probably from one of YOUR books.


-----------------------------------------------------------
John, Google Books, full search books is your friend. Typically
full-search
books are out-of-copyright and the issues raised here have been gone over
many times in the past.

If you equate "tromping upon" with criticism the you're right that this
list
is bitter. As you can see, medieval scholars delight in tromping upon
each
other accompanied by gleeful cackles. Half of us are one short step from
being committed.

Now on to your last statement. I've never published anything on this
topic
in any of my books, which deal strictly with some previously unpublished
primary material from the 19th century. You might be thinking of
Douglas.

Will Johnson



**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exer ... 0000002489

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12/1/2007 12:05 PM

[Gjest]

In a message dated 1/27/2008 5:51:08 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

I have found some successful google book references for other things, but
y'all don't like 19th century material either because it's too bombastic. I
wasn't complaining about anyone's book in particular. All of everyone's work
now also fall into the era of "new" books which are "insufficient" because
they rely on past misconceptions.>>


----------------------------------------------------------
I think you are mischaracterizing the situation here, imho.

What we do here, is quote, cite and *evaluate* the sources. In the main,
after hearty and vigorous debate in which a few mortals are fatally wounded, we
come to a reasonable agreement or at least stopping point.

I have utter confidence that you can find a *reasonable* source for this
line. Any source called something like "Ancestors of X" has to be treated in an
extremely critical manner. The vast majority of such works are simply
sub-standard.

Will Johnson



**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exer ... 0000002489

[John Foster]

page 317

In the 9th of Edward I. Sir Oliver was summoned among other barons to attend
the King in his expedition into Wales; he died soon after, and was found to
hold this manor of the Lord Tateshale by one fee, to have free warren, the
assise, and was lord also of West Dean, in Wiltshire, and John was his on
and heir, by Elizabeth his wife, who was living in the 20th of Edward I.

[We want to pick one of the Elizabeths who was that old. See escaped nun
notice, below.]

Sir Oliver [Ingham] died on Thursday before the purification of the blessed
Virgin, in the 17th [year of the reign] of Edward III. and had, by the Lady
Elizabeth his wife, daughter of the Lord Zouch, 2 daughters, Elizabeth and
Joan.

http://books.google.com/books?id=RkwuAA ... ver+ingham

An Essay Towards a Topographical History of the County of Norfolk ... - Page
317
by Francis Blomefield, Charles Parkin - Norfolk, Eng. (County) - 1808

[How many Lord Zouch's were there at the time that Elizabeth could have been
born?]

Barons la Zouche of Ashby (1299)
Alan la Zouche, 1st Baron la Zouche of Ashby (1267-1314) (abeyant 1314)
[parents of Elizabeth -- named the nun -- did she become a nun when her
father died in 1314 or before then? She was aged 20 in 1314: Cokayne, p.
222.]

Barons Zouche (of Haryngworth) (1308)
William la Zouche, 1st Baron Zouche (1276-1352)
William la Zouche, 2nd Baron Zouche (1321-1382)

Barons Zouche of Mortimer (1323)
William la Zouche, 1st Baron Zouche of Mortimer (d. 1336)
Alan la Zouche, 2nd Baron Zouche of Mortimer (1317-1346)

[The second baron of both Haryngworth and Mortimer would have been too late
for this timeline since they didn't assume until after 1314. Are there any
other Elizabeths?]

Elizabeth Zouche, the nun, had second thoughts:

http://books.google.com/books?id=1ll6Bu ... 3NKFNQKokc

Medieval English Nunneries, C. 1275 to 1535 By Eileen Power p. 443

Wm. Salt Archaeol. Soc. Coll. I, p. 256 (case against Elizabeth la Zouche
who, with another nun, had escaped from Brewood in 1326; she was not
recovered until 1331).

------------------------------------------------------------------------
John C. Foster, retsof *at* austin.rr.com was retsof *at* texas.net
RETSOFtware, where QUALITY is only a slogan...

TX4.US
RETSOF.US
COKELEY.US
LOVE-M-ALL-PETCARE.TX4.US
----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 7:56 PM
Subject: Re: Zouche-Ingham

In a message dated 1/27/2008 5:51:08 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

I have found some successful google book references for other things, but
y'all don't like 19th century material either because it's too bombastic.
I
wasn't complaining about anyone's book in particular. All of everyone's
work
now also fall into the era of "new" books which are "insufficient"
because
they rely on past misconceptions.


----------------------------------------------------------
I think you are mischaracterizing the situation here, imho.

What we do here, is quote, cite and *evaluate* the sources. In the main,
after hearty and vigorous debate in which a few mortals are fatally
wounded, we
come to a reasonable agreement or at least stopping point.

I have utter confidence that you can find a *reasonable* source for this
line. Any source called something like "Ancestors of X" has to be treated
in an
extremely critical manner. The vast majority of such works are simply
sub-standard.

Will Johnson



**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exer ... 0000002489

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message


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Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
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Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.12/1163 - Release Date:
12/1/2007 12:05 PM

[Denis Beauregard]

Le Sun, 27 Jan 2008 13:34:06 -0500, Nathaniel Taylor
<[email protected]> écrivait dans soc.genealogy.medieval:

Could you provide specific evidence for each of these claims? I'm sure
I am not alone in finding them extraordinary and therefore requiring
some sort of precise evidentiary support.

My feeling in this case is that Turquault was a given name.

Anyway, if you check the geometry of some family names, you will
find that TURCOT are concentrated on the West coast of France,
far from area where the Muslims would attack.

http://www.geopatronyme.com/cgi-bin/car ... lient=cdip
TURCOTTE and TURQUAULT are not enough to be useful.
I tried other spellings, but found nothing.


Denis

--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
/ | Maintenant sur cédérom, début à 1770 (Version 2008)
oo oo Now on CD-ROM, beginnings to 1770 (2008 Release)

[John Foster]

proving again that nuns aren't necessarily born as such:

Medieval English Nunneries C. 1275 to 1535
By Eileen Edna Power
By Eileen Edna Power
Published 1922
The University press

one section:
a refuge for widows and occasionally for wives

http://books.google.com/books?id=tx5KAA ... lr=&pgis=1


http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/mi ... t.3.1.html
The Tragedy of Hamlet, Prince of Denmark
Shakespeare homepage | Hamlet | Act 3, Scene 1



HAMLET
Get thee to a nunnery: why wouldst thou be a
breeder of sinners? I am myself indifferent honest;
but yet I could accuse me of such things that it
were better my mother had not borne me: I am very
proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offences at
my beck than I have thoughts to put them in,
imagination to give them shape, or time to act them
in. What should such fellows as I do crawling
between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves,
all; believe none of us. Go thy ways to a nunnery.
Where's your father?

OPHELIA
At home, my lord.



------------------------------------------------------------------------
John C. Foster, retsof *at* austin.rr.com was retsof *at* texas.net
RETSOFtware, where QUALITY is only a slogan...

TX4.US
RETSOF.US
COKELEY.US
LOVE-M-ALL-PETCARE.TX4.US
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Foster" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 10:37 PM
Subject: Re: Zouche-Ingham

page 317

In the 9th of Edward I. Sir Oliver was summoned among other barons to
attend
the King in his expedition into Wales; he died soon after, and was found
to
hold this manor of the Lord Tateshale by one fee, to have free warren, the
assise, and was lord also of West Dean, in Wiltshire, and John was his on
and heir, by Elizabeth his wife, who was living in the 20th of Edward I.

[We want to pick one of the Elizabeths who was that old. See escaped nun
notice, below.]

Sir Oliver [Ingham] died on Thursday before the purification of the
blessed
Virgin, in the 17th [year of the reign] of Edward III. and had, by the
Lady
Elizabeth his wife, daughter of the Lord Zouch, 2 daughters, Elizabeth and
Joan.

http://books.google.com/books?id=RkwuAA ... ver+ingham

An Essay Towards a Topographical History of the County of Norfolk ... -
Page
317
by Francis Blomefield, Charles Parkin - Norfolk, Eng. (County) - 1808

[How many Lord Zouch's were there at the time that Elizabeth could have
been
born?]

Barons la Zouche of Ashby (1299)
Alan la Zouche, 1st Baron la Zouche of Ashby (1267-1314) (abeyant 1314)
[parents of Elizabeth -- named the nun -- did she become a nun when her
father died in 1314 or before then? She was aged 20 in 1314: Cokayne, p.
222.]

Barons Zouche (of Haryngworth) (1308)
William la Zouche, 1st Baron Zouche (1276-1352)
William la Zouche, 2nd Baron Zouche (1321-1382)

Barons Zouche of Mortimer (1323)
William la Zouche, 1st Baron Zouche of Mortimer (d. 1336)
Alan la Zouche, 2nd Baron Zouche of Mortimer (1317-1346)

[The second baron of both Haryngworth and Mortimer would have been too
late
for this timeline since they didn't assume until after 1314. Are there any
other Elizabeths?]

Elizabeth Zouche, the nun, had second thoughts:

http://books.google.com/books?id=1ll6Bu ... 3NKFNQKokc

Medieval English Nunneries, C. 1275 to 1535 By Eileen Power p. 443

Wm. Salt Archaeol. Soc. Coll. I, p. 256 (case against Elizabeth la Zouche
who, with another nun, had escaped from Brewood in 1326; she was not
recovered until 1331).

------------------------------------------------------------------------
John C. Foster, retsof *at* austin.rr.com was retsof *at* texas.net
RETSOFtware, where QUALITY is only a slogan...

TX4.US
RETSOF.US
COKELEY.US
LOVE-M-ALL-PETCARE.TX4.US
----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]
To: <[email protected]
Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 7:56 PM
Subject: Re: Zouche-Ingham



In a message dated 1/27/2008 5:51:08 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

I have found some successful google book references for other things,
but
y'all don't like 19th century material either because it's too
bombastic.
I
wasn't complaining about anyone's book in particular. All of everyone's
work
now also fall into the era of "new" books which are "insufficient"
because
they rely on past misconceptions.


----------------------------------------------------------
I think you are mischaracterizing the situation here, imho.

What we do here, is quote, cite and *evaluate* the sources. In the
main,
after hearty and vigorous debate in which a few mortals are fatally
wounded, we
come to a reasonable agreement or at least stopping point.

I have utter confidence that you can find a *reasonable* source for this
line. Any source called something like "Ancestors of X" has to be
treated
in an
extremely critical manner. The vast majority of such works are simply
sub-standard.

Will Johnson



**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exer ... 0000002489

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message


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Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.12/1163 - Release Date:
12/1/2007 12:05 PM




-------------------------------
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Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
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Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.12/1163 - Release Date:
12/1/2007 12:05 PM

[Nathaniel Taylor]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:

In fact the Turcas family was founded by the grandson of Joseph of
Arimethea.
There is a family story which relates how the family, fleeing the collapse
of Jerusalem, touched down in France first. This was of course prior to
Joseph moving on the Glastonbury at the age of about 160 or so.

At any rate, Joseph's grandson married the female child of Mary Magdalene,
who was also of course the daughter of Jesus who himself had left and gone to

Egypt where he died.

Joseph's grandson was of course named Dagovichus of Turcania while his wife
was named Burgundica Ludovinia.

Frankly Nat I'm surprised you're not fully aware of this as it's all rather
standard history.

Standard history?

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

[Peter Stewart]

[Crosspostings removed]

On Jan 25, 5:33 pm, Douglas Richardson <[email protected]> wrote:

<snip>

 The only point on which I would disagree with the account in
Encyclopedia Brittanica is that Hermann's first contracted wife, the
Emperor's daughter, is the same person as  Margaretha, the Emperor's
daughter by his fourth wife, Isabel of England.  Inasmuch as Margaretha
was an infant just born in 1237, it would be highly unlikely for her to be
contracted to marry someone "declared of age" in that very year.  The
contract for Hermann to marry the Emperor's daughter does not give the
name of Emperor's daughter (I've already posted a reference to this
document).  Inasmuch as the Emperor had an older daughter, Anna, born
of this third marriage to Blanche (or Bianca), I assume that Anna was the
Emperor's daughter that was contracted to marry Hermann of Thuringia,
not Margaretha.

This contentious point has not been supported by any further argument
frmo Richardson.

If he does deign to return to this subject, the following
considerations for his proposal above are yet to be adressed by him:

1. Frederick II was not married to Bianca Lancia by the time his
unnamed daughter was betrothed to Hermann of Thuringia in 1237.

2. He had several daughters older than Isabel's legitimate daughter
Margaret, but all were illegitimate. His particular "older daughter"
in question (who was named Constance, not Anna, then) was illegitimate
in everyone's view of things at that time, Frederick II and Bianca
Lancia included.

3. Hermann was the son of two parents who were very famous for their
piety. His mother St Elizabeth had been solemnly canonised by the pope
on Pentecost, 1 May, two years earlier in 1235. She was more widely
loved and held in greater veneration than most other saints of the
era, reputed to perform not only the usual sort of healing and
teleporting miracles but, much more rare and vastly more prestigious,
to have actually raised the dead.

4. Betrothing her only son to marry a bastard daughter of the emperor
would have created an enormous scandal in 1237. But there does not
appear to be any trace of such a reaction. Why is that, if Bianca's
daughter Constance really was the one intended to be Hermann's bride?

Peter Stewart

[wjhonson]

John thanks for the Vis London link

We see that Mary Oxenbridge, daughter of Dr Daniel, married William
Langhorne, Merchant of London and they are given four living children
in the 1633: William, Elizabeth, Mary and Katherine.

The extracted IGI for St Gabriel Fenchurch, London has as children of
*some* William Langhorne and Mary:

Mary 26 Jan 1629
William 26 Jul 1631
Daniel 20 Jan 1635
Darkis 7 Jan 1637
Thomas 25 Apr 1639

William and Mary are fairly common names, but this fits neatly with
the Vis taken in 1633 before the last three children appear. I just
wish they had Elizabeth and Katherine in there too. But I think it's
the same family.

Will Johnson