Blount-Ayala

[D. Spencer Hines]

He can't even get the Mediaeval Religious Terminology right.

The term is TRANSUBSTANTIATION of the host.

Vide infra pro sapientia.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Deus Vult

"Paul J Gans" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

In fact, the most sacred of the rituals, the transmutation [sic] of the
host, was done behind a screen, not in the open as is done today.
It was a priestly secret. It was enough for the common folks to
know that it happened.
------------------------------------------------

The L. form occurs as a current term, c 1070, in St. Peter Damian _Expos.
Canonis Missæ_ §7 ‘Quando profertur ipsum pronomen [‘Hoc’], nondum est
transsubstantiatio’. (Migne Patrologia CXLV. 883.)]

OED Second Edition
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Merriam-Webster 11th Collegiate Edition

Main Entry:tran-sub-stan-ti-a-tion
Function:noun
Date:14th century

1 : an act or instance of transubstantiating or being transubstantiated

2 : the miraculous change by which according to Roman Catholic and Eastern
Orthodox dogma the eucharistic elements at their consecration become the
body and blood of Christ while keeping only the appearances of bread and
wine.

[M.Sjostrom]

Ancestry of baroness Marie Sofie Kielmansegg is really
an interesting one. Genealogics presents it as
follows:
http://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?per ... erations=8

She was, as is well known, born of The Countess of
Darlington, the infamous "Elephant", of Maypole and
Elephant fame. A favoritesse of elector and king
George I, sovereign ruler over some countries, names
of which feel too tedious to repeat in this list, full
of current or former subjects of those countries.

Of course, Marie Sofie's descent from king Christian
III of Denmark and Norway is entirely dependent on
whether her maternal grandmother Clara Elisabeth bore
the mother, Darlington, in adultery, the father being
elector Ernest August I, Duke of Brunswick and
Luneburg, father of king George I.
If by some happenstance the real father of Darlington
were someone else, such as Clara Elisabeth's legal
husband, the count Platen-Hallermund, then there is no
descent from king Christian III.

I have been much more intrigued with baroness Marie
Sofie's probable ancestry, through her paternal
grandmother, Marie Lisbeth af Ahlefeldt. That part of
ancestry is full of regional nobility of
Sleswick-Holsatia, which for those pertinent centuries
(1400s-1600s) was part of the Danish monarchy. Some of
those ancestors feature in Scandinavian history, here
and there. There is the famous foremother, lady Ydde
Konigsmark, of Gladsaxe, who in her own right was
chatelaine of the Finnish Kastelholma fortress in
Aland islands at the time (1434) when a
proto-nationalistic revolt in Sweden practically
separated that country from the union of Kalmar.

I said "probable", because there still exists a
lingering suspicion that Countess of Darlington,
married with baron Johan Adolf af Kielmansegg, would
have been mistress (and not only a sister) of king
George I.
As far as I am aware, it has been somewhat long
believed by researchers that Darlington's favorite
position in court was because of being half-sister of
the monarch, and not of any sexual relationship.
However, were Marie Sofie's sire someone else than her
legal father baron Johan Adolf af Kielmansegg, then
there would not be that descent from
Sleswick-Holsatia.

To best of my knowledge, Marie Sofie Kielmansegg never
herself became any sort of Countess. Instead she was
born as a legal daughter of a baron, thus technically
a baroness. Her husband's viscountly title then made
her Viscountess by marriage.

By the way, any addition to the ancestry of Marie
Sofie Kielmansegg, would be appreciated by Leo van de
Pas, who is interested in building Genealogics yet to
more coverage about ancestral lineages of those
people.

Marie Sofie Kielmansegg, viscountess Howe, happens to
be an ancestress of a certain late Diana Spencer,
still today much talked about in royalty watchers'
circles, and mother of prince William of Wales,
current second heir apparent to a few local
monarchies.

by the way, what means the term "GARD" ?



____________________________________________________________________________________
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[Gjest]

On Jan 8, 10:27 pm, "M.Sjostrom" <[email protected]> wrote:


(snip)

by the way, what means the term "GARD" ?

Gateway Ancestor of Royal Descent.

MA-R

[M.Sjostrom]

Ancestry of baroness Marie Sofie Kielmansegg is really
an interesting one. Genealogics presents it as
follows:
http://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?per ... erations=8

She was, as is well known, born of The Countess of
Darlington, the infamous "Elephant", of Maypole and
Elephant fame. A favoritesse of elector and king
George I, sovereign ruler over some countries, names
of which feel too tedious to repeat in this list, full
of current or former subjects of those countries.

Of course, Marie Sofie's descent from king Christian
III of Denmark and Norway is entirely dependent on
whether her maternal grandmother Clara Elisabeth bore
the mother, Darlington, in adultery, the father being
elector Ernest August I, Duke of Brunswick and
Luneburg, father of king George I.
If by some happenstance the real father of Darlington
were someone else, such as Clara Elisabeth's legal
husband, the count Platen-Hallermund, then there is no
descent from king Christian III.

I have been much more intrigued with baroness Marie
Sofie's probable ancestry, through her paternal
grandmother, Marie Lisbeth af Ahlefeldt. That part of
ancestry is full of regional nobility of
Sleswick-Holsatia, which for those pertinent centuries
(1400s-1600s) was part of the Danish monarchy. Some of
those ancestors feature in Scandinavian history, here
and there. There is the famous foremother, lady Ydde
Konigsmark, of Gladsaxe, who in her own right was
chatelaine of the Finnish Kastelholma fortress in
Aland islands at the time (1434) when a
proto-nationalistic revolt in Sweden practically
separated that country from the union of Kalmar.

I said "probable", because there still exists a
lingering suspicion that Countess of Darlington,
married with baron Johan Adolf af Kielmansegg, would
have been mistress (and not only a sister) of king
George I.
As far as I am aware, it has been somewhat long
believed by researchers that Darlington's favorite
position in court was because of being half-sister of
the monarch, and not of any sexual relationship.
However, were Marie Sofie's sire someone else than her
legal father baron Johan Adolf af Kielmansegg, then
there would not be that descent from
Sleswick-Holsatia.

To best of my knowledge, Marie Sofie Kielmansegg never
herself became any sort of Countess. Instead she was
born as a legal daughter of a baron, thus technically
a baroness. Her husband's viscountly title then made
her Viscountess by marriage.

By the way, any addition to the ancestry of Marie
Sofie Kielmansegg, would be appreciated by Leo van de
Pas, who is interested in building Genealogics yet to
more coverage about ancestral lineages of those
people.

Marie Sofie Kielmansegg, viscountess Howe, happens to
be an ancestress of a certain late Diana Spencer,
still today much talked about in royalty watchers'
circles, and mother of prince William of Wales,
current second heir apparent to a few local
monarchies.

by the way, what means the term "GARD" ?



____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch ... y=shopping

[Gjest]

On Jan 8, 11:07 pm, "M.Sjostrom" <[email protected]> wrote:

It looks to me that the intriguing Joseph Howe, of
Virginia, is put to nexus position of a variety of
claims, desperate to have some sort of royal ancestry
through him.

It wouldn't be the first time, and won't be the last.

If these claims are bogus, products of inventive
genealogy,

They certainly seem to be bogus.

Paul Theroff's 'Descendants of James I' here:

http://www.angelfire.com/realm/gotha/Part28.htm

shows four children for General Emanuel Scrope Howe and Ruperta,
Prince Rupert's illegitimate daughter:

1. Sophia 1698
2. William 1700
3. Emanuel 1702
3. James 1704

Only William is shown as having married and had issue.

General Howe has a biography in ODNB (by Stuart Handley). According
to this article, he died in 1709, and left a will naming Sophia,
William and Emanuel.

It would therefore seem that James had died by 1709.

This would mean that he could not have fathered Joseph Howe of
Virginia.

MA-R

[M.Sjostrom]

It looks to me that the intriguing Joseph Howe, of
Virginia, is put to nexus position of a variety of
claims, desperate to have some sort of royal ancestry
through him.

The adopted descent through Kielmansegg and
Darlington, obviously, attempts to "collect" on the
possibility of illegitimate ancestry through elector
Ernest August I - whose close ancestry however does
not include British monarchs. There are lots of German
princelings, and some roots in kings of Norway,
Denmark, Poland, and some Holy Roman Emperors.

The other claimed descent, through Rupert, Prince
Palatine, obviously tries to make it yet better,
"better" in viewpoint of a former subject of England -
to "collect" on the possibility of illegitimate
descent through Rupert, well known in English history,
and son of Lady Elizabeth Stuart, eldest daughter of
king James VI and I.

If these claims are bogus, products of inventive
genealogy, then the inventive mind behind such must
have been keen on in the Palatine family. Not an
unusual thing, at the least (genealogy of that
Palatine family has been daily hay to British
intriguers, the Act of Settlement in early 1700s going
rounds within the very family). Look, there is an
attempt to have Sophia Palatine's husband Ernest
August as forefather in one way, and Sophie's brother
Rupert as forefather in another way.

I must say there could be a tad more goodwill and
assumption of good faith, were these to revolve around
a less-well-known family, some family which is not
known to everyone from elementary British history
books.




____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

[YvonnePurdy]

I wrote, (with reference to the third marriage of Avis Davenport, formerly Vau(w)drey, nee Worsley, to John
Shakerley):

"I cannot find John Shakerley's 1596 will listed on the Cheshire Wills site", but with the arrival of a CD,
Lancashire & Cheshire Wills and Inventories Volumes I-III, there is the following:

John Shakerley of Northenden, 1596 (Will)

October 25 1596. John Shakerley of the .... Northerden, gent. To be buried at Northerden. He mentions,
"Avis my wife," " my son William Davenport," "Mr. James son and heir to Richard Massey, Esq.," "my son Rowland
Shakerley alias Ashley," "my son Mr. Vaudrey." "Mr. Robert Pilkington... Shakerley, Esq., and Avys my wife
and .... and Richard Warburton, gent., to be overseers." Inventory dated 1596.

I have also received some details regarding Thomas Tutchet (Tochett), of Nether Whitley, who married Katherine
Worsley, legitimate daughter of Ralph Worsley, that they had no legitimate issue, but that Thomas Tochett had
three illegitimate children, son Robert Tochett and daughters Joan and Margaret. The mother of Robert
Tochett seems to have been Jane, who married Humphrey Crosbie. From the deposition of Jane Crosbie's will of
Over Whitley, in 1608, she bequeathed to Robert Tochet Gent., her son, one silver bowl gilt.

Yvonne Purdy (nee Sherlock)

[Gjest]

I think the main clue and mar in the idea that Joseph Howe was a brother to
the Viscounts would be what happened when William the 5th Viscount died?
What happened to his title and his estates.

Joseph, if fourth son, would have been his heir-male I believe and it isn't
as if he kept a low profile.



**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
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[Gjest]

I believe I have cleaned up the "Joseph Howe" entries scattered around.
We still need a good source stating directly that when William the 5th
Viscount died, that he had no male issue and no surviving brothers.



**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exer ... 0000002489

[Gjest]

On Jan 9, 2:34 pm, [email protected] wrote:

I believe I have cleaned up the "Joseph Howe" entries scattered  around.
We still need a good source stating directly that when William the 5th  
Viscount died, that he had no male issue and no surviving  brothers.

This site still seems to refer to him as Lord Howe's brother - perhaps
the tidy-up hasn't downloaded yet, or whatever:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_Joseph_Howe

A reasonable reference would be: Debrett's Peerage, London, 1820, pp
526-528

"General Sir William Howe, 5th Viscount... died 1814, without issue,
when the titles of Viscount Howe and Baron Clenawly, co Fermanagh,
became extinct" (p 528)

i.e. the male issue of the first Viscount became extinct in 1814.
Full details of his issue in remainder to those titles is provided in
the article, and no Joseph Howe is included.

MA-R

[Gjest]

In a message dated 1/8/2008 10:40:26 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

A reasonable reference would be: Debrett's Peerage, London, 1820, pp
526-528

"General Sir William Howe, 5th Viscount... died 1814, without issue,
when the titles of Viscount Howe and Baron Clenawly, co Fermanagh,
became extinct" (p 528)>>
----------------
Done

Will



**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
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[Gjest]

In a message dated 1/8/2008 10:40:26 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:


This site still seems to refer to him as Lord Howe's brother - perhaps
the tidy-up hasn't downloaded yet, or whatever:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_Joseph_Howe


--------------
First click refresh page.
Second are you referring to the quote from the book?
If so that is acceptable, because it is, in fact, what the author states.
The problem being that the quote is only *part* of what the author states,
because he goes on to state that he might be Lord Howe's first cousin as well.

Will Johnson



**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exer ... 0000002489

[Gjest]

I note that, in addition to Hoge Tyler hypothesis (here reported as
cousin of Lord Howe), _A History of Middle New River Settlements_
reports a tradition that Joseph Howe came from a How family long
resident in Massachusetts.

http://books.google.com/books?id=h0zq6F5IUHEC&pg=PA415

taf

[Gjest]

On Jan 9, 5:50 pm, [email protected] wrote:

In a message dated 1/8/2008 10:40:26 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,  

[email protected] writes:

This  site still seems to refer to him as Lord Howe's brother - perhaps
the  tidy-up hasn't downloaded yet, or  whatever:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_Joseph_Howe

--------------
First click refresh page.
Second are you referring to the quote from the book?
If so that is acceptable, because it is, in fact, what the author  states.  
The problem being that the quote is only *part* of what the author  states,
because he goes on to state that he might be Lord Howe's first cousin as  well.

But he cannot have been a first cousin either, because Debretts
details the family of the 1st Viscount (the grandfather of the 3rd,
4th and 5th viscounts) AND the family of the 2nd Viscount (their
father).

If Joseph Howe had been a first cousin his family would have been in
the line of succession to the viscountcy, and thus it would not have
become extinct in 1814.

MA-R

[Tony Hoskins]

I have it.

AdrianBnjmBurke <[email protected]> 01/09/08 09:45AM

Does anyone have access to this book?

CLARK, G. T. (1886). Limbus patrum Morganiæ et Glamorganiæ. London,
Wyman & Sons.

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the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

[Gjest]

In a message dated 1/9/2008 5:31:27 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

Regarding his holding the lands of Amounderness before 1166(Lib. Nig.)
that too is fairly well documented, the exact wording I will have to
dig thru my boxes, pre Lancaster-Reinfrid discussion of two years ago,
but you can check (Lib. Nig.) stands for Liber Niger Seuccarii-Black
Book ..., and as I understand it is the records of the exchequer of
the time, more or less like pipe rolls.>>


---------------------------------------------------------
The problem is Emmett, that you are citing it as fact without having the
actual citation and quotation to back it up. That makes me suspicious that the
citation will really hold up. I'll wait until you can find that document
before I change my age range since really an awful lot of things hinge on this
very elusive fact.

Thanks
Will



**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
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[Gjest]

In a message dated 1/7/2008 5:57:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Jwc1870
writes:

Dear John Ravilious and others,
Interesting that the
Brus family`s connections to this group appear to be through a branch of the
Clare family and through thev Scots` royal house.. The Earl of Buchan and
Lord Roos were both descended from Maud St Liz, Buchan through her 2nd husband
Saher de Quincy, Lord Roos through Robert fitz Richard (de Clare). also
interesting that the groom descended from Maud`s sister Alice, wife of Ralph V de
Toeni.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA




____________________________________
Start the year off right. _Easy ways to stay in shape_
(http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exer ... 0000002489) in the new year.



Dear John Ravilious and others,
I made a mistake in
the above post. Alice , wife of Ralph V de Toeni was the Aunt, not sister
of Maud St Liz being the daughter of Waltheof II , Earl of Huntingdon and
Northumberland. Maud also had a niece ________ St Liz ( possibly Isabel or
Alice), daughter of her brother Simon II by Isabel Beaumont AR7 line 84
generation 27 wife of William Mauduit and mother of Robert Mauduit who married
Isabel Basset. They were the parents of William Mauduit who married Alice de
Newburgh (or Beaumont) daughter of Waleran de Newburgh, 4th Earl of Warwick. Their
daughter Isabel Mauduit was the mother of William Beauchamp, 9th Earl of
Warwick.
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA




____________________________________
Start the year off right. _Easy ways to stay in shape_
(http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exer ... 0000002489) in the new year.



**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exer ... 0000002489

[Greg Vaut]

Have you tried Simon R. Doubleday, "The Lara Family: Crown and Nobility
in Medieval Spain", Harvard Univ. Press, Cambridge, 2001?

Leo van de Pas wrote:

Dear Todd,

Any chance of spelling out this family a little more?
Leo van de Pas


----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <[email protected]
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 9:09 AM
Subject: Lara family


I just stumbled across a doctoral thesis on the Laras during the 11th
to 13th centuries, which includes a detailed discussion of the various
sources and historical tradition regarding the origins of the family.
The author spends many pages talking about the modern theories
regarding the family, and concludes that the first counts, Pedro and
Rodrigo Gonzalez, were maternal grandchildren of Nuno Alvarez by Maria
Gutierrez, a descendant of Alfonso Betotez. He traces the paternal
line to a count Munio Gonzalez, who he identifies as paternal uncle of
count Gonzalo Salvadorez, and seems favorably disposed to a descent
from Count Garcia Fernandez of Castille.

Sánchez de Mora, Antonio. La Nobleza Castellana en la Plena Edad
Media: El Linaje de Lara (ss. XI-XII), doctoral dissertation,
Universidad de Sevilla, 2003.
http://fondosdigitales.us.es/thesis/thesis_view?oid=271

He also includes a detailed discussion of the children and claimed
children of each generation.

taf


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-------------------------------
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[Roger LeBlanc]

Thanks for the notice Stewart. I had checked earlier this morning (just
in case) before the new additions, and am glad to know your work continues.

Roger LeBlanc

Stewart Baldwin wrote:

New pages have just been uploaded to the Henry Project for the following
individuals:

Roger, count of Maine
Rothilde his wife
Hugues I, count of Maine
Hugues II, count of Maine
Hugues III, count of Maine
Hugues IV, count of Maine
Herbert I, count of Maine
Landry de Baugency
Landry/Lancelin de Baugency
Jean de La Flèche
Paula his wife

A revised page has been uploaded for Hélie de La Flèche.

The URL for the index page is:

http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproj ... /index.htm

As usual, comments are welcome.

Stewart Baldwin

[D. Spencer Hines]

Indeed...

I know many people who say _potahto_.

DSH

"erilar" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

In article <[email protected]>,
"John Briggs" <[email protected]> wrote:


Except that nobody actually says potahto, of course.
--

Oh, beware of that word "nobody". Like "everyone", "never", and "always",
it has a tendency to turn around and bite!!

--
Mary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar)

You can't reason with someone whose first line of argument is that reason
doesn't count. --Isaac Asimov

Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo

[John Foster]

So what? The copyright has probably run out and the sources are freely
accessible. If there were that much more being discovered about the Dark
Ages, they wouldn't still be dark.

Even modern U.S. censuses must remain private for 72 years. The 1940 census
will not be released until April 1, 2012.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
John C. Foster, retsof *at* austin.rr.com was retsof *at* texas.net
RETSOFtware, where QUALITY is only a slogan...

TX4.US
RETSOF.US
COKELEY.US
LOVE-M-ALL-PETCARE.TX4.US
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Swain" <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: alt.history.british, sci.military.naval,
soc.culture.irish,soc.culture.scottish, soc.genealogy.medieval,
soc.history.medieval
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 4:51 PM
Subject: Re: The Dark Ages


D. Spencer Hines wrote:

1915 W. Leaf Homer & Hist. i. 34 The answer to the question lies somewhere
in what, following Professor Murray, I have called the Dark Ages, the
three
or four hundred years which precede the first glimmer of authentic history
in the eighth century. 1935 (title) Map of Britain in the Dark Ages
(Ordnance Survey) [p. 5] This map covers that portion of English and Welsh
history which falls between the years 410 a.d. and 871 a.d. 1943 F. M.
Stenton Anglo-Saxon Eng. viii. 267 No other king of the Dark Ages ever set
himself, like Alfred, to explore whatever in the literature of Christian
antiquity might explain the problems of fate and free will.

1950 H. L. Lorimer Homer & Monuments viii. 461 Even in the Dark Age there
must have been some degree of communication, as the common features of
proto-Geometric culture show. 1952 Childe & Simpson Anc. Monuments
Scotland
6 The ‘Dark Ages’...Approximately fifth–eleventh centuries a.d. 1953 K.
H.
Jackson Lang. & Hist. Early Brit. 377 Dark-Age Latin. 1957 G. E. Wright
Bibl. Archaeol. iv. 56/2 Shortly before 1700 b.c. a dark age settled over
Egypt which was to last some one hundred and fifty years. This was caused
by the invasion of Asiatics whom the Egyptians called Hyksos.

OED, Second Edition
-------------------------------

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

I note that all the sources you cite are from 50 to 90 years out of date.

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--
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.12/1163 - Release Date: 12/1/2007
12:05 PM

[Tony Hoskins]

"There are quite few agnatic Bourbon lineages around, including the
Spanish royal line..."

The Spanish "Bourbons" would be unlikely to want too much light cast on
their Y chromosome DNA!



Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
Sonoma County Archivist
Sonoma County History and Genealogy Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

[Tony Hoskins]

In re: shaky Spanish Bourbon Y-DNA, Wikiepdia says this:

"There has been considerable speculation that some or all of Isabella's
children were not fathered by Francis, along with rumours that he was
homosexual or had physical impediments. DNA tests would possibly solve
nothing, as Francis and his wife were first cousins both through their
fathers (who were brothers) and their mothers (who were sisters). DNA
tests may show doses of genes neither in Isabella's nor in Francis' DNA,
and if such are immense enough, a presumption would exist that such come
from other men than Francis."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_of_Asis_de_Bourbon

[Tony Hoskins]

"Would tests confirm that Louis Alphonse and Juan Carlos have so-called
Puig Y chromosome DNA...?"

More likely than Bourbon - which *also* may in reality have been
"Bourbon". On it goes!

The Spanish Bourbons are chain of weak putative paternities.

Tony





Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
Sonoma County Archivist
Sonoma County History and Genealogy Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

[Denis Beauregard]

Le Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:29:57 -0800, "Tony Hoskins"
<[email protected]> écrivait dans soc.genealogy.medieval:

In re: shaky Spanish Bourbon Y-DNA, Wikiepdia says this:

"There has been considerable speculation that some or all of Isabella's
children were not fathered by Francis, along with rumours that he was
homosexual or had physical impediments. DNA tests would possibly solve
nothing, as Francis and his wife were first cousins both through their
fathers (who were brothers) and their mothers (who were sisters). DNA
tests may show doses of genes neither in Isabella's nor in Francis' DNA,
and if such are immense enough, a presumption would exist that such come
from other men than Francis."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_of_Asis_de_Bourbon

And how can this changes the Y chromosom ???


Denis

--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
/ | Maintenant sur cédérom, début à 1770 (Version 2008)
oo oo Now on CD-ROM, beginnings to 1770 (2008 Release)

[D. Spencer Hines]

Mediaeval Historians do NOT want the General Public thinking of them as
"DARK AGE HISTORIANS"...

For All The Obvious Reasons...

Ergo Irrelevant...

That's The Bottom Line.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas
----------------------------------------------------

The amusing thing is that Mediaeval Historians, like many other historians,
just need to sell books, get grants and carve out careers for themselves.

SO, there is an imperative to Reinvent The Wheel, Junk Older Terminology and
hype the need for CHANGE -- just like Barak Obama.

Fold in the "Inside The Profession" Fierce Competition for Choice Academic
Positions and we have a Real Three-Ring Circus with Dog & Pony Shows Galore,
as well as "New Look" Costuming and Emphases On "NEW Historiographical
Perspectives.

BUT since the Mediaeval Historians are often simply plowing a new furrow
through a study of a VERY limited set of sources -- although they make a
Great Show of discovering old, moldy documents in Local Archives, which they
often try to convince the gullible are of GROUNDBREAKING IMPORTANCE...

The entire exercise is often simply a Grand Shibai...

Full of Sound & Fury -- Signifying Nothing...

BUT...

It's...

ENTERTAINING...

For the Suave Cognoscenti Audience...

Who Can Break The Code.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Exitus Acta Probat

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

[D. Spencer Hines]

"It was generally believed that the study of medieval history had no utility
except possibly to remind men of their stupidities."

"Said Voltaire in his _Essay on Customs_: 'It is necessary to know the
history of that age only in order to scorn it.'"

'To be learned about [the Middle Ages],' Bolingbroke wrote in 1735, 'is a
ridiculous affectation in any man who means to be useful to the present age.
Down to this aera let us read history: from this aera, and down to our own
time, let us study it.'"

Franklin LeVan Baumer

_Main Currents of Western Thought: Readings in Western European Intellectual
History from the Middle Ages to the Present_; New Haven and London: Yale
University Press; Fourth Edition [1978]; ISBN 0-300-02162-3; p. 19
-----------------------------------------------------

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

[Gjest]

In a message dated 1/11/2008 9:29:09 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

Now, you have mentioned the unusual name of Erneburgha and I have
found that one Nicholas Vipont left a widow, Ermegerna (1314-15).
Could one be variation of the other?>>
------------
Looks possible. I have to leave it to the orthographers if "b" can morph
into "g".
Just the other night as I was driving home for work I though gee... could
"Doda" which I've been pronouncing "DOE-Duh" be really pronounced "DOO-duh" ? If
so it sounds like a lot closer to "Juda" and then "Judith" or Goodith, etc.
I wonder...

Of course it was 1 in the morning.





**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exer ... 0000002489

[Gjest]

Brice~

The case for identifying Robert Cole's mother as Jane Mainwaring, a daughter
of Oliver Mainwaring (d. testate 1631), gent., of Windleshaw & Margaret
Torbock, was a result of explaining the relation between Robert Cole and Benjamin
Gill.

My tentative reconstruction of the Cole family involved in this
identification is:

1. Robert Cole of Lampton (in Heston), who seems to have died 1614-15.
m. (1) sister of George Evelyn (d. testate 1603), Esq., of Wootton,
Surrey.
Child (by ------ Evelyn):
a. George Cole, Gent., of Cliffords Inn (son & heir). Admitted to
Middle Temple 20 Feb. 1579.

m. (2) 14 Sep. 1559 Harrow-on-the-Hill to Alice Norwood (who was
repeatedly convicted for recusancy as late as 1616). She was deceased by 1625.
Children (by Alice Norwood):
b. Thomas Cole of Lampton (in Heston), who held his mother's property
jointly with his brother Robert in 1625.
Father of Thomas Cole who was christened 15 Dec. 1594 at Lampton,
and who married Jane*, & resided in Lampton.
Thomas & Jane~parents of Robert Cole of Maryland.
c. Robert Cole.


Robert Cole demanded letters of administration upon Benjamin Gill's estate
"as being next of Kinne," as shown in Archives of Maryland 41:90. This
description is broad enough as to be almost useless. But two other descriptions
that appear in the court proceedings help narrow the scope of the kinship. In
1656 Robert Cole "made it appeare to this Court that he is near alyed to the
Said Gill" (see Archives of Maryland 10:450). Mrs. Jane Clarke (wife of my
ancestor Robert Clarke), stated in 1658 that "Mr Benjamin Gill late of this
Prouince Deceased dyed att her howse att Portoback the 22th of Nouembr in the
yeare 1655" (see Archives of Maryland 41:169). She further stated that "Hee
[Gill] did bequeath to his Cozen Robert Cole fiue hundd pownds of Tob" (see
Archives of Maryland 41:173). The descriptions "near alyed" and "his Cozen"
are to two to which I'm referring. "near alyed" I take to mean related by
marriage, and "his Cozen" I take to mean his nephew. Combined I read them as
nephew by marriage.

If Cole's mother was a Gill or Gill's wife was a Cole, then Cole would have
been more than merely "near alyed." That leaves a possible family connection
between Cole's mother and Gill's wife. This is supported by the appearance
on the same Middlesex recusant roll dated 1622-23 of Benjamin Gill, chandler,
of St. Andrew Holborn, Middlesex, and Mary, his wife, with Jane, wife of
Thomas Cole, yeoman, of Heston, Middlesex (see Jacobean Recusant Rolls For
Middlesex: An Abstract in English, by John J. LaRocca, S.J., Catholic Record
Society, 1997, pp. 134-135).

So we have Mary (Mainwaring) Gill and Jane (----------) Cole, both convicted
recusants, appearing together, and later Robert Cole, son of Jane, being a
nephew by marriage to Mary's husband Benjamin Gill. Jane would also be
considered a likely family name by Margaret (Torbock) Mainwaring, since she was the
legatee of 100 marks in the will of her grandmother Jane Gerrard. This
would also place Robert Cole within the kinship network of Thomas Gerrard, Esq.,
of Maryland, within whose manor in St. Mary's County Cole was a freeholder.



**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exer ... 0000002489

[Nathaniel Taylor]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:

The pretender claims an ascent into this line, although not to the *bottom*
of it, so he could not claim to be "Lord of Man". His claim *I think* is
that "King of Man" and "Lord of Man" are two separate claims. That the
title
"King of Man" was not disposed of, it just wasn't ever re-claimed after the
last "King". That is, it went into abeyance.

His odd claim that by merely *stating* in the London Gazette that he was
claiming this title, is sufficient to have legally received the right to do
so,
is in my opinion unfounded so far. I've never heard of it of this ability,
maybe someone else has. And MAR has certainly proven, that even *if* there
is
a left-over title King of Man to be claimed, this man isn't the heir-general
who would gain the right to do that.

See my reply to Foster. The strategem of a legal property claim posted
in the _London Gazette_ has been used previously by the sellers of
nonexistent or poorly-provenanced English manorial titles. This has
been much discussed over the past few years on rec.heraldry. Howe
didn't invent the idea; it seems he either simply copied this ruse from
such precedents which he researched himself, or (more likely) went into
collusion with someone who had used this ruse before. The fiscal motive
(selling the title itself or selling honors derived from the use of the
claimed title) seems clear and is common both to Howe's strategem and to
the precedents he is emulating.

Again, there has been considerable traffic on Howe and his claims, and
their apparent fiscal motive, on rec.heraldry over the last few weeks,
much of it summarized (with colorful commentary) by our very own
contributor Michael Andrews-Reading, who has a professional background
in the financial investigation of fraud.

I have been toying with the idea of writing an article on the Howe claim
episode--especially its implications for American interest in pre-modern
genealogy generally, and how those with such an interest are perceived
both within and outside the United States.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

[Gjest]

The pretender claims an ascent into this line, although not to the *bottom*
of it, so he could not claim to be "Lord of Man". His claim *I think* is
that "King of Man" and "Lord of Man" are two separate claims. That the title
"King of Man" was not disposed of, it just wasn't ever re-claimed after the
last "King". That is, it went into abeyance.

His odd claim that by merely *stating* in the London Gazette that he was
claiming this title, is sufficient to have legally received the right to do so,
is in my opinion unfounded so far. I've never heard of it of this ability,
maybe someone else has. And MAR has certainly proven, that even *if* there is
a left-over title King of Man to be claimed, this man isn't the heir-general
who would gain the right to do that.

The final problem would be to show, with reliable sources, that he does
ascend to this particular family. So far I haven't seen that. We shown parts of
the ascent from reliable sources, but not the whole thing.

Will Johnson



**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exer ... 0000002489

[D. Spencer Hines]

Don't just toy with it...

Write It.

DSH

"Nathaniel Taylor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

I have been toying with the idea of writing an article on the Howe claim
episode--especially its implications for American interest in pre-modern
genealogy generally, and how those with such an interest are perceived
both within and outside the United States.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

[Spacy Bickerson]

"a.spencer3" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

"D. Spencer Hines" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
And also author of _The Steel Bonnets, The Story of the Anglo-Scottish
Border Reivers_.

Requiescat In Pace.


I fully understand Hines' attachment to Flashman.

A kindred soul without the humour & sex.

Surreyman

I discovered Flashman when the first book came out in paperback and have

followed the saga ever since.
Recently acquired a new edition of McAuslan Complete, which is still funny
after all these years. My ancestors came from Glasgow and found his use of
the Glaswegian dialect fascinating - though I have never actually heard it
spoken and I am at least three generations removed from that city.

Had hoped that he would flesh out some of the adventures GMF had hinted at,
such as riding a hot-air balloon in South America and his service in the
American civil war where he was a staff officer on both sides!

Then there is Flashy's final adventure, his demise in combat in France in
1915!! Always wondered how that came about.

[Josiah Jenkins]

On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:59:38 -0500, "Spacy Bickerson"
<[email protected]> wrote:

snip

. . . My ancestors came from Glasgow and found his use of the
Glaswegian dialect fascinating - though I have never actually heard it
spoken and I am at least three generations removed from that city.

No idea how these relate to Fraser's attempts but I can asure you that
these two sound clips are genuine Glasgow accents.

Two ladies in conversation : http://tinyurl.com/2pozo6

Paul Jamieson who does loads of TV and radio voiceovers :
http://www.svmk.co.uk/all_male.php

-- jjj

[D. Spencer Hines]

An excellent obituary in The New York Times, filled with detail -- and
better than that in The Times.

For Example:

"In 1960, Sir Edmund led a highly publicized but unsuccessful search for the
Abominable Snowman. And in 1985, accompanied by Neil Armstrong, the first
man on the moon, Sir Edmund flew a twin-engine ski plane over the Arctic and
landed at the North Pole. He thus became the first to stand at both poles
and on the summit of Everest."

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas
-------------------------------------------

January 11, 2008

Edmund Hillary, First on Everest, Dies at 88

By ROBERT D. McFADDEN
The New York Times

Sir Edmund Hillary, the lanky New Zealand mountaineer and explorer who with
Tenzing Norgay, his Sherpa guide, won worldwide acclaim in 1953 by becoming
the first to scale the 29,035-foot summit of Mount Everest, the world’s
tallest peak, died Friday in Auckland, New Zealand. He was 88.

His death was announced by Prime Minister Helen Clark of New Zealand.

In the annals of great heroic exploits, the conquest of Mount Everest by Sir
Edmund and Mr. Norgay ranks with the first trek to the South Pole by Roald
Amundsen in 1911 and the first solo nonstop trans-Atlantic flight by Charles
A. Lindbergh in 1927.

By 1953, nearly a century after British surveyors had established that the
Himalayan peak on the Nepal-Tibet border was the highest point on earth,
many climbers considered the mountain all but unconquerable. The summit was
5 ½ vertical miles above sea level (up where today’s jets fly): an
otherworldly place of yawning crevasses and 100-mile-an-hour winds, of
perpetual cold and air so thin that the human brain and lungs do not
function properly in it.

Numerous Everest expeditions had failed, and dozens of experienced
mountaineers, including many Sherpas, the Nepalese people famed as climbers,
had been killed — buried in avalanches or lost and frozen in sudden storms
that roared over the dizzying escarpments. One who vanished, in 1924, was
George Leigh Mallory, known for snapping when asked why climb Everest,
“Because it is there!” His body was found in the ice 75 years later, in
1999, about 2,000 feet below the summit.

Sir Edmund and Mr. Norgay were part of a Royal Geographical Society-Alpine
Club expedition led by Col. Henry Cecil John Hunt — a siege group that
included a dozen climbers, 35 Sherpa guides and 350 porters carrying 18 tons
of food and equipment. Their route was the treacherous South Col, facing
Nepal.

After a series of climbs by coordinated teams to establish ever-higher camps
on the icy slopes and perilous rock ledges, Tom Bourdillon and Dr. Charles
Evans were the first team to attempt the summit, but gave up at 28,720
feet — 315 feet from the top — beaten back by exhaustion, a storm that
shrouded them in ice and oxygen-tank failures.

Sir Edmund, then 33, and Mr. Norgay, 39, made the next assault. They first
established a bivouac at 27,900 feet on a rock ledge six feet wide and
canted at a 30-degree angle. There, holding their tent against a howling
gale as the temperatures plunged to 30 degrees below zero, they spent the
night.

At 6:30 a.m. on May 29, 1953, cheered by clearing skies, they began the
final attack. Carrying enough oxygen for seven hours and counting on picking
up two partly filled tanks left by Dr. Evans and Mr. Bourdillon, they moved
out. Roped together, cutting toe-holds with their ice axes, first one man
leading and then the other, they inched up a steep, knife-edged ridge
southeast of the summit.

Halfway up, Sir Edmund recalled in “High Adventure” (1955, Oxford University
Press), they discovered soft snow under them. “Immediately I realized we
were on dangerous ground,” he said. “Suddenly, with a dull breaking noise,
an area of crust all around me about six feet in diameter broke off.” He
slid backward 20 or 30 feet before regaining a hold. “It was a nasty shock,”
he said. “I could look down 10,000 feet between my legs.”

Farther up, they encountered what was later named the Hillary Step — a sheer
face of rock and ice 40 feet high that Sir Edmund called “the most
formidable obstacle on the ridge.” But they found a vertical crack and
managed to climb it by bracing feet against one side and backs against the
other. The last few yards to the summit were relatively easy.

“As I chipped steps, I wondered how long we could keep it up,” Sir Edmund
said. “Then I realized that the ridge, instead of rising ahead, now dropped
sharply away. I looked upward to see a narrow ridge running up to a sharp
point. A few more whacks of the ice ax and we stood on the summit.”

The vast panorama of the Himalayas lay before them: fleecy clouds and the
pastel shades of Tibet to the north, and in all directions sweeping ranks of
jagged mountains, cloud-filled valleys, great natural amphitheaters of snow
and rock, and the glittering Kangshung Glacier 10,000 feet below.

There was a modest celebration. “We shook hands and then, casting
Anglo-Saxon formalities aside, we thumped each other on the back until
forced to stop from lack of breath,” Sir Edmund remembered. They took
photographs and left a crucifix for Colonel Hunt, the expedition leader. Mr.
Norgay, a Buddhist, buried biscuits and chocolate as an offering to the gods
of Everest. Then they ate a mint cake, strapped on their oxygen tanks and
began the climb down.

Four days later, the news was flashed around the world as a coronation gift
of sorts to Queen Elizabeth II, who was crowned in Westminster Abbey on June
2. “We tuned into the BBC for a description of the queen’s coronation, and
to our great excitement heard the announcement that Everest had been
climbed,” Sir Edmund recalled in his autobiography, “Nothing Venture,
Nothing Win” (1975, Hodder & Stoughton). The queen promptly made Edmund
Hillary a Knight Commander of the Order of the British Empire, while Mr.
Norgay received the George Medal of Britain and other honors.

Worldwide heroes overnight, they were greeted by huge crowds in India and
London. A controversy over whether Sir Edmund or Mr. Norgay had been first
to stand on the summit threatened briefly to mar the celebrations, but
Colonel Hunt declared, “They reached it together, as a team.” It was not
until 1999, in his book “View from the Summit” (Doubleday), that Sir Edmund
broke his silence about which of the two men had reached the peak first. He
wrote that it was he, not Mr. Norgay.

“We drew closer together as Tenzing brought in the slack on the rope,” he
wrote. “I continued cutting a line of steps upwards. Next moment I had moved
onto a flattish exposed area of snow with nothing but space in every
direction.” He added, “Tenzing quickly joined me and we looked round in
wonder.”

Sir Edmund continued his life of adventure, climbing mountains and once
crossing the Antarctic, lecturing and making public appearances, and serving
as New Zealand’s high commissioner, or ambassador, to India, Bangladesh and
Nepal from 1985 to 1988.

Like Sir Edmund, Mr. Norgay, whose name was sometimes rendered Norkay, never
again tried to climb Everest. He died in 1986.

In more than five decades since the first successful assault on what
climbers call the top of the world, more than 3,000 people, including Sir
Edmund’s son, Peter, and Mr. Norgay’s son, Jamling, have reached the summit
of Everest, while more than 200 have died in the attempt, 8 of them in a
1996 expedition that was savaged by a blizzard.

Today, Everest expeditions are almost commonplace. On a single day in 2003,
118 people were reported to have made it. Some veteran climbers have
criticized the “commercialism” and “circus atmosphere” surrounding Everest
climbing. Sir Edmund added his voice to the lament in 2003 as crowds
gathered for the 50th anniversary celebrations in Katmandu, Nepal.

Tough, rawboned, 6 feet 5 inches tall, with a long leathery and wrinkled
face, Sir Edmund was an intelligent but unsophisticated man with tigerish
confidence on a mountain but little taste for formal social doings. For many
years after the Everest climb, he continued to list his occupation as
beekeeper — his father’s pursuit — and he preferred to be known as Ed.

During the Southern Hemisphere summer of 1957-58 a British Commonwealth team
that included Sir Edmund crossed the Antarctic on an overland route that
traversed the South Pole.

The expedition, using tractors, was led by Sir Vivian Fuchs, but Sir Edmund
and a party of New Zealanders made the dash over the pole. There was debate
afterward about credit, but a book by Sir Edmund and Sir Vivian belittled
the differences.

In 1960, Sir Edmund led a highly publicized but unsuccessful search for the
Abominable Snowman. And in 1985, accompanied by Neil Armstrong, the first
man on the moon, Sir Edmund flew a twin-engine ski plane over the Arctic and
landed at the North Pole. He thus became the first to stand at both poles
and on the summit of Everest.

Sir Edmund wrote or was a co-author of 13 books, including “No Latitude for
Error” (1961, Hodder & Stoughton), about the Antarctic experience. He also
formed a foundation, the Sir Edmund Hillary Himalayan Trust, which raised
millions and built schools, clinics, airfields and other facilities for the
Sherpa villages in Nepal. For many years, Sir Edmund was president of New
Zealand’s Peace Corps and an important voice in his country’s conservation
efforts.

Edmund Percival Hillary was born July 20, 1919, in Tuakau, near Auckland,
the son of Percival Augustus Hillary and Gertrude Clark Hillary. His father
was a commercial beekeeper, and Edmund and a younger brother, Rexford,
worked on the family farm.

Edmund began climbing as a youth while attending public schools in Auckland.
He went to Auckland University and served in the Royal New Zealand Air Force
as a navigator during World War II.

After the war he took climbing instruction from leading alpinists, began to
specialize in ice-climbing techniques, climbed in the Swiss Alps and got to
know British mountaineers with Himalayan experience. He began climbing peaks
of more than 20,000 feet in Nepal. As his reputation grew, Colonel Hunt
chose him as a member of the 1953 expedition that conquered Everest.

Four months after Everest, Sir Edmund married Louise Mary Rose, the daughter
of a mountain climber. They had three children, Peter, Sarah and Belinda. In
1975, Lady Louise and Belinda were killed when their small plane crashed on
takeoff from Katmandu Airport.

In 1979, Sir Edmund was to have been commentator on an Air New Zealand
sightseeing flight over the Antarctic but had to withdraw because of a
schedule conflict. His friend and fellow mountaineer Peter Mulgrew took his
place. The plane crashed on Mount Erebus, a volcano on Ross Island in
McMurdo Sound, and all 257 aboard were killed. Sir Edmund married June
Mulgrew, his friend’s widow, in 1989. Besides Lady June, Sir Edmund is
survived by his daughter, Sarah, his son, Peter, and six grandchildren.

A footnote to the lore of Everest was added in 1999. Using global
positioning system equipment, an expedition sponsored by the National
Geographic Society and others revised the elevation of the summit upward by
7 feet, to 29,035 from 29,028.

Standing atop that pinnacle in 1953 was an experience Sir Hillary would
recollect many times in lectures and quiet conversations.

“The whole world around us lay spread out like a giant relief map,” he told
one interviewer. “I am a lucky man. I have had a dream and it has come true,
and that is not a thing that happens often to men.”

Tim Johnston contributed reporting from Sydney, Australia.

[Ray O'Hara]

"D. Spencer Hines" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

An excellent obituary in The New York Times, filled with detail -- and
better than that in The Times.

For Example:

"In 1960, Sir Edmund led a highly publicized but unsuccessful search for
the
Abominable Snowman. And in 1985, accompanied by Neil Armstrong, the first
man on the moon, Sir Edmund flew a twin-engine ski plane over the Arctic
and
landed at the North Pole. He thus became the first to stand at both poles
and on the summit of Everest."

DSH

so what.

[Leo van de Pas]

He is a "Plantagenet Cousin" and this also makes him and Barack Obama
cousins.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 4:18 AM
Subject: ULYSSES S GRANT

Has Ulysses S Grant any proven Medieval lineages?

regards


Peter de Loriol





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To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
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--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.1/1220 - Release Date: 1/11/2008
6:09 PM

[Eugene Griessel]

"Ray O'Hara" <[email protected]> wrote:

"D. Spencer Hines" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
An excellent obituary in The New York Times, filled with detail -- and
better than that in The Times.

For Example:

"In 1960, Sir Edmund led a highly publicized but unsuccessful search for
the
Abominable Snowman. And in 1985, accompanied by Neil Armstrong, the first
man on the moon, Sir Edmund flew a twin-engine ski plane over the Arctic
and
landed at the North Pole. He thus became the first to stand at both poles
and on the summit of Everest."

DSH

so what.

So? It's the only way the geriatric old bastard can achieve a
vicarious orgasm.

Eugene L Griessel

The difference between tax avoiding and evasion is 10 Years.

- I usually post only from Sci.Military.Naval -

[[email protected]]

On Jan 12, 2:16 pm, "Leo van de Pas" <[email protected]> wrote:

He is a "Plantagenet Cousin" and this also makes him and Barack Obama
cousins.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Not true. U.S. Grant has no known royal descents. See "Ancestors of

American Presidents" by Gary Boyd Roberts (1st ed., 1995, Boston,
NEHGS).

[Peter Jason]

"Eugene Griessel" <[email protected]>
wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

"Ray O'Hara" <[email protected]> wrote:


"D. Spencer Hines" <[email protected]
wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
An excellent obituary in The New York
Times, filled with detail -- and
better than that in The Times.

For Example:

"In 1960, Sir Edmund led a highly
publicized but unsuccessful search for
the
Abominable Snowman. And in 1985,
accompanied by Neil Armstrong, the first
man on the moon, Sir Edmund flew a
twin-engine ski plane over the Arctic
and
landed at the North Pole. He thus became
the first to stand at both poles
and on the summit of Everest."

DSH

He cheated. He used oxygen!

[Gordon and Jane Kirkemo]

Peter,

I can offer a tertiary source that indicates a number of descents to US
Grant from royal ancestors. I don't feel qualified to make judgments as to
the quality of the research. You might want to get a copy (it is a three
volume set) and evaluate it for yourself. I first found it through Google
which permits only snippets, but it can identify libraries that have copies.
I have access to a copy at my local library, and can give you some
summaries, but I'd encourage you to see if you can obtain a copy first so
that you can judge for yourself.

The title is "The Ancestry of Chamberlin and Grant," and the author/compiler
is June G. Henderson. It is published by Gateway Press.

Let me know if you need any further assistance.

Sincerely,
Gordon Kirkemo

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 9:19 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: ULYSSES S GRANT

Has Ulysses S Grant any proven Medieval lineages?

regards


Peter de Loriol

[John Foster]

Here's a web reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grant's_Tomb

I have to answer it myself, I guess.

The proper answer is "nobody".

Ulysses Simpson Grant
AND HIS WIFE
Julia Boggs Dent Grant
are entombed together above ground, not buried.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
John C. Foster, retsof *at* austin.rr.com was retsof *at* texas.net
RETSOFtware, where QUALITY is only a slogan...

TX4.US
RETSOF.US
COKELEY.US
LOVE-M-ALL-PETCARE.TX4.US
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Foster" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 1:09 PM
Subject: Re: ULYSSES S GRANT

Who's buried in Grant's tomb?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
John C. Foster, retsof *at* austin.rr.com was retsof *at* texas.net
RETSOFtware, where QUALITY is only a slogan...

TX4.US
RETSOF.US
COKELEY.US
LOVE-M-ALL-PETCARE.TX4.US
----- Original Message -----
From: "D. Spencer Hines" <[email protected]
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <[email protected]
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: ULYSSES S GRANT


He does reportedly have a _Mayflower_ ancestor, Richard Warren...

And is reportedly related to FDR through the Delano Family.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

Has Ulysses S Grant any proven Medieval lineages?

regards


Peter de Loriol



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To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
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--
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database:
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[D. Spencer Hines]

Grant and FDR seem to be 4th cousins, once removed.

The common ancestors are Jonathan Delano and Mercy Warren, a Mayflower
descendant.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

[Young John]

Peter Jason wrote:

"Eugene Griessel" <[email protected]
wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
"Ray O'Hara" <[email protected]> wrote:

"D. Spencer Hines" <[email protected]
wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
An excellent obituary in The New York
Times, filled with detail -- and
better than that in The Times.

For Example:

"In 1960, Sir Edmund led a highly
publicized but unsuccessful search for
the
Abominable Snowman. And in 1985,
accompanied by Neil Armstrong, the first
man on the moon, Sir Edmund flew a
twin-engine ski plane over the Arctic
and
landed at the North Pole. He thus became
the first to stand at both poles
and on the summit of Everest."

DSH


He cheated. He used oxygen!

He was told by some doctors that it was physically impossible to get to
the summit of Everest without it. No one had done it before. His attempt
was the equivalent of going to space, for the times.

[D. Spencer Hines]

A Glorous Day Indeed...

Edmund Hillary & Tenzing Norgay -- Both Stalwarts -- Not Mugwump
Mollycoddles.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas
------------------------------------------------

The New York Times

At 6:30 a.m. on May 29, 1953, cheered by clearing skies, they began the
final attack. Carrying enough oxygen for seven hours and counting on picking
up two partly filled tanks left by Dr. Evans and Mr. Bourdillon, they moved
out. Roped together, cutting toe-holds with their ice axes, first one man
leading and then the other, they inched up a steep, knife-edged ridge
southeast of the summit.

Halfway up, Sir Edmund recalled in “High Adventure” (1955, Oxford University
Press), they discovered soft snow under them. “Immediately I realized we
were on dangerous ground,” he said. “Suddenly, with a dull breaking noise,
an area of crust all around me about six feet in diameter broke off.” He
slid backward 20 or 30 feet before regaining a hold. “It was a nasty shock,”
he said. “I could look down 10,000 feet between my legs.”

Farther up, they encountered what was later named the Hillary Step — a sheer
face of rock and ice 40 feet high that Sir Edmund called “the most
formidable obstacle on the ridge.” But they found a vertical crack and
managed to climb it by bracing feet against one side and backs against the
other. The last few yards to the summit were relatively easy.

“As I chipped steps, I wondered how long we could keep it up,” Sir Edmund
said. “Then I realized that the ridge, instead of rising ahead, now dropped
sharply away. I looked upward to see a narrow ridge running up to a sharp
point. A few more whacks of the ice ax and we stood on the summit.”

The vast panorama of the Himalayas lay before them: fleecy clouds and the
pastel shades of Tibet to the north, and in all directions sweeping ranks of
jagged mountains, cloud-filled valleys, great natural amphitheaters of snow
and rock, and the glittering Kangshung Glacier 10,000 feet below.

There was a modest celebration. “We shook hands and then, casting
Anglo-Saxon formalities aside, we thumped each other on the back until
forced to stop from lack of breath,” Sir Edmund remembered. They took
photographs and left a crucifix for Colonel Hunt, the expedition leader. Mr.
Norgay, a Buddhist, buried biscuits and chocolate as an offering to the gods
of Everest. Then they ate a mint cake, strapped on their oxygen tanks and
began the climb down.

[Gordon and Jane Kirkemo]

Given the apparent interest and consensus that seems to exist, it seems I
should at least share a couple of summary descents from the book I cited so
that the errors can be identified.

Before doing so, however, let me make it clear that I claim no interest or
knowledge regarding the immediate ancestry of US Grant. Given I just found
the books, I can offer no judgment as to the quality of the lines provided,
and I have no interest in defending them.

While there are 25+ summary descent tables, many repeat in the later
generations. The connections seem to be through his mother, if I am
correctly interpreting them. Given that typing is not my favorite activity,
I will provide two summaries and I will start both at Edward III of England.
All the descents start with earlier kings or significant personages (i.e. El
Cid) although some do not pass through Edward III.

The tables do not identify spouses, although other sections of the three
volumes provide those details. I have copied only these summary tables for
now with the intent of reviewing them more closely, so I do not have the
volumes at hand.

Table 1 starts with Alfred the Great and comes down to Edward III and
continues:

Edward III
John of Gaunt
Joan Beaufort
Richard de Neville
Catherine de Neville
Cecily Bonville
Mary de Grey
Katherine Devereux
Walter Baskerville
James Baskerville
Sybil Baskerville
Robert Whitney
Thomas Whitney
John Whitney
Jonathan Whitney
Anna Whitney
Isaac Fisher
Beriah Fisher
Eunice Mason
John Mason Adams
Frances Sophia Adams
Ulysses Simpson Grant

Table 2 begins with William the Conqueror and comes down to Edward III and
continues:

Edward III
John of Gaunt
Joan Beaufort
Eleanor de Neville
Henry de Percy
Henry de Percy
Eleanor de Percy
Mary Stafford
Mary Neville
Gregory Fiennes
Mary Fiennes
Dorothy Wheatley
Martha Bliss
Patience Ide
Charles Carpenter
Jedediah Carpenter
Ezra Carpenter
Ruth Carpenter
Frances Sophia Adams
Ulysses Simpson Grant


Given the consensus, there must be one or more errors in each of these
descents, but I can offer no insight as to where they might be. All of the
tables, except number 3 come down through Frances Sophia Adams; that one
comes down from William the Conqueror through John Lackland and then through
Daniel Seaver Grant, apparently US Grant's father. I will post it if there
is interest.

I hope this will be of interest.

Sincerely,
Gordon


-----Original Message-----
From: Gordon and Jane Kirkemo [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 7:05 PM
To: [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: RE: ULYSSES S GRANT

Peter,

I can offer a tertiary source that indicates a number of descents to US
Grant from royal ancestors. I don't feel qualified to make judgments as to
the quality of the research. You might want to get a copy (it is a three
volume set) and evaluate it for yourself. I first found it through Google
which permits only snippets, but it can identify libraries that have copies.
I have access to a copy at my local library, and can give you some
summaries, but I'd encourage you to see if you can obtain a copy first so
that you can judge for yourself.

The title is "The Ancestry of Chamberlin and Grant," and the author/compiler
is June G. Henderson. It is published by Gateway Press.

Let me know if you need any further assistance.

Sincerely,
Gordon Kirkemo

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 9:19 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: ULYSSES S GRANT

Has Ulysses S Grant any proven Medieval lineages?

regards


Peter de Loriol

[D. Spencer Hines]

Well, I'm sorry to tell you this but your alleged descents from Edward III
and William The Conqueror to Ulysses Simpson Grant [originally Hiram
Simpson Grant] don't even get his MOTHER and FATHER correct.

His mother was NOT "Frances Sophia Adams" but HANNAH SIMPSON.

His father was NOT "Daniel Seaver Grant" but JESSE ROOT GRANT.

See GBR, op. cit.

So the ascents fail at the first generation -- to Grant's parents.

'Nuff Said.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"Gordon and Jane Kirkemo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

Given the apparent interest and consensus that seems to exist, it seems I
should at least share a couple of summary descents from the book I cited
so
that the errors can be identified.

Before doing so, however, let me make it clear that I claim no interest or
knowledge regarding the immediate ancestry of US Grant. Given I just
found
the books, I can offer no judgment as to the quality of the lines
provided,
and I have no interest in defending them.

While there are 25+ summary descent tables, many repeat in the later
generations. The connections seem to be through his mother, if I am
correctly interpreting them. Given that typing is not my favorite
activity,
I will provide two summaries and I will start both at Edward III of
England.
All the descents start with earlier kings or significant personages (i.e.
El
Cid) although some do not pass through Edward III.

The tables do not identify spouses, although other sections of the three
volumes provide those details. I have copied only these summary tables
for
now with the intent of reviewing them more closely, so I do not have the
volumes at hand.

Table 1 starts with Alfred the Great and comes down to Edward III and
continues:

Edward III
John of Gaunt
Joan Beaufort
Richard de Neville
Catherine de Neville
Cecily Bonville
Mary de Grey
Katherine Devereux
Walter Baskerville
James Baskerville
Sybil Baskerville
Robert Whitney
Thomas Whitney
John Whitney
Jonathan Whitney
Anna Whitney
Isaac Fisher
Beriah Fisher
Eunice Mason
John Mason Adams
Frances Sophia Adams
Ulysses Simpson Grant

Table 2 begins with William the Conqueror and comes down to Edward III and
continues:

Edward III
John of Gaunt
Joan Beaufort
Eleanor de Neville
Henry de Percy
Henry de Percy
Eleanor de Percy
Mary Stafford
Mary Neville
Gregory Fiennes
Mary Fiennes
Dorothy Wheatley
Martha Bliss
Patience Ide
Charles Carpenter
Jedediah Carpenter
Ezra Carpenter
Ruth Carpenter
Frances Sophia Adams
Ulysses Simpson Grant


Given the consensus, there must be one or more errors in each of these
descents, but I can offer no insight as to where they might be. All of
the
tables, except number 3 come down through Frances Sophia Adams; that one
comes down from William the Conqueror through John Lackland and then
through
Daniel Seaver Grant, apparently US Grant's father. I will post it if
there
is interest.

I hope this will be of interest.

Sincerely,
Gordon

[a.spencer3]

"Ray O'Hara" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

"D. Spencer Hines" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
An excellent obituary in The New York Times, filled with detail -- and
better than that in The Times.

For Example:

"In 1960, Sir Edmund led a highly publicized but unsuccessful search for
the
Abominable Snowman. And in 1985, accompanied by Neil Armstrong, the
first
man on the moon, Sir Edmund flew a twin-engine ski plane over the Arctic
and
landed at the North Pole. He thus became the first to stand at both
poles
and on the summit of Everest."

DSH

so what.


If any of these derogatory comments are genuine, rather than misplaced and

unclever sarcasm, those people need to get some juice in their blood.

Surreyman

[D. Spencer Hines]

D'accord.

DSH

"a.spencer3" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

"Ray O'Hara" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

"D. Spencer Hines" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

An excellent obituary in The New York Times, filled with detail -- and
better than that in The Times.

For Example:

"In 1960, Sir Edmund led a highly publicized but unsuccessful search
for
the Abominable Snowman. And in 1985, accompanied by Neil
Armstrong, the first man on the moon, Sir Edmund flew a twin-engine ski
plane over the Arctic and landed at the North Pole. He thus became the
first to stand at both poles and on the summit of Everest."

DSH

so what.

If any of these derogatory comments are genuine, rather than misplaced and
unclever sarcasm, those people need to get some juice in their blood.

Surreyman

[Gjest]

Peter Jason wrote:

"In 1960, Sir Edmund Hillary


He cheated. He used oxygen!

Better put: everybody else (on South Col route) cheated, they followed his route

There are lots of people who can easily do it with oxygen,
but, no matter how hard they try, would die without it.

Different people react differently to extreme altitude. At my age,
the top of Mt. Everest is far far beyond my abilities. (I would be
the oldest ever to do it.) But I've been to relatively high
altitude (2/3 as high as Everest) a few times and the altitude never
bothered me, but did seriously bother people with me. If I were
20 years old today I would aim to do it.

Trying to do it without oxygen is a very very stupid thing
for most people. Not for everybody. I recently read Ed Viesters'
book about his climbs. He, for example, is one of the lucky
few for whom it really is not dangerously stupid to try it
without oxygen.

Doug McDonald

[D. Spencer Hines]

What do they have that others don't?...

Physiologically.

DSH

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

Peter Jason wrote:

"In 1960, Sir Edmund Hillary


He cheated. He used oxygen!

Better put: everybody else (on South Col route) cheated, they followed his
route

There are lots of people who can easily do it with oxygen,
but, no matter how hard they try, would die without it.

Different people react differently to extreme altitude. At my age,
the top of Mt. Everest is far far beyond my abilities. (I would be
the oldest ever to do it.) But I've been to relatively high
altitude (2/3 as high as Everest) a few times and the altitude never
bothered me, but did seriously bother people with me. If I were
20 years old today I would aim to do it.

Trying to do it without oxygen is a very very stupid thing
for most people. Not for everybody. I recently read Ed Viesters'
book about his climbs. He, for example, is one of the lucky
few for whom it really is not dangerously stupid to try it
without oxygen.

Doug McDonald

[TMOliver]

"a.spencer3" <[email protected]> wrote ...

"Ray O'Hara" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

"D. Spencer Hines" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
An excellent obituary in The New York Times, filled with detail -- and
better than that in The Times.

For Example:

"In 1960, Sir Edmund led a highly publicized but unsuccessful search
for
the
Abominable Snowman. And in 1985, accompanied by Neil Armstrong, the
first
man on the moon, Sir Edmund flew a twin-engine ski plane over the
Arctic
and
landed at the North Pole. He thus became the first to stand at both
poles
and on the summit of Everest."

DSH

so what.


If any of these derogatory comments are genuine, rather than misplaced and
unclever sarcasm, those people need to get some juice in their blood.

Consider the source. As venomous as your average wasp sting and denser than
the granite of the nearby New Hampshire mountains, the poster's stupidity is
legend, truly an individual whom DSH rises far, far above in every category.
With obnoxious, ill-bred cretins like "ray" about, how can we find room to
hurl barbs and epithets at Spencer? "ray" is certainly a living example of
"genus misanthropae".

Hillary and Roger Bannister remain as heroes of my youth, the sort of
legendary best with whom Great Britain had traditionally endowed the world.
For my father who had seen, lived on the lower slopes of and flown over the
Himalayas, Hillary's triumph over the mountain put him in a category with
the giant figures of Greek mythology.

But then, I even remember Juan Manual Fangio, Ordonez, and Dominguin,
masters of their respective trades.


TMO

[Eugene Griessel]

"TMOliver" <[email protected]> wrote:

Hillary and Roger Bannister remain as heroes of my youth, the sort of
legendary best with whom Great Britain had traditionally endowed the world.
For my father who had seen, lived on the lower slopes of and flown over the
Himalayas, Hillary's triumph over the mountain put him in a category with
the giant figures of Greek mythology.

Strangely enough Hillary always came third in my list of New Zealand
heroes, after Lord Rutherford and Charles Upham.

Eugene L Griessel

History: An account, mostly false, of events, mostly unimportant,
which are brought about by rulers, mostly knaves, and soldiers,
mostly fools.
- Ambrose Bierce

- I usually post only from Sci.Military.Naval -

[Gjest]

The Chamberlin & Grant book is pretty bad.
It includes numerous supposed royal descents,
but the only one that seems to be correct is for Samuel Appleton.

It has one for a William Throop of Connecticut which I believe is
almost
certainly wrong. As I remember the Whitney line is wrong, and the
Bliss / Wheatley descent is also very confused.
Their aim seems to be to get as many 'royal descents' as possible,
in defiance of the facts.

Wasn't the false Booth ancestry for US Grant brought up just a few
months ago?
We mentioned then that it was wrong, but we get the same people
asking the same questions.

Leslie

I can offer a tertiary source that indicates a number of descents to US
Grant from royal ancestors. I don't feel qualified to make judgments as to
the quality of the research. You might want to get a copy (it is a three
volume set) and evaluate it for yourself. I first found it through Google
which permits only snippets, but it can identify libraries that have copies.
I have access to a copy at my local library, and can give you some
summaries, but I'd encourage you to see if you can obtain a copy first so
that you can judge for yourself.

The title is "The Ancestry of Chamberlin and Grant," and the author/compiler
is June G. Henderson. It is published by Gateway Press.

Let me know if you need any further assistance.

Sincerely,
Gordon Kirkemo

[Gjest]

D. Spencer Hines wrote:

What do they have that others don't?...

Physiologically.

First, the way their red blood cells take up oxygen. Small
mutations in hemoglobin change that.

Second, the way their
mitochondria actually process oxygen. This depends on
many small mutations in many of the oxidation chain enzymes.

Third, the overall efficiency with which they process stored
energy into work. This is unrelated to the other two.

All this can be tested, and, for example, Ed Viesturs (correct
spelling) excels in all three. I have never been tested,
but I am likely above average in number two and probably
well below average in number three.

Doug McDonald

[Peter Jason]

"The Highlander" <[email protected]> wrote in
message
news:d01b3527-e438-4bd3-85c5-b7a2efcc165d@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

On Jan 13, 6:46 am, [email protected]
wrote:
Peter Jason wrote:
"In 1960, Sir Edmund Hillary

He cheated. He used oxygen!

Better put: everybody else (on South Col
route) cheated, they followed his route

There are lots of people who can easily do
it with oxygen,
but, no matter how hard they try, would
die without it.

Different people react differently to
extreme altitude. At my age,
the top of Mt. Everest is far far beyond
my abilities. (I would be
the oldest ever to do it.) But I've been
to relatively high
altitude (2/3 as high as Everest) a few
times and the altitude never
bothered me, but did seriously bother
people with me. If I were
20 years old today I would aim to do it.

Trying to do it without oxygen is a very
very stupid thing
for most people. Not for everybody. I
recently read Ed Viesters'
book about his climbs. He, for example, is
one of the lucky
few for whom it really is not dangerously
stupid to try it
without oxygen.

Doug McDonald

When I was young I knew Ferdie (Colin)
Crawford of Rosemarkie (a small
town on the Black Isle of Ross-shire) who
was involved in an attempt
on Everest without oxygen in 1922 (?).
Later in 1933 another attempt
was made and Ferdie spent most of his life
as an invalid, his lungs
having apparently been permanently damaged
by the attempt. As I
recollect, they claimed to have gotten
within 400 feet of the summit
before giving up because of oxygen
starvation. Prior to the attempt,
it seems there were dreadful quarrels over
who would lead the attempt
and accusations, resignations and insults
flew back and forth. The
whole episode seems to have been highly
political and in retrospect,
little seems to have redounded to anyone's
credit.

http://imagingeverest.rgs.org/Units/29.html
- a small bio about
Crawford.

I do suppose the advantages of oxygen might
be somewhat negated by the weight of the
cylinders. In 1953 they were still using
steel cylinders which must have weighed quite
a bit. I have just finished reading the bio
of George Mallory who made an Everest attempt
in 1924 and died just beneath the summit.
The point was made that even with primitive
oxygen equipment of the time he wasn't
breathing enough of it.

Given the contentious nature of drug taking
in most sports these days, can we suppose
that some explorers take some stimulant, such
as Benzedrine, just before the final push to
the destination? I would not be surprised.

[Gordon and Jane Kirkemo]

Leslie,

Thanks for your response. As I tried to make clear, I have no interest in
the Grant genealogy, and was interested only in the earlier generations. In
doing some Google book searches, this reference kept popping up, so I was
curious to see what it contained. I'm not surprised to hear the book is
unreliable, but I do appreciate your appraisal.

Sincerely,
Gordon

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 11:28 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: ULYSSES S GRANT




The Chamberlin & Grant book is pretty bad.
It includes numerous supposed royal descents,
but the only one that seems to be correct is for Samuel Appleton.

It has one for a William Throop of Connecticut which I believe is
almost
certainly wrong. As I remember the Whitney line is wrong, and the
Bliss / Wheatley descent is also very confused.
Their aim seems to be to get as many 'royal descents' as possible,
in defiance of the facts.

Wasn't the false Booth ancestry for US Grant brought up just a few
months ago?
We mentioned then that it was wrong, but we get the same people
asking the same questions.

Leslie

I can offer a tertiary source that indicates a number of descents to US
Grant from royal ancestors. I don't feel qualified to make judgments as
to
the quality of the research. You might want to get a copy (it is a three
volume set) and evaluate it for yourself. I first found it through Google
which permits only snippets, but it can identify libraries that have
copies.
I have access to a copy at my local library, and can give you some
summaries, but I'd encourage you to see if you can obtain a copy first so
that you can judge for yourself.

The title is "The Ancestry of Chamberlin and Grant," and the
author/compiler
is June G. Henderson. It is published by Gateway Press.

Let me know if you need any further assistance.

Sincerely,
Gordon Kirkemo

[D. Spencer Hines]

Well then post under a different subject line.

DSH

"Gordon and Jane Kirkemo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

As I tried to make clear, I have no interest in the Grant genealogy, and
was interested only in the earlier generations.

[Leo van de Pas]

I am amazed about this story but not about the involvement of Prince Michael
of Greece. Prince Michael simply wrote a story and, no doubt, makes money
out of it. What I am amazed about is the "fact" given, King Henri IV had a
nephew "Jean Philippe". I hope I have recorded the Bourbon family in fairly
good detail and I cannot fine _any_ Jean Philippe de Bourbon.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia


----- Original Message -----
From: "p j evans" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 2:53 AM
Subject: OT: Bourbons of India, so-called

The LA Times has a story today (10 Jan 2007) titled "French Royalty That's
Made in India"
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... home-world>.
I've sent them the relevant innformation from the archives already.

P J Evans




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--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.1/1220 - Release Date: 1/11/2008
6:09 PM

[Spacy Bickerson]

"Josiah Jenkins" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:59:38 -0500, "Spacy Bickerson"
[email protected]> wrote:

snip

. . . My ancestors came from Glasgow and found his use of the
Glaswegian dialect fascinating - though I have never actually heard it
spoken and I am at least three generations removed from that city.

No idea how these relate to Fraser's attempts but I can asure you that
these two sound clips are genuine Glasgow accents.

Two ladies in conversation : http://tinyurl.com/2pozo6

Paul Jamieson who does loads of TV and radio voiceovers :
http://www.svmk.co.uk/all_male.php

-- jjj
thank you!!!

[Gjest]

In a message dated 1/13/2008 2:10:24 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

lands and title King of Mann were allowed by the
various English monarchs by the constituition (re 1607,above). You may
have read that in some time periods the Isle of Mann and its titles
were sold or bought, not true, they were Mortgaged, a major
difference! Would the British Crown who now has the title acknowledge
it anyway, probably not, but then again


---------------------------
Provide a source and quote showing that the titles were mortgaged (provided
such a thing is even possible).
Thanks

Will Johnson



**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exer ... 0000002489

[a.spencer3]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

Peter Jason wrote:

"In 1960, Sir Edmund Hillary


He cheated. He used oxygen!



Better put: everybody else (on South Col route) cheated, they followed his
route

There are lots of people who can easily do it with oxygen,
but, no matter how hard they try, would die without it.

Different people react differently to extreme altitude. At my age,
the top of Mt. Everest is far far beyond my abilities. (I would be
the oldest ever to do it.) But I've been to relatively high
altitude (2/3 as high as Everest) a few times and the altitude never
bothered me, but did seriously bother people with me. If I were
20 years old today I would aim to do it.

Trying to do it without oxygen is a very very stupid thing
for most people. Not for everybody. I recently read Ed Viesters'
book about his climbs. He, for example, is one of the lucky
few for whom it really is not dangerously stupid to try it
without oxygen.

Doug McDonald

Yep, my top (when young!) was around 15,000 and nothing ever noticed (I'd
barely heard then of altitude sickness). Yet now I'm warned about going to
Maccu Piccu - about 8,000 I believe!

Surreyman

[a.spencer3]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:09255343-44cd-4af8-89c9-09f57e06cea5@v67g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

On Jan 13, 6:32 pm, Young John <[email protected]> wrote:
Peter Jason wrote:
"Eugene Griessel" <[email protected]
wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
"Ray O'Hara" <[email protected]> wrote:

"D. Spencer Hines" <[email protected]
wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
An excellent obituary in The New York
Times, filled with detail -- and
better than that in The Times.

For Example:

"In 1960, Sir Edmund led a highly
publicized but unsuccessful search for
the
Abominable Snowman. And in 1985,
accompanied by Neil Armstrong, the first
man on the moon, Sir Edmund flew a
twin-engine ski plane over the Arctic
and
landed at the North Pole. He thus became
the first to stand at both poles
and on the summit of Everest."

DSH

He cheated. He used oxygen!

He was told by some doctors that it was physically impossible to get to
the summit of Everest without it. No one had done it before. His attempt
was the equivalent of going to space, for the times.

Did he get there first or was Tenzing there first?

Hillary - much later - claimed that he was just first and that Tensing
quickly joined him.

Surreyman

[Gjest]

On Jan 13, 10:10�pm, [email protected] wrote:

In a message dated 1/13/2008 2:10:24 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, �

[email protected] writes:

lands �and title King of Mann were allowed by the
various English monarchs by the �constituition (re 1607,above). You may
have read that in some time periods �the Isle of Mann and its titles
were sold or bought, not true, they were �Mortgaged, a major
difference! Would the British Crown who now has the �title acknowledge
it anyway, probably not, but then �again

---------------------------
Provide a source and quote showing that the titles were mortgaged (provided �
such a thing is even possible).
Thanks

Will Johnson

**************Start the year off right. �Easy ways to stay in shape. � �http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

Good Morning
Will,
Yes, that was quite a continium of words and sentences but was on a
roll.

Before I get to a couple of goodies, you must remember that that the
Isle of Mann was considered a seperate nation, and could do as they
wanted with a high King wether it was the king of England, King of
Scotland or the King or Norway, they could do with the isle and titles
as they wished, this concept to many of the medievel period studies is
foreign it appears, but that is the way it was as long as they didn't
rebel against the high king with one of the High Kings enemies, the
High King or as Edward I put it " he was the Superior King" they did
not care.

33 Ed I, Anthony Beck, Bishop of Durham held the Mortgage of the Isle
of Man of William Montacute, Gilbert de M'Gaskill was the seneschal
of the Island for the Bishop, Rymers Faedera Vol. III p. 233

letter from Edward I to Bishop of Durham(Beck) to turn it over to him
Anno 1307 Ed I"Super insula de Man in Man Regis Resund......Episcope
scire fecere, et hoc breve...Teste Rege apud Caldecotis 28 die Junii
per consilium" Rymers Faeder Vol II, p. 1058 35 Ed I

1393 William Motacute II sold the Isle of Man to Sir William Scrope
for 10,000 lbs Camden, Goldwin, Surtees et al.

Oh yes, how did the De Burgos, female ancestors of the Botelers hold
the Islands?" Pat. de Anno Sexto Regis Johannis- Rex Reddidit Will. de
Burgo...." was given the island as the overlord/King of the King of
the Isle of Man at the death of Reginald King of Mann, and was held
until 1299 when Richard his son Father -in-law of Theobald,
surrendered it in 1299.

Abt 1394/5 Henry Beaumont was given the island and Full titles of KING
by the King of England but was soon reneged in a dispute with Scotland
etc.

Will, I don't sit around and make this stuff up, I have dozens and
dozens of charters and patents on this stuff on the Isle of Mann, most
in latin, some I may misinterpret, but that is why this forum is good
as there are those who do read latin better than I but after so many
charters and rolls the precedence is set and in the Stanley charter
not even the fees of the Bishopric go to the crown , but to the
Stanleys.
Best Rgards,
Emmett L. Butler

[William Black]

"a.spencer3" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

[email protected]> wrote in message
news:09255343-44cd-4af8-89c9-09f57e06cea5@v67g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 13, 6:32 pm, Young John <[email protected]> wrote:
Peter Jason wrote:
"Eugene Griessel" <[email protected]
wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
"Ray O'Hara" <[email protected]> wrote:

"D. Spencer Hines" <[email protected]
wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
An excellent obituary in The New York
Times, filled with detail -- and
better than that in The Times.

For Example:

"In 1960, Sir Edmund led a highly
publicized but unsuccessful search for
the
Abominable Snowman. And in 1985,
accompanied by Neil Armstrong, the first
man on the moon, Sir Edmund flew a
twin-engine ski plane over the Arctic
and
landed at the North Pole. He thus became
the first to stand at both poles
and on the summit of Everest."

DSH

He cheated. He used oxygen!

He was told by some doctors that it was physically impossible to get to
the summit of Everest without it. No one had done it before. His
attempt
was the equivalent of going to space, for the times.

Did he get there first or was Tenzing there first?

Hillary - much later - claimed that he was just first and that Tensing
quickly joined him.

My understanding is that Hillary always refused to say and Tenzing was the
one who (much later) said Hilary got there first.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[a.spencer3]

"William Black" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

"a.spencer3" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

[email protected]> wrote in message

news:09255343-44cd-4af8-89c9-09f57e06cea5@v67g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 13, 6:32 pm, Young John <[email protected]> wrote:
Peter Jason wrote:
"Eugene Griessel" <[email protected]
wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
"Ray O'Hara" <[email protected]> wrote:

"D. Spencer Hines" <[email protected]
wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
An excellent obituary in The New York
Times, filled with detail -- and
better than that in The Times.

For Example:

"In 1960, Sir Edmund led a highly
publicized but unsuccessful search for
the
Abominable Snowman. And in 1985,
accompanied by Neil Armstrong, the first
man on the moon, Sir Edmund flew a
twin-engine ski plane over the Arctic
and
landed at the North Pole. He thus became
the first to stand at both poles
and on the summit of Everest."

DSH

He cheated. He used oxygen!

He was told by some doctors that it was physically impossible to get
to
the summit of Everest without it. No one had done it before. His
attempt
was the equivalent of going to space, for the times.

Did he get there first or was Tenzing there first?

Hillary - much later - claimed that he was just first and that Tensing
quickly joined him.


My understanding is that Hillary always refused to say and Tenzing was the
one who (much later) said Hilary got there first.

--

I was reporting from memory, but just Googled now this from the Associated

Press obit.


Not until after Tenzing's death in 1986 did Hillary finally break his long
public silence about who was first.

``We drew closer together as Tenzing brought in the slack on the rope. I
continued cutting a line of steps upwards. Next moment I had moved onto a
flattish exposed area of snow with nothing but space in every direction,''
Hillary wrote, in his 1999 book ``View from the Summit.''

``Tenzing quickly joined me and we looked round in wonder. To our immense
satisfaction we realized with had reached the top of the world.''

Surreyman

[Westprog]

Jack Linthicum wrote:
....

I have heard a version that verifies that, but necessarily to
Hillary's credit. Someone (no names) at a famous mountaineering store
was overheard (personal) that Norkay pushed Hillary up to the top.

It should be also born in mind that Hillary's achievement was as part of a
substantial expedition, and AFAIAA he wasn't the leader or organiser.

--


J/

SOTW: "Start Me Up" - The Folksmen

http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop- ... ma_001_014

[a.spencer3]

"Westprog" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

Jack Linthicum wrote:
...
I have heard a version that verifies that, but necessarily to
Hillary's credit. Someone (no names) at a famous mountaineering store
was overheard (personal) that Norkay pushed Hillary up to the top.

It should be also born in mind that Hillary's achievement was as part of a
substantial expedition, and AFAIAA he wasn't the leader or organiser.

Sure, Hunt was the overall organiser.

But the previous pair who attempted, backed by the 'substantial expedition',
couldn't make it.

Hillary & Tensing made it.

Surreyman

[Westprog]

a.spencer3 wrote:
....

I have heard a version that verifies that, but necessarily to
Hillary's credit. Someone (no names) at a famous mountaineering
store was overheard (personal) that Norkay pushed Hillary up to the
top.

It should be also born in mind that Hillary's achievement was as
part of a substantial expedition, and AFAIAA he wasn't the leader or
organiser.

Sure, Hunt was the overall organiser.

But the previous pair who attempted, backed by the 'substantial
expedition', couldn't make it.

Hillary & Tensing made it.

And they made it because they were the best suited for it. It was no
sinecure. Still, as with many other achievements, they were at the sharp end
of a team effort.

--


J/

SOTW: "Start Me Up" - The Folksmen

http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop- ... ma_001_014

[The Fifeshire Bimbo]

"Spacy Bickerson" <[email protected]> wrote

"Josiah Jenkins" <[email protected]> wrote
"Spacy Bickerson" <[email protected]> wrote:

snip
.My ancestors came from Glasgow and found his use of the
Glaswegian dialect fascinating - though I have never actually
heard it spoken and I am at least three generations removed
from that city.

No idea how these relate to Fraser's attempts but I can asure
you that these two sound clips are genuine Glasgow accents.

Two ladies in conversation : http://tinyurl.com/2pozo6

All three sound very much alike ... a Fifer speaking panloaf

Paul Jamieson who does loads of TV and radio voiceovers :
http://www.svmk.co.uk/all_male.php

Same here. Also I couldn't detect much of a difference between the American
and the Canadian.

thank you!!!

[Nik]

On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 23:55:29 -0800 (PST), [email protected]
wrote:

On Jan 13, 6:32 pm, Young John <[email protected]> wrote:
Peter Jason wrote:
"Eugene Griessel" <[email protected]
wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
"Ray O'Hara" <[email protected]> wrote:

"D. Spencer Hines" <[email protected]
wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
An excellent obituary in The New York
Times, filled with detail -- and
better than that in The Times.

For Example:

"In 1960, Sir Edmund led a highly
publicized but unsuccessful search for
the
Abominable Snowman. And in 1985,
accompanied by Neil Armstrong, the first
man on the moon, Sir Edmund flew a
twin-engine ski plane over the Arctic
and
landed at the North Pole. He thus became
the first to stand at both poles
and on the summit of Everest."

DSH

He cheated. He used oxygen!

He was told by some doctors that it was physically impossible to get to
the summit of Everest without it. No one had done it before. His attempt
was the equivalent of going to space, for the times.

Did he get there first or was Tenzing there first?

Hillary got there first.

Nik

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

[Gjest]

Emmett we're talking however about the *Stanleys* and so what happened
centuries earlier isn't going to be relevant. Unless you're making a *new* claim
that the "King of Man" title was never properly vested by the Sovereign in
the Stanley's in the first place.

And then of course I'm the King of Man.

Will Johnson



**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exer ... 0000002489

[John P. Ravilious]

Monday, 14 January, 2008


Dear Mike,

As I have it, unfortunately the descent shown in the
May 2004 thread you mentioned should not have appeared.
The descent given in October 2004 is correct as I have it,
and have seen no evidence to date to amend same.

Below is the pedigree as I presently have it, down to
the issue of Sir Robert le Constable (d. bef 1272). In
addition, should you review the several postings
concerning this family, I highly recommend you review
the entire thread <The Other Heir of Magister Roger de
Arundel> from May 2007.

I have copied this to a few individuals who are most
likely to have corrective comments on this matter, if an
error or difference of opinion is noted.

Cheers,

John *

_________________________________________

The Constables of Flamborough


1 William fitz Nigel
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1130[1],[2]
Father: Nigel

of Halton, Cheshire

constable of Chester

'Willelm filius Nigelli', tenant at Halton at Domesday Book,
1086 [DP 486[2] ]

acquired Flamborough after 1086:
" Willielmus filius Nigelli dedit ecclesiam de Flemeburhe"
{' he gave to Bridlington priory the church of Flamborough
for the soul of Adeliz his wife. ' - EYC XII:143, cites
Bridlington Chartulary, p. 177[3]}. See also Mon. Angl.
VI(1):286, Num. III[4], confirmation by King Henry I]

' The demesne tenant of the larger estate [at Flamborough,
co. Yorks.] in 1086 was Hugh son of Norman. Sometime after
1086 it passed to William son of Niel, whose father had
been created constable by Earl Hugh [of Chester]. William,
who died between 1125 and 1130, was succeeded by his son,
another William, who had died by 1139. The latter seems
to have had an illegitimate son, Robert the Constable
(fl. 1146-8, 1185), who succeeded to his father's estate
in Flamborough. This Robert was the ancestor of the
Constable family of Flamborough, whose name almost
certainly derived from the family's descent from the
constables of Chester. ' [VCH Yorks., II:154[5]]

VCH refs:
"[65] E. Y. C. xii, pp. 142-6; it has been suggested that
the first Robert was the son of William son of Niel:
T.E.R.A.S. xii. 1-3. Earlier accts. of the origin of
the Constable family, of Flamborough, are inaccurate:
T.E.R.A.S. vii. 15-16; viii. 51-69; E.R.R.O.,
DDEV/11/2. "[5]

one of the hereditary Barons of the Earldom of Chester:
contemporary of Hugh 'Lupus', who d. 1101
[CP III:165 note (b)[6]]

cf. EYC XII:142-5[3]
_____________________

re: his wife:

' he gave to Bridlington priory the church of Flamborough
for the soul of Adeliz his wife. ' [EYC XII:143, cites
Bridlington Chartulary, p. 177[3]]

Spouse: Adeliz
Death: bef 1130[3]

Children: Agnes
Matilda
William (-<1139)


1.1 William fitz William
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1139, d.s.p.l.[3],[2]

of Halton, Cheshire

Constable of Chester
succeeded his father before 1130:
' in that year rendered account in Leicestershire of 40
marks of silver for the fine which the king made for him
against the earl of Chester.' [EYC XII:143, cites Pipe
Roll 31 Hen. I, p. 88[3]]

cf. DP 486[2]

he d. without legitimate issue, his heirs being his
sisters Agnes and Maud: re: his illegitimate son Robert
le Constable, see EYC XII:142-5[3]

Spouse: NN

Children: Roger
Robert fitz William (->1184) [1.1.2 below]


1.1.1 Roger fitz William
----------------------------------------

evidently illegitimate

"Roger filio Willielmi constabularii" ['Roger son of
William the constable'], witnessed a charter of Robert
son of the earl [EYC XII:145-6[3]; text in Mon.Angl.
VI(2):956, Num. VI[4]]

possibly made a gift to his brother Robert of his lands
in Flamborough - the Visitation pedigree calls him
'Roger [de] Lacy' in error:
'Rogerus Lacy dedit villam de Flamburgh Roberto
fratri suo.'
'Robert Counstable Lord of Flamboroo, ex dono
Rogeri fratris sui.'
[Visitation of Yorkshire, p. 64[7]]


1.1.2 Robert fitz William le Constable
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1184[3]

illegitimate son

acquired a moiety of Holme upon Spaldingmore by marriage
[EYC XII:144[3]]

' Robert son of the constable', witness to charters of
Gilbert de Gant, earl of Lincoln to Bridlington priory,
1147-1156 [EYC XII:144, cites EYC II, no. 1157, 1219[3]]

'Robert son of William the constable of Chester', witness
to charter of Earl Gilbert to Rufford Abbey (1146-8 or
later) [EYC XII:144, cites Mon. Ang. v, 518[3]]

fl. in 1185 [EYC XII:144, ref. to Pipe Roll 31 Hen. II,
p. 75[3]]

identified as distinct from his son Robert 'II' by
L. C. Loyd [Farrer, EYC XII:144[3]]
________________________

possibly received his brother Roger's lands in Flamborough by his gift
- the Visitation pedigree calls his brother 'Roger de Lacy' in error
[Visitation of Yorkshire, p. 64[7]]

Note: his wife was previously identified as a coheir of
William Tison. See Rosie Bevan, et al., <The Other Heir
of Magister Roger de Arundel> [17]

Spouse: NN

Children: Robert (-<1208)


1.1.2.1 Robert le Constable
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1208[3],[8]

of Flamborough and Holme upon Spalding Moor, co. Yorks.

' Roberto Constabulario de Holme ', witness of the gift of
his cousin John de Beauver 'in pure alms' of 7 acres and
appurtenances in Holme to the church of St. Germanus of
Selby [Selby Cartulary, No. DCCXX pp. 26-27[9] ]

' Robertus Constabularius del Holme ', made a gift of land
in Holme adjacent to their lands of 'Huluerhirst' and
'Altunacroft' - Selby Cartulary, No. DCCXXVIII pp. 31-32[9]

identified as distinct from his father Robert, son of
William, by L. C. Loyd [Farrer, EYC XII:144[3]]

' Robertus constabularius de Flamesburgh', gave 40 bovates
of land in Hilderthorp to Watton priory, witnessed by his
wife's uncle Master Roger Arundel ("magistro Rogero
Arundel") and others [Mon. Angl. VI(2):955, Num. V[4]]

" Robertus constabularius de Fleynesburgh et Willelmus
filius suus ", granted a charter to North Ormsby priory of
pasture in Holme upon Spalding Moor for specified numbers
of animals and 11 acres of land, for 10 marks of silver
and 44d. yearly, before 1208. Witnesses, William fitz
Peter of Goodmanham, Richard de la Hay [" Willelmo filio
Petri de Gudmundham, Ricardo de la Hay,..."] and others.
[EYC XII:94-95, no. 70, cites Transcripts of Gilbertine
Charters, p. 65]

cf. EYC XII:146[3]
Rosie Bevan, et al., <The Other Heir of Magister
Roger de Arundel> [17]

Spouse: Eufemia Tison
Father: William Tison (-<1181)
Mother: Alice

Children: William
Agnes, m. Philip de la Haye


1.1.2.1.1 William le Constable
----------------------------------------

of Flamborough, co. Yorks.

grantor (together with his father) of a charter to North
Ormsby priory, dated before 1208:
" Robertus constabularius de Fleynesburgh et Willelmus
filius suus ", granted a charter to North Ormsby priory
of pasture in Holme upon Spalding Moor for specified
numbers of animals and 11 acres of land, for 10 marks
of silver and 44d. yearly, before 1208. Witnesses,
William fitz Peter of Goodmanham, Richard de la Hay
[" Willelmo filio Petri de Gudmundham, Ricardo de la
Hay,..."] and others. [EYC XII:94-95, no. 70, cites
Transcripts of Gilbertine Charters, p. 65]

" WILL's COSTAB' de FLEMBURG' ", mandated as to the seisin
of Thomas de Birkin, Nicholas de Anesty and others of
their inheritance from Magister Roger de Arundel, 19
June 1221:
' 5o HEN. III. A.D. 1221

Ebor.
Rex Vic Ebor salt. Si WILL's COSTAB' de FLEMBURG't JOH's de
BEAUVER copticipes THOME de HOTHU NICH'I de ANESTI
t THOME de BIRKIN de tris q funt MAG'RI ROG'I de ARUNDELL'
fecint te secur de reddendo nob q*ntu ad eos ptinet de
debito qd ide Magr Rogus cuj hedes ipi sut nob debuit
ita qd respodeat in nob ad sccm Sci Mich anno r. n. v*. de
tio Sci Johis Bapt pximo ptito t de eod tio Sci Mich t sic
deinceps ad alios tminos q pdcis Thome de Hothu Nicho
de Anesti t Thome de Birkin costituti sut ad sccm ni*m:
tuc su diloe plena saisina hre facias pdcis Willo t Johi
de ptibus suis q eos contigut de pdcis tris in bailla tua
de quib* dissaisiti funt occoe pdci debiti.
T. H. tc. ap Ebor xix. die Jun. ' [Excerpta I:66][10]

" Willelmus Constabularius de Flainburg' ", gave his assart
'called Huluerhirst' and other lands in Holme to the church
of St. Germanus of Selby, witnessed by Gerard Salvain and
his cousin John de Beauver [Selby Cartulary, No. DCCXXIX
p. 32[9]]

William de 'Flemesburgh' , gave lands in Pickwell and
Leesthorpe, co. Leics. (1/3 of 13 bovates) to Stephen
de Segrave, ca. 1222-1241 [Nichols, Vol. I, Appendix
XIII: Chartulary of the Honour of Segrave, p. 119,
no. 182][11]

inherited lands in Nafferton (Dickering wapentake), co.
Yorks. as a coheir of Magister Roger Arundel [VCH Yorks.,
II:287[5]]

his inheritance from Master Roger Arundel incl. a quarter
of the advowson of Foston church, Foston on the Wolds.,
Dickering wapentake in East Riding, co. Yorks. [VCH
Yorks., II:180 et seq.[5]]

exchanged certain lands of the Arundel inheritance with
John de Beauvoir [A2A, East Riding of Yorkshire Archives
and Records Service: Chichester-Constable Family
[DDCC/111 - DDCC/135], DDCC/135/2/p64/1[12]

actual lands in Foston which may have been inherited have
not been proved
_________________________

referred to in a suit dated 1298 against his grandson:
' 14. A.D. 1298. - The Prior of Brydelington v. William
le Conestable of Flaynburgh for distraining four horses,
beasts of the plough at Flaynburgh, contrary to law, and
also for impounding 9 score and 18 sheep. The defendant
says that he took the horses because they were in his
corn; and as to the sheep, he says that the Prior holds
two tofts and five bovates of land of him in Flaynburgh
by homage and fealty, of which services William le
Constable his grandfather (whose heir he is) was in
seisin at the hands of Thomas, formerly Prior, and as
the homage was in arrear, he distrained the present
Prior. ' [YAS XVII:21, cites De Banco, East. 26 Edw.
I. m. 45 d.[14]]

his grandson " Dominus Willelmus Constabularius de
Flainburg' ", made an inspeximus of the gifts of land in
Holme to St. Germanus of Selby by his ancestors Adam
Tison, William Tison, William le Constable his
grandfather and Robert le Constable his father ' in
free, pure and perpetual alms' [ ' Willelmus, avus
meus, et Robertus, pater meus, dederunt dictis
religiosis in li., pur et perp. el. ' ] - Selby
Cartulary DCCXXXII, pp. 33-35
_________________________

re: his wife Juliana:

Gift dated ca. 1267/90 :
' Matilda daughter of Robert son of Godfrey de Holm to
Juliana (Gillian) de Dayvill wife of William the Constable
property selion in Bonnecroft, lying between the sections
sometime of Peter Bernard and of Thomas de Belvero Witn.
Laurence de Flamburg.' - A2A, East Riding of Yorkshire
Archives and Records Service: Chichester-Constable Family
[DDCC/111 - DDCC/135], DDCC/135/2/p24/2[12]

Gift:
' Matilda daughter of Robert son of Godfrey de Holm to
Juliana de Eyvil widow of William the Constable property
1 selion in Barnecroft (lying between selions sometimes
of Peter Bernard and of Thomas de Belvero Witn. Laurence
de Fleineburo, Roger de Lyverseg, Odo de Greynesby,
Geoffrey de Mora, Jordan de Mora, Reginald son of
Godfrey, William the clerk.' A2A, East Riding of
Yorkshire Archives and Records Service:
Chichester-Constable Family [DDCC/111 - DDCC/135],
DDCC/135/2/p58/1[12]

fl. 1267 [EYC XII:147[3]; also PRO, as above]

_______________________________

cf. EYC XII:146-7[11]
J. Ravilious and Rosie Bevan, 'Magister Roger de
Arundel and the Birkins of Laxton, co. Notts.'[15]
J.C.B. Sharp, 'Constable Connections!'[8]

Spouse: Juliana de Daiville
Death: aft 23 Nov 1267[16],[12],[3]
Father: John de Daiville, of Egmanton, Notts. (->1228)
Mother: Maud de Percy

Children: Robert (-<1272)
Richard (->1258)
John
Henry
Theobald


1.1.2.1.1.1 Robert le Constable
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1272[8]

of Flamborough, co. Yorks.

held half a knight's fee in co. Yorks. of Roger de
Mowbray, evidently in Holme upon Spaldingmore, together
with John de Beauver [EYC XII:147, cites Bk of Fees,
p. 1097[3]]

knight, as recorded 22 April 1246 and 30 Sept 1251[3]

agreement between William de Vescy and Robert le Constable
dated 24 February 1246-7, witnessed by Peter de la Hay of
Spaldington and others [EYC XII:88[3]]

' Between 1231 and 1249 Agnes of Newton, daughter of Otes of
Flamborough, gave 2 1/2 bovates to Robert the Constable. '
[VCH Yorks., II:155, cites E.R.R.O., DDCC/App.A/p. 46,
no. 2[5]]

Quitclaim dated c. 1260:
' William de Fenwye rector of Bolingbroc to his lord Sir
Robert the Constable son of Sir William the Constable
property all claim he might have in Sir R's. fee of Holm
of the gift of Sir W. Rendering 12d. yearly to the church
of All Saints of Holm to buy wine for services.
Witn. Sir John parson of Holm, Thomas de Hotham, Jordan
son of Godfrey, John Hubert, William Armigero, Henry the
Constable, Richard de Cokerington. ' - A2A, East Riding
of Yorkshire Archives and Records Service:
Chichester-Constable Family [DDCC/111 - DDCC/135],
DDCC/135/2/p45/2[12]

record of an agreement with Bridlington priory, dated
'the day of St Clement' [23 Nov] 1267:
' In the year of grace 1267, the day of St Clement, Pope
and Martyr, in the Church of St Oswald of Flaynburg,
present Sirs (dominis) William de Rudstan and James de
Mora, kts, (fo. 131b) and also the fishermen,
parishioners of Flaynburg, the contention raised between
the Prior and Convent of Bridel[ington] of the one part
and Dom. Robert Constable and his men, fishers of
Flaynburg, of the other, respecting the tithes of
fishing, was amicably settled in this mode: - Robert
for himself and his heirs, with the assent of the lady
Juliana his mother,...' [Chart. Bridlington, pp.
178-9[16]; ref. also EYC XII:147, cites Bridlington
priory, p. 178[3]]

Quitclaim, dated aft. 1267:
' Peter Bernard of Holm to Dame Juliana Deyvil and her son
Sir Robert the Constable, property: assart called Bulmar
and all his other assarts and inclosures in Holm since
Thurs. before Exaltation of Holy Cross Reserving common
of pasture after hay and corn have been carried away.
Witn. Sir John the parson of Holm.' - A2A, East
Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records Service:
Chichester-Constable Family [DDCC/111 - DDCC/135],
DDCC/135/2/p10/1[12]

named in grant to his wife, dated 'c. early 13th cent.'
[in error; est. ca. 1270-1280]:
' Robert Salvayn son of Sir Gerard Salvayne to Dame Agnes
wife of Sir Robert de Flaynburge the Constable property
Robert Paris with all his family and chattels
Witn. William de Holm. '
- A2A, East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records
Service: Chichester-Constable Family [DDCC/111 - DDCC/135],
DDCC/135/2/p25/1[12]

charter of Robert le Constable of Flamborough to priory
of St. German, Selby of his lands and claims in
'Risebriggker', witnessed by his cousin Sir Adam de
Everingham, 1272 or before [Coucher Book of Selby p. 36,
No. DCCXXXVI[9]]

Spouse: Agnes

Children: Sir William (->1319)
John
Robert
Lettice, m. Thomas de Houton


1. Paul C. Reed, FASG, "Re: WILLIAM FITZNIGEL, CONSTABLE
OF CHESTER, LORD OF HALTON CASTLE," June 23, 1998,
[email protected], cites Geoffrey Barraclough
("Some charters of the Earls of Chester"), 28-9,, in
_A Medieval Misceellany for Doris Mary Stenton _ [Pipe
Roll Society, 1962].
2. Katherine S. B. Keats-Rohan, "Domesday People," The
Boydell Press, 1999, Vol. I: A Prosopography of Persons
Occurring in English Documents 1066-1166, cites Robert
de Torigni, Interpolations to Gesta Normannorum Ducum
of Guillaume of Jumieges, (ed. van Houts, ii, 270) and
identification of Gilbert fitzRichard as uncle of Meen,
seigneur de Fougeres (Rouleau Mortuaire du B. Vital
abbe de Savigni, edition phototypique par L. Delisle
Paris (1909), titre no. 182).
3. William Farrer, Hon.D.Litt., Editor, "Early Yorkshire
Charters," Edinburgh: Ballantyne, Hanson & Co.,
1915-1916, Vol. I (1914), Vol. II (1915) Vol. III
(1916), Vol. XII [the family of Constable of
Flamborough], courtesy Rosie Bevan, Vol. V [Manfield
fee, pp. 53-58 ], courtesy Rosie Bevan, Vol. IX
[Stuteville fee].
4. Sir William Dugdale, "Monasticon Anglicanum," London:
Harding & Lepard; and Longman Rees... Green, 1830,
Vol. VI, Pt. 1 - Austin Abbey of Wigmore, in
Herefordshire, pp. 348-356 [Fundationis et Fundatorum
Historia], Vol. VI, Pt. 2 - Priory of Bullington, co.
Lincs., pp. 951-954, URL http://monasticmatrix.usc.edu/bibliogra ... il&id=2659.
5. K. J. Allison, ed., "A History of the County of York,
East Riding," Oxford: published for the Institute of
Historical Research, Oxford Univ. Press, 1974, Vol. II.
6. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 -
[microprint, 1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage
of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the
United Kingdom.
7. "The Visitation of Yorkshire," Harleian Soc., William
Flower, Esquire, Norroy King of Arms, Harleian Series,
Vol. 16, Mitchell and Hughes, Printers, London, 1881,
'The Visitation of Yorkshire in the Years 1563 and 1564'
8. J. C. B. Sharp, "Constable Connections!," Sept 15,
2000, [email protected], citing C. T. Clay,
Early Yorkshire Charteres, xii, pp. 142-151.
9. The Rev. J. T. Fowler, M.A., F.S.A., "The Coucher Book
of Selby [Cartularium Abbathiae S. Germani de
Seleby]," The Yorkshire Archaeological and
Topographical Association, Record Series, Vol. II
(Record series vol. XIII) - 1893.
10. Charles Roberts, ed., "Excerpta ex Rotulis Finium,"
The Commissioners of the Public Records of the Kingdom,
Vol I (1216-1246), 1835, full title: Excerpta e Rotulis
Finium in Turri Londinensi asservatis, Henrico Tertio
Rege, A.D. 1216-1272.
11. John Nichols, F.S.A., "The History and Antiquities of
the County of Leicester," London: Printed By and For
John Nichols, 1795, Vol. I, Appendix XIII: Chartulary
of the Honour of Segrave; Vol. II, Pt. II (Gartre
Hundred); Vol. III, Pt. I (East Gascote Hundred) - 1800.
12. "Access to Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
13. Rosie Bevan, "Re: Magister Roger de Arundel and the
Birkins of Laxton, co. Notts.," June 14, 2003,
[email protected], cites EYC X pp. 170-2
(Trussebut fee), XI pp. 196-202 (Percy fee), and XII
pp. 144-6 (Tison fee) re: William de Arundel, of
Foston on the Wolds, co.Yorks., & c.
14. William Paley Baildon, F.S.A., "Notes on the Religious
and Secular Houses of Yorkshire, Vol. I," The Yorkshire
Archaeological Society Record Series, Vol. XVII,
Printed for the Society, 1894.
15. John P. Ravilious, "Re: Magister Roger de Arundel and
the Birkins of Laxton, co. Notts.," April 18, 2003,
[email protected], cites charter of John de
Birkin, Joan his wife and Dionisia (her sister) widow
of William de Glanville, to monks of Watton (Records
of the Anglo-Norman House of Glanville,, text at
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepage ... oanhg2.htm
16. W. T. Lancaster, F.S.A., ed., "Abstracts of the
Charters and other documents contained in the Chartulary
of the Priory of Bridlington," Leeds: J. Whitehead and
Son, printers, 1912.
17. Rosie Bevan, John Watson, and Michael Andrews-Reading,
The Other Heir of Magister Roger de Arundel, SGM, May
2007.


* John P. Ravilious


On Jan 14, 1:16 pm, mrdgen <[email protected]> wrote:

Greetings from a new list member!

I have been reading through the list archives for several years now,
and I must admit that I am thoroughly confused about the ancestry of
Robert le Constable of Flamborough, Yorkshire.

Specifically, in a thread entitled "Essex/Valognes/Fitz John", the
archives show a message from John Ravilious (dated 16 May 2004), in
which unshown descendants of Richard Fitz Eustace are suggested by the
line "from whom LACY Earls of Lincoln CONSTABLE of Flamborough, & c."
This agrees with several other posts in the archives which state that
Robert le Constable was a brother of Roger de Lacy, and indeed
received Flamborough from Roger de Lacy.

On the other hand, there is the thread entitled "Thomas de Thweng (d.
1374), and the Constables of Flamborough". In that thread, the
archives show a message from
John Ravilious (dated 4 October 2004) in which Robert le Constable of
Flamborough
was the son of Robert fitz William, son of William fitz William, who
was the son of William fitz Nigel.

Any help in resolving this?

Mike Darnel

[wjhonson]

On Jan 12, 11:38 pm, "Gordon and Jane Kirkemo" <[email protected]>
wrote:

Cecily Bonville
Mary de Grey
Katherine Devereux
Walter Baskerville
James Baskerville
Sybil Baskerville

An alternate version of this section states that James Baskerville's
grandmother was named Sybil Devereux which would of course help to
explain the name he gives his daughter.

See Vis Shropshire 1623 here
http://books.google.com/books?id=0RAuZK ... #PPA387,M1

Will Johnson

[Ray O'Hara]

"Young John" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

Peter Jason wrote:
"Eugene Griessel" <[email protected]
wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
"Ray O'Hara" <[email protected]> wrote:

"D. Spencer Hines" <[email protected]
wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
An excellent obituary in The New York
Times, filled with detail -- and
better than that in The Times.

For Example:

"In 1960, Sir Edmund led a highly
publicized but unsuccessful search for
the
Abominable Snowman. And in 1985,
accompanied by Neil Armstrong, the first
man on the moon, Sir Edmund flew a
twin-engine ski plane over the Arctic
and
landed at the North Pole. He thus became
the first to stand at both poles
and on the summit of Everest."

DSH


He cheated. He used oxygen!


He was told by some doctors that it was physically impossible to get to
the summit of Everest without it. No one had done it before. His attempt
was the equivalent of going to space, for the times.

any reasonbly fit person who can afford the fees can summit mt everest.
K2,goodwin-austen, is the real challenge for climbers.

[Robert Peffers]

"The Fifeshire Bimbo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

"Spacy Bickerson" <[email protected]> wrote
"Josiah Jenkins" <[email protected]> wrote
"Spacy Bickerson" <[email protected]> wrote:

snip
.My ancestors came from Glasgow and found his use of the
Glaswegian dialect fascinating - though I have never actually
heard it spoken and I am at least three generations removed
from that city.

No idea how these relate to Fraser's attempts but I can asure
you that these two sound clips are genuine Glasgow accents.

Two ladies in conversation : http://tinyurl.com/2pozo6

All three sound very much alike ... a Fifer speaking panloaf

Paul Jamieson who does loads of TV and radio voiceovers :
http://www.svmk.co.uk/all_male.php

Same here. Also I couldn't detect much of a difference between the
American and the Canadian.

thank you!!!

Actually the Weegie sounded more like an Edinburger than anything else.
--
The real Auld Bob Peffers,
Kelty,
Fife,
Scotland, (UK).

[Robert Peffers]

"Jack Linthicum" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:a95200a5-1491-4a45-84be-639c43ec5ffd@n22g2000prh.googlegroups.com...

On Jan 14, 12:35 pm, "The Fifeshire Bimbo"
[email protected]> wrote:
"Spacy Bickerson" <[email protected]> wrote

"Josiah Jenkins" <[email protected]> wrote
"Spacy Bickerson" <[email protected]> wrote:

snip
.My ancestors came from Glasgow and found his use of the
Glaswegian dialect fascinating - though I have never actually
heard it spoken and I am at least three generations removed
from that city.
No idea how these relate to Fraser's attempts but I can asure
you that these two sound clips are genuine Glasgow accents.

Two ladies in conversation :http://tinyurl.com/2pozo6

All three sound very much alike ... a Fifer speaking panloaf

Paul Jamieson who does loads of TV and radio voiceovers :
http://www.svmk.co.uk/all_male.php

Same here. Also I couldn't detect much of a difference between the
American
and the Canadian.

thank you!!!

The Canadians say "favour" and the Americans "favor"

Aye, but do the Canadians wear their pants on the outside?

[Young John]

Ray O'Hara wrote:

"Young John" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Peter Jason wrote:
"Eugene Griessel" <[email protected]
wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
"Ray O'Hara" <[email protected]> wrote:

"D. Spencer Hines" <[email protected]
wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
An excellent obituary in The New York
Times, filled with detail -- and
better than that in The Times.

For Example:

"In 1960, Sir Edmund led a highly
publicized but unsuccessful search for
the
Abominable Snowman. And in 1985,
accompanied by Neil Armstrong, the first
man on the moon, Sir Edmund flew a
twin-engine ski plane over the Arctic
and
landed at the North Pole. He thus became
the first to stand at both poles
and on the summit of Everest."

DSH

He cheated. He used oxygen!

He was told by some doctors that it was physically impossible to get to
the summit of Everest without it. No one had done it before. His attempt
was the equivalent of going to space, for the times.


any reasonbly fit person who can afford the fees can summit mt everest.
K2,goodwin-austen, is the real challenge for climbers.

Everything's easier when someone has led the way, but there are plenty
of dead bodies on Everest to attest to the fact that it isn't as easy as
you suggest. Before modern weather forecasts, it was an extremely
hazardous thing to do, and before Hunt's expedition, no-one had done it.

but you missed the point.

Doctors told them that there wasn't enough oxygen to survive at that
altitude, which is why they used it.

[Gjest]

On Jan 14, 12:46�pm, [email protected] wrote:

Emmett we're talking however about the *Stanleys* and so what happened �
centuries earlier isn't going to be relevant. �Unless you're making a *new* �claim
that the "King of Man" title was never properly vested by the Sovereign in �
the Stanley's in the first place.

And then of course I'm the King of Man.

Will Johnson

**************Start the year off right. �Easy ways to stay in shape. � �http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

Good Evening Will et al,
So sorry, I thought you were referiing to the state of the Isle of Man
in General. No Problem, I can re-adjust.

THE SALE OF ISLE OF MAN

Again, that is a yes, with a capital YES. as you know the Isle of Man*
was sold to the Crown by the "Act of Revestment" in 1765 (by Amelia
Sophie greatgrandaughter of John, 3rd Earl of Atholl, she was a
Strange of the Barons Strange) excepting the Manorial Rights, (there
were Baronies still on the island or had been), The Patronage of the
Bishopric, the Mines, Minerals and Treasure Troves. The latter of
these were purchased by the Crown from their son, John, in 1825. The
Crown paid a total of 446,114 pounds for the above. What the money
today would be with inflation etc. I do not know but would be a goodly
amount I would surmise back then?

* Possessorship of the Isle of Man had always included the title and
in some cases the word (titular king) (I am not sure when that was
written what it exactly was construed to mean but would surmise that
of a lesser king to a High King or the equivalent of a Duke or Earl
to the King of England??!) was used historically and thru the
Stanleys.

I REFUTE THE LEGAL POSSESSION OF THE ISLE OF MAN AND TITLE KING OF MAN
THAT THE STANLEYS HAD AS IT WAS AN ILLEGAL GRANT MADE BY HENRY IV AND
JAMES I LAW LORDS ALSO SUBSTANTIATE THAT FACT!

Even King James I, 1605 Law Lords who gave their opinion, as per the
document I e-mailed you, Will, stated it was an illegal grant by the
laws then and at the time of Henry IV grant (actually 3 points of
contention of the illegality of the charter, not just one) to Sir John
Stanley I., that is because the escheat laws of attainder etc. (went
back to I believe Edward I, I can get them for you if you want), and
Lord Percy had NOT been attainted when the grant to the Stanleys was
made! Yes you are correct, I refute the claim the Stanleys had as to
the possession of the Isle of Man and the title, King of Man!!!!!!!!
Merely because John Stanley II had himself invested in 1414/15 with
the ceremonies of King of Man and exercisesd those rights did not mean
it was legal, it merely went unchallenged until 1605 and then again,
as I have written, in 1667 by the Bishopric of Man. That is why in the
hereditary dispute of 1605, that when it was finally resolved in 1610
it was re-assigned to the Stanleys-NOT re-granted or a confirmation of
the original charter as normally would have been done!!!!!!!!
FURTHER; I believe that the grant of arms and the opinion of
Clarenciex King at Arms (Sir John Van Brugh) to James, Duke of Atholl
Feb. 1735, IF based on the Stanley descent, was wrong and illegal,
but surmise (and is only my personal summation ) he may have been
descended from one of the more earlier line holders of the title King
of Man and that this grant of arms for quartering purposes, was only
incidental to his also timely possessorship of the Isle of Man, but
obviously one of great conveniance.

REGARDING THE STANLEY CHARTER

I will have to dig it out, the wording is exactly the same as the
Percy charter but the name and date ad basically the same as the
Montacute charter excepting the fees of the Bishopric of Man that went
to the crown rather than to Percy and Stanley.
While I look for it, I will put the charter in the another post. It
may be in a couple of parts as it is long and wordier than I am in my
writing and will take time as recognizing typing(spelling mistakes )
will be even more difficult as I can read latin, typing it is another
story and they still used phonetic spellling in those days that is not
necesarily correct if you understand what I mean, doubly difficult.

I hope this answered some of your questions Will.
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler
ps I really want to go back to the Botelers, but wanted to correct
some mis-thoughts on the Isle of Man, by the way what is this person
Howe want or think or what is going on? Is he a Stanley descendant? if
so he might as well go home as he has no connection to the Isle of
Mann, it was sold, as to the title, only if he can show descent pre-
Stanley does the title exist and that would be "STYLED' King of man,
land and title went hand in hand, and if he is really really serious
to get a grant of arms is quite stringent!!

[wjhonson]

On Jan 14, 5:45 pm, [email protected] wrote:

THE SALE OF ISLE OF MAN

Again, that is a yes, with a capital YES. as you know the Isle of Man*
was sold to the Crown by the "Act of Revestment" in 1765 (by Amelia
Sophie greatgrandaughter of John, 3rd Earl of Atholl, she was a
Strange of the Barons Strange)

You're reading the wrong book!
Charlotte Murray, *wife* of John Murray, 3rd Earl of Atholl is the
person who sold, to the Crown sovereignty of the Isle of Man in 1765.
Charlotte was sole heiress of her father James Murray, 2nd Duke of
Atholl, and she ended up marrying her cousin John Murray who became
the 3rd Duke of Atholl, and Lord of Man jure uxoris for about a year.

Amelia Sophia Stanley who died 22 Feb 1702/3 was the grandmother of
this Charlotte Murray. Amelia married John Murray, 1st marquess of
Atholl. He died just after she did. He died 6 May 1703

Amelia was the heiress, in her issue, to Man because she was the
sister of Charles Stanley, 8th Earl of Derby and Lord of Man (born
1628). His line having completely died away.

Even King James I, 1605 Law Lords who gave their opinion, as per the
document I e-mailed you, Will, stated it was an illegal grant by the
laws then and at the time of Henry IV grant (actually 3 points of
contention of the illegality of the charter, not just one) to Sir John
Stanley I., that is because the escheat laws of attainder etc. (went
back to I believe Edward I, I can get them for you if you want), and
Lord Percy had NOT been attainted when the grant to the Stanleys was
made!  Yes you are correct, I refute the claim the Stanleys had as to
the possession of the Isle of Man and the title, King of Man!!!!!!!!

So are you saying that I a Percy descendent can now claim the Isle of
Man? Cuz I'm raring to go!

in 1667 by the Bishopric of Man. That is why in the
hereditary dispute of 1605, that when it was finally resolved in 1610
it was re-assigned to the Stanleys-NOT re-granted or a confirmation of
the original charter as normally would have been done!!!!!!!!

You're not using enough exclamatin points. So did the poor Percys get
ANYTHING?!?!?!?!? After all, our fatherland, our heartland, the very
essence of our soul was ripped from us by that demon Henry IV. As you
can see I'm all pumped up about it.

ps I really want to go back to the Botelers, but wanted to correct
some mis-thoughts on the Isle of Man, by the way what is this person
Howe want or think or what is going on? Is he a Stanley descendant? if
so he might as well go home as he has no connection to the Isle of
Mann, it was sold, as to the title, only if he can show descent pre-
Stanley does the title exist and that would be "STYLED' King of man,
land and title went hand in hand, and if he is really really serious
to get a grant of arms is quite stringent!!

The descent of the Isle of Man is documented on my site here
http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb ... l_of_Derby

David Howe is supposed, by his own research, to branch off the Bladen
descent from the Stanley's who held Man. Specifically, he states that
he is descendent of Jane Stanley who married Sir Robert Sheffield of
Butterwicke.

This Jane Stanley is supposed to be a daughter of George Lord Stanley
(d.v.p. about 4 Dec 1503) by his wife Joan Stange, 9th Baroness
Strange of Knockyn.

Will Johnson

[The Fifeshire Bimbo]

"Jack Linthicum" <[email protected]> wrote

"The Fifeshire Bimbo" <[email protected]> wrote:
"Josiah Jenkins" <[email protected]> wrote

Paul Jamieson who does loads of TV and radio voiceovers :
http://www.svmk.co.uk/all_male.php

Same here. Also I couldn't detect much of a difference between the
American
and the Canadian.

The Canadians say "favour" and the Americans "favor"

I love your sense of humour, or do you say humor?

[Ray O'Hara]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:09255343-44cd-4af8-89c9-09f57e06cea5@v67g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
:

"In 1960, Sir Edmund led a highly

He cheated. He used oxygen!

He was told by some doctors that it was physically impossible to get to
the summit of Everest without it. No one had done it before. His attempt
was the equivalent of going to space, for the times.

Did he get there first or was Tenzing there first?

hillary got their first.

[Ray O'Hara]

"Young John" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

any reasonbly fit person who can afford the fees can summit mt everest.
K2,goodwin-austen, is the real challenge for climbers.


Everything's easier when someone has led the way, but there are plenty
of dead bodies on Everest to attest to the fact that it isn't as easy as
you suggest. Before modern weather forecasts, it was an extremely
hazardous thing to do, and before Hunt's expedition, no-one had done it.

but you missed the point.

Doctors told them that there wasn't enough oxygen to survive at that
altitude, which is why they used it.

its still not a technical climb.
that's why tourists make the trip up everest.

[a.spencer3]

"Young John" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

Ray O'Hara wrote:
"Young John" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Peter Jason wrote:
"Eugene Griessel" <[email protected]
wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
"Ray O'Hara" <[email protected]> wrote:

"D. Spencer Hines" <[email protected]
wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
An excellent obituary in The New York
Times, filled with detail -- and
better than that in The Times.

For Example:

"In 1960, Sir Edmund led a highly
publicized but unsuccessful search for
the
Abominable Snowman. And in 1985,
accompanied by Neil Armstrong, the first
man on the moon, Sir Edmund flew a
twin-engine ski plane over the Arctic
and
landed at the North Pole. He thus became
the first to stand at both poles
and on the summit of Everest."

DSH

He cheated. He used oxygen!

He was told by some doctors that it was physically impossible to get to
the summit of Everest without it. No one had done it before. His
attempt
was the equivalent of going to space, for the times.


any reasonbly fit person who can afford the fees can summit mt everest.
K2,goodwin-austen, is the real challenge for climbers.


Everything's easier when someone has led the way, but there are plenty
of dead bodies on Everest to attest to the fact that it isn't as easy as
you suggest. Before modern weather forecasts, it was an extremely
hazardous thing to do, and before Hunt's expedition, no-one had done it.

but you missed the point.

Doctors told them that there wasn't enough oxygen to survive at that
altitude, which is why they used it.

And there still isn't.
'No oxygen' climbs are precarious in the extreme, and they still wouldn't
survive at that altitude, beyond a very brief visit.

Surreyman

[a.spencer3]

"Ray O'Hara" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

[email protected]> wrote in message
news:09255343-44cd-4af8-89c9-09f57e06cea5@v67g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
:

"In 1960, Sir Edmund led a highly

He cheated. He used oxygen!

He was told by some doctors that it was physically impossible to get
to
the summit of Everest without it. No one had done it before. His
attempt
was the equivalent of going to space, for the times.

Did he get there first or was Tenzing there first?

hillary got their first.


Their first what?

Surreyman

[a.spencer3]

"Ray O'Hara" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

"Young John" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

any reasonbly fit person who can afford the fees can summit mt
everest.
K2,goodwin-austen, is the real challenge for climbers.


Everything's easier when someone has led the way, but there are plenty
of dead bodies on Everest to attest to the fact that it isn't as easy as
you suggest. Before modern weather forecasts, it was an extremely
hazardous thing to do, and before Hunt's expedition, no-one had done it.

but you missed the point.

Doctors told them that there wasn't enough oxygen to survive at that
altitude, which is why they used it.

its still not a technical climb.
that's why tourists make the trip up everest.


Have you done it?

Surreyman

[Gjest]

On Jan 15, 2:52 pm, wjhonson <[email protected]> wrote:

On Jan 14, 5:45 pm, [email protected] wrote:

Even King James I, 1605 Law Lords who gave their opinion, as per the
document I e-mailed you, Will, stated it was an illegal grant by the
laws then and at the time of Henry IV grant (actually 3 points of
contention of the illegality of the charter, not just one) to Sir John
Stanley I., that is because the escheat laws of attainder etc. (went
back to I believe Edward I, I can get them for you if you want), and
Lord Percy had NOT been attainted when the grant to the Stanleys was
made!  Yes you are correct, I refute the claim the Stanleys had as to
the possession of the Isle of Man and the title, King of Man!!!!!!!!

So are you saying that I a Percy descendent can now claim the Isle of
Man?  Cuz I'm raring to go!

Not so fast, Johnson - although the Stanleys certainly were
illegitimate usurpers, I think you'll find the Percy descendants
forfeited their rights by not challenging the court case of 1598 - so
you're out. On the other hand, the grant of 19 October 1399 was to
Henry Percy *and his heirs*, and as I descend from one of his uncles,
the crown is clearly mine.

According to my barrister (actually a barista, but I sometimes have
spellng porblems) publishing my claim in a google newsgroup is
sufficient, and I hereby give notice that the 90 period for objections
commenced 90 days ago.

HRH MAR

[James Hogg]

On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 10:15:32 GMT, "a.spencer3"
<[email protected]> wrote:

"Ray O'Hara" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

[email protected]> wrote in message
news:09255343-44cd-4af8-89c9-09f57e06cea5@v67g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
:

"In 1960, Sir Edmund led a highly

He cheated. He used oxygen!

He was told by some doctors that it was physically impossible to get
to
the summit of Everest without it. No one had done it before. His
attempt
was the equivalent of going to space, for the times.

Did he get there first or was Tenzing there first?

hillary got their first.


Their first what?

Pint in

James

[Gjest]

On Jan 15, 3:51�am, [email protected] wrote:

On Jan 15, 2:52�pm, wjhonson <[email protected]> wrote:

On Jan 14, 5:45�pm, [email protected] wrote:

Even King James I, 1605 Law Lords who gave their opinion, as per the
document I e-mailed you, Will, stated it was an illegal grant by the
laws then and at the time of Henry IV grant (actually 3 points of
contention of the illegality of the charter, not just one) to Sir John
Stanley I., that is because the escheat laws of attainder etc. (went
back to I believe Edward I, I can get them for you if you want), and
Lord Percy had NOT been attainted when the grant to the Stanleys was
made! �Yes you are correct, I refute the claim the Stanleys had as to
the possession of the Isle of Man and the title, King of Man!!!!!!!!

So are you saying that I a Percy descendent can now claim the Isle of
Man? �Cuz I'm raring to go!

Not so fast, Johnson - although the Stanleys certainly were
illegitimate usurpers, I think you'll find the Percy descendants
forfeited their rights by not challenging the court case of 1598 - so
you're out. �On the other hand, the grant of 19 October 1399 was to
Henry Percy *and his heirs*, and as I descend from one of his uncles,
the crown is clearly mine.

According to my barrister (actually a barista, but I sometimes have
spellng porblems) publishing my claim in a google newsgroup is
sufficient, and I hereby give notice that the 90 period for objections
commenced 90 days ago.

HRH MAR

Good Morning Will and HRH MAR et al,
You are right Will, I should use my notes rather than memory , Amelia
Sophia just stuck out as it had led to another thought at that time of
writing the above post, my notes would have rectified it (egg on my
face), but the name Amelia Sophia had a continental ring to it, which
led to the thought at the time, a conjecture mind you, that:

From 1066 thru approx. Henry VIII, most kings and many other nobles
also held titles in continental Europe besides, it is there that the
land and title more or less, as I understand it, went hand in hand, be
it inheritance, marriage, land transfer or out right purchase and
still is today I understand.
This peculiarity of the Isle of Man, I surmise, survived because the
title King of Man had as overlord the King of Norway for abt 250 years
after the conquest anyway, until Alexander III of Scotland who was
King of Scotland & King of Man, later, Robert the Bruce, King of
Scotland-King of Man, back to the original decendants of the Kings of
Man the Montacutes and the Kings of England in-between, and so on, it
seemed normal to them as would be a most foreign concept to the
various Kings, Lords, etc. from about 1500 onward.

If Reginald had not gone to King John in 1205/6 for protection against
the King of Norway and John, rather than granting William de Burgo as
his Overlord-King, but rather gone in and claimed the Isle of Man as
his own and directly confronted and beat the King of Norway, this
oddity of the title King of Man would not be here for this discussion
today.
Ok you two would be claimants to the "styled" title King of Man, I am
sure you know the history, most of those Kings never ruled for more
than a year or so and were then very dead! "It's good to be King", but
not the King of Man.
A little early morning Humor.

Back to the Botelers then, Hurray!
Have a Fabulous day on that note.
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler

[Peter Stewart]

On Jan 16, 8:51 am, "Peter Stewart" <[email protected]> wrote:

"Stewart Baldwin" <[email protected]> wrote in message

news:[email protected]...

Anselme, vol. 2, p. 612 refers to a daughter of duke Guillaume-Sance of
Gascony named Gersende ("Guarsande"), who married a lord of Burgundy,
after whose death she returned to Gascony. He cites Spicilegium, vol. 13,
p. 149, a volume not available to me. She has been identified (I'm not
sure how reliably) as a second wife of duke Eudes-Henri of Burgundy
(brother of Hugues Capet, king of France). Beyond indications that
Eudes-Henri did have a wife named Gersende, there does not seem to be any
verification of this in Burgundian records. Can anybody tell me what the
Gascon records say about this? Can anybody quote the relevant passage from
Spicilegium?

The reference is to the quarto edition of Spicilegium - according to
Ferdinand Lot, _Études sur le règne de Hugues Capet et la fin du Xe siècle_
(1903), pp. 418-419, in the folio edition the extract is in vol. II, p. 588,
col. 1.

The source is the 14th-century 'Historia abbatiae Condomensis', from a
Gascon abbey: "Santio comes, post mortem Hugonis vim inferens, dedit suae
sorori, scilicet Guarsindae", and later in a notice within the same
compilation "Denique quaedam nobilissima femina, Gavarsens nomine dicta,
ejus [Gombaldi] videlicet neptis, soror Sanctii Guasconiae comitis, rediens
a quadam provincia, Burgundia vocata, ubi maritum habuerat, sicut mos est
pravorum suprascriptam ecclesiam violenter beato Petro arripuit".

An extract from 'Historia abbatiae Condomensis', reprinted from
Spicilegium vol. II, including the second passage above can be found
in _Recueil des historiens des Gaules et de la France_ XI on p. 396 at

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5 ... hemindefer

Peter Stewart

[Gjest]

On Jan 15, 4:57�pm, [email protected] wrote:

On Jan 16, 7:05�am, Nathaniel Taylor <[email protected]> wrote:





In article <[email protected]>,

�[email protected] wrote:
That is quite ridiculous. �You know and well as I you presumptuous �upstart
that by long-standing tradition, the headship of the Isle of Man is �settled
by a doughnut-eating contest ! �

By that measure, I'm sure from the look of him that the Maryland man
would do quite well. �(Though the Japanese man who always wins the
hot-dog-eating contests is actually quite small & skinny.)


Manx pretender would probably prefer a toblerone bar.


Good Afternoon,

Okay! I give up!! I'm an alien from another planet, living in a
cave, secluded, deep in the woods, and have no television, but what in
God's earth is a toblerone bar?
Bestest,
Emmett

[wjhonson]

On Jan 15, 3:18 pm, [email protected] wrote:

Manx pretender would probably prefer a toblerone bar.

Okay!  I give up!!  I'm an alien from another planet, living in a
cave, secluded, deep in the woods, and have no television, but what in
God's earth is a toblerone bar?
Bestest,
Emmett-

------------------
Now we see the truth.
Toblerone is a brandname for a particular candy bar.
Like Mars bar, Snickers bar, Hershey bar, etc.

I can't say I've ever eaten a Toblerone, they give me the *vague*
impression of being one of those horrid toffee-like coated bars that
fool you into thinking they'll taste good.

Will Johnson

[Gjest]

On Jan 15, 5:47�pm, wjhonson <[email protected]> wrote:

On Jan 15, 3:18�pm, [email protected] wrote:



Manx pretender would probably prefer a toblerone bar.

Okay! �I give up!! �I'm an alien from another planet, living in a
cave, secluded, deep in the woods, and have no television, but what in
God's earth is a toblerone bar?
Bestest,
Emmett-

------------------
Now we see the truth.

Evening Will,
I went to your site you had posted on the Stanleys, to check out this
Howe fellow, quite a nice sight he has. We all know, he won't make it
from the Stanleys,
Can't make it from George Stanley, alledged descendant from William
Montacute either, William Montacute legally sold it to William Scrope
and the Montacutes have no claim on the Isle as it was perfectly
legitimate..

On the other hand.....William Scrope is another matter.. remember I
went from memory on the above post, the Acts of Escheats of Attainder
and thought it was Ed I, I checked my data, wrong Edward, The Act, 34
Ed III, chapter 12, basically.. inhibiting escheators from claiming
lands on grounds of treason, surmising person then dead(executed) not
attained in their life time...., Henry IV had William Scrope and two
others after capture immediatley beheaded and later gave the lands to
Percy, then the basic thing with Percy, but Percy kept his head and
before legal attainder gave the Isle of Man to the Stanleys. Now this
Howe could make a claim but keeping in mind by his list, that person
is the 10th great -nephew and then several generations before it
reaches him, I have a feeling there are many in-line before he can be.
Besides it goes back to claimants as far as the de Burgos 1206 and
about 6-7 others before it reaches William Scrope.

Anyway thought I'd make mention of the above

I don't really like toffee, must be an east coast thing!
Have a great evening all
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler

[Stewart Baldwin]

"Peter Stewart" <[email protected]> wrote:

The reference is to the quarto edition of Spicilegium - according to
Ferdinand Lot, _Études sur le règne de Hugues Capet et la fin du Xe
siècle_ (1903), pp. 418-419, in the folio edition the extract is in vol.
II, p. 588, col. 1.

The source is the 14th-century 'Historia abbatiae Condomensis', from a
Gascon abbey: "Santio comes, post mortem Hugonis vim inferens, dedit suae
sorori, scilicet Guarsindae", and later in a notice within the same
compilation "Denique quaedam nobilissima femina, Gavarsens nomine dicta,
ejus [Gombaldi] videlicet neptis, soror Sanctii Guasconiae comitis,
rediens a quadam provincia, Burgundia vocata, ubi maritum habuerat, sicut
mos est pravorum suprascriptam ecclesiam violenter beato Petro arripuit".

This late source is the only one from Gascony that I am aware of for the
connection. I think Lot's 1903 work may be available on Google Books,
otherwise let me know if it would be useful for me to scan the pages &
send these by email.

Thank you for the reference. Volume 2 of the folio edition of Spicilegium is
available at Gallica, and I found the second quote ("Denique quaedam ...")
earlier in the work, at page 585, col. 1. This vague source would seem to
leave open the possibility that Gersende's husband was the same person as
Eudes-Henri of Burgundy. Does Lot say anything about this identification?
His work is evidently not available on Google Books, and I would appreciate
a copy of his discussion on this subject.

My interest in this is because of the statement by the History of the
bishops of Auxerre that [Eudes]-Henri married a sister of count Hugues of
Chalon (also bishop of Auxerre). The modern sources which discuss the origin
of Eudes-Henri's wife Gerberge (mother of Otte-Guillaume of Burgundy) seem
to gloss over the later marital history of Eudes-Henri, which is so
important for deducing the correct interpretation of this statement about
the marriage of the sister of Hugues.

Stewart Baldwin

[Peter Stewart]

"Stewart Baldwin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

"Peter Stewart" <[email protected]> wrote:

The reference is to the quarto edition of Spicilegium - according to
Ferdinand Lot, _Études sur le règne de Hugues Capet et la fin du Xe
siècle_ (1903), pp. 418-419, in the folio edition the extract is in vol.
II, p. 588, col. 1.

The source is the 14th-century 'Historia abbatiae Condomensis', from a
Gascon abbey: "Santio comes, post mortem Hugonis vim inferens, dedit suae
sorori, scilicet Guarsindae", and later in a notice within the same
compilation "Denique quaedam nobilissima femina, Gavarsens nomine dicta,
ejus [Gombaldi] videlicet neptis, soror Sanctii Guasconiae comitis,
rediens a quadam provincia, Burgundia vocata, ubi maritum habuerat, sicut
mos est pravorum suprascriptam ecclesiam violenter beato Petro arripuit".

This late source is the only one from Gascony that I am aware of for the
connection. I think Lot's 1903 work may be available on Google Books,
otherwise let me know if it would be useful for me to scan the pages &
send these by email.

Thank you for the reference. Volume 2 of the folio edition of Spicilegium
is available at Gallica, and I found the second quote ("Denique quaedam
...") earlier in the work, at page 585, col. 1. This vague source would
seem to leave open the possibility that Gersende's husband was the same
person as Eudes-Henri of Burgundy. Does Lot say anything about this
identification? His work is evidently not available on Google Books, and I
would appreciate a copy of his discussion on this subject.

There is not much discussion of the subject, this occurs in an appendix on
the dating of 'Rhythmus satiricus'. Lot noted that Gerberge of Chalon was
the first wife of Eudes Henri, married to him ca 974 and not heard of again
after April 986. From charter evidence he was remarried to Gersende of
Gascony by 11 May 993 when he made a donation to Saint-Symphorien d'Autun
requesting the monks to pray for him and his wife Gersende, who subscribed
the charter. The origin of this second wife is not given by any source
earlier than the history of Saint-Pierre abbey, as redacted in the 14th
century, that was printed in Spicilegium. So, after April 986 Eudes-Henri as
the widower of Gerberge of Chalon married Gersende of Gascony, whom he
repudiated in 996 or soon after.

My interest in this is because of the statement by the History of the
bishops of Auxerre that [Eudes]-Henri married a sister of count Hugues of
Chalon (also bishop of Auxerre). The modern sources which discuss the
origin of Eudes-Henri's wife Gerberge (mother of Otte-Guillaume of
Burgundy) seem to gloss over the later marital history of Eudes-Henri,
which is so important for deducing the correct interpretation of this
statement about the marriage of the sister of Hugues.

Lot does not go into this, but I suppose you are thinking of Szabolcs de
Vajay's miguided attempt to reinterpret that passage, in 'À propos de la
"Guerre de Bourgogne": note sur les successions de Bourgogne et de Mâcon aux
Xe et XIe siècles', _Annales de Bourgogne_ 24 (1962).

Vajay sought to establish that Gerberge was not the sister of Hugo, count of
Chalon and bishop of Auxerre, who was stated to have married Eudes-Henri,
duke of Burgundy, relying on a misunderstanding of the Auxerre narrative
("Contigit etiam tunc temporis, post mortem scilicet Henrici ducis, qui eius
[Hugonis episcopi] germanam uxorem duxerat, ut Burgundionum premaximi regi
Rotberto rebelles existerent"). Ill-advised on the Latin by Pierre Brère,
Vajay misinterpreted "tunc temporis" and the pluperfect verb "duxerat" to
mean that Hugo's sister was still married to Eudes-Henri at the time of his
death, in October 1002, whereas the meaning of the passage is literally as
follows: "It happened also at that time, after the death of Duke Henri, who
had married his [Hugo of Chalon's] sister, that the magnates of Burgundy
were in rebellion against King Robert".



On this basis Vajay conjectured that Hugo's full-sister Mathilde was the
wife of Eudes-Henri, and therefore that she was remarried to Geoffroy II,
seigneur of Semur, ca 1003 after the death of her purported first husband.
However, this is impossible since Thibaud of Semur, the eldest son of
Mathilde and Geoffroy, was already recognised as heir to his uncle Hugo as
count of Chalon before February/March 999 (when Hugo named his nephew
Thibaud as having an interest in his donation while using only the comital
title for himself, in a charter for Paray-le-Monial priory, and therefore
prior to his becoming bishop of Auxerre after which he called himself bishop
rather than count).



Peter Stewart

[D. Spencer Hines]

His take is "be careful, and beware the Hillary Step."

Yep...

DSH

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

D. Spencer Hines wrote:

Please tell us about your impressions of _Into Thin Air: A Personal
Account of the Mt. Everest Disaster_, Jon Krakauer's excellent book.

I have not read it. I have seen the cable TV account based on it.
I am so bothered by the hype and backbiting and "spin" that I simply
am befuddled beyond comment, other than "be careful".

I have read Ed Viestur's book "No Shortcuts to the Top: Climbing the
World's 14 Highest Peaks" in which he briefly discusses that day.
His take is "be careful, and beware the Hillary Step."

Doug McDonald

[D. Spencer Hines]

It's an EXCELLENT book.

Get the illustrated edition -- hardcover.

_Into The Wild _ is also superb -- in the tradition of Jack London's _To
Build A Fire_.

DSH

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

D. Spencer Hines wrote:

Please tell us about your impressions of _Into Thin Air: A Personal
Account
of the Mt. Everest Disaster_, Jon Krakauer's excellent book.

I have not read it. I have seen the cable TV account based on it.
I am so bothered by the hype and backbiting and "spin" that I simply
am befuddled beyond comment, other than "be careful".

I have read Ed Viestur's book "No Shortcuts to the Top: Climbing the
World's 14 Highest Peaks" in which he briefly discusses that day.
His take is "be careful, and beware the Hillary Step."

Doug McDonald

Please tell us about your impressions of _Into Thin Air: A Personal Account
of the Mt. Everest Disaster_, Jon Krakauer's excellent book.

"_Into Thin Air_ is a riveting first-hand account of a catastrophic
expedition up Mount Everest. In March 1996, _Outside_ magazine sent veteran
journalist and seasoned climber Jon Krakauer on an expedition led by
celebrated Everest guide Rob Hall. Despite the expertise of Hall and the
other leaders, by the end of summit day eight people were dead."

"Krakauer's book is at once the story of the ill-fated adventure and an
analysis of the factors leading up to its tragic end. Written within months
of the events it chronicles, _Into Thin Air_ clearly evokes the majestic
Everest landscape. As the journey up the mountain progresses, Krakauer puts
it in context by recalling the triumphs and perils of other Everest trips
throughout history. The author's own anguish over what happened on the
mountain is palpable as he leads readers to ponder timeless questions."

The book should make an excellent film someday.

_Into The Wild_, Krakauer's other excellent book on a similar theme, has
been filmed in a 2007 release.

DSH

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

Ray O'Hara wrote:


any reasonably fit person who can afford the fees can summit mt everest.
K2,goodwin-austen, is the real challenge for climbers.

That's not true, at least, not with present oxygen technology. There
are people who are extremely fit, at low altidude, and simply poop
out high up. Even oxygen is not a panacea: the low pressure itself
presents problems. Now if there were an oxygen pipeline up to the top,
so you could recharge oxygen tanks .... or even
just a electric line to recharge batteries for space suits and compress
air ...

I'm a reasonably fit person who actually has been there, just
to gawk at it, at 19,000 feet, which is a nice walk in the park.
I'm not confident I could do it, though people a few
years older than I have. I do say that I would have a respectable chance.

Everest **IS** technical, even though it's easy technical. Even fixed
ropes
can be very tiring indeed. And there are "crux" pitches where you
have to stand in line for the single-path fixed rope. This
standing around has actually killed people.

I'm likely the only person posting from s.g.m or s.h.m who actually
has seriously considered trying. Today it is not a close call,
I'm not. BUT ... if I had known 40 years ago that you could pay
somebody $75,000 to drag you up, I am quite confident that I would
have dedicated a goodly part of my life to getting ready to do it
before I was too old.

I have actually climbed with people who have been up Everest,
as well as other 8000 m peaks. And let me tell you, ALL those that have,
impress. EVEN THE TOURISTS. And, even the impressive can die trying
to climb 8000 meter peaks (though it's unlikely for the prudent.)

Doug McDonald

[Gjest]

On Jan 16, 7:05 am, Nathaniel Taylor <[email protected]> wrote:

While we're on the subject of odd rituals to claim a throne, I recently
read Philip Pullman's book, _The Tin Princess_, in which a woman (a
foreigner save by marriage) establishes her throne-right in a tiny
German principality by carrying a flag up a hill.  I thought it a silly
premise, though I rather admired the three other books in his 'Sally
Lockhart' series set in Victorian London.  Is there any even remote
parallel in real life to this, in any period or culture?  

What about the story related of the Persian conspirators lining up at
dawn to see whose horse would neigh first at the rising sun, and
Darius bribing his groom in order to win the throne that was the
contest's prize?

MA-R

[SomersetSue]

Manx pretender would probably prefer a toblerone bar.

Okay! �I give up!! �I'm an alien from another planet, living in a
cave, secluded, deep in the woods, and have no television, but what in
God's earth is a toblerone bar?
Bestest,
Emmett-

------------------
Now we see the truth.
Toblerone is a brandname for a particular candy bar.
Like Mars bar, Snickers bar, Hershey bar, etc.

I can't say I've ever eaten a Toblerone, they give me the *vague*
impression of being one of those horrid toffee-like coated bars that
fool you into thinking they'll taste good.

Will Johnson

Toblerone Bars aren't toffee. They are delicious Swiss chocolate with
little pieces of honey and almond nougat. My personal favourite is the
white chocolate one but they are all scrumptious.

Sue

[Nathaniel Taylor]

In article
<2a4a4fd0-d296-489d-85bd-811e86b17e54@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
[email protected] wrote:

On Jan 16, 7:05 am, Nathaniel Taylor <[email protected]> wrote:

While we're on the subject of odd rituals to claim a throne, I recently
read Philip Pullman's book, The Tin Princess , in which a woman (a
foreigner save by marriage) establishes her throne-right in a tiny
German principality by carrying a flag up a hill.  I thought it a silly
premise, though I rather admired the three other books in his 'Sally
Lockhart' series set in Victorian London.  Is there any even remote
parallel in real life to this, in any period or culture?  

What about the story related of the Persian conspirators lining up at
dawn to see whose horse would neigh first at the rising sun, and
Darius bribing his groom in order to win the throne that was the
contest's prize?

Great one; is this in Herodotus?

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net