Sources for the Murder of Duncan The Gracious

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Le Bateman

Sources for the Murder of Duncan The Gracious

Legg inn av Le Bateman » 16. februar 2008 kl. 21.14

Would the Scottish Chronicles Scotum Chronicum be a good secondary source? Would the Work by A. O. Anderson have a reference to contemporaries who saw what happened? One work by this author is Kings and Kingship in Early Scotland. What about the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles would it have a reference to the death of Duncan I?
Le

Gjest

Re: Sources for the Murder of Duncan The Gracious

Legg inn av Gjest » 16. februar 2008 kl. 22.44

On Feb 16, 12:14 pm, "Le Bateman" <LeBate...@att.net> wrote:
Would the Scottish Chronicles Scotum Chronicum be a good secondary source? Would the Work by A. O. Anderson have a reference to contemporaries who saw what happened? One work by this author is Kings and Kingship in Early Scotland. What about the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles would it have a reference to the death of Duncan I?
Le


If there was any, Anderson's _Early Sources of Scottish History, A.D.
500 to 1286_ probably would have it, but if he really was knifed in
his bed, I rather doubt anyone who witnessed it would tell the tale. I
am not aware of any contemporary evidence.

taf

Peter Stewart

Re: Sources for the Murder of Duncan The Gracious

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 16. februar 2008 kl. 23.23

<taf@clearwire.net> wrote in message
news:10f4835f-b64b-4dbc-806e-930bc7e9431d@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 16, 12:14 pm, "Le Bateman" <LeBate...@att.net> wrote:
Would the Scottish Chronicles Scotum Chronicum be a good
secondary source? Would the Work by A. O. Anderson have a
reference to contemporaries who saw what happened? One work
by this author is Kings and Kingship in Early Scotland. What
about the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles would it have a reference to
the death of Duncan I?
Le


If there was any, Anderson's _Early Sources of Scottish History, A.D.
500 to 1286_ probably would have it, but if he really was knifed in
his bed, I rather doubt anyone who witnessed it would tell the tale. I
am not aware of any contemporary evidence.

However Duncan was killed, whether in his sleep or in a skirmish, whether by
Macbeth or by someone else, we do not have a contemporary source for the
details, or any account by a writer with direct knowledge of it.

The chronicle of Marianus Scotus and the annals of Tighernach that have been
discussed already are the earliest sources I have seen cited, and neither of
these can provide a conclusive answer. Historians generally state that it
took place at Bothnagowan (now called Pitnaveny) near Elgin - not at
Macbeth's castle as in Shakespeare. Either way, Duncan was just as much
alive until it happened and just as dead afterwards, so the purely
genealogical implications are the same. It is not certain what was meant by
"immatura" in the Tighernach annals, where exactly the same statement is
made about various other men who were killed. It probably meant not exactly
"young" or even "in his prime" as sometimes interpreted, but rather the
obvious "not yet ready to die from natural causes".

Peter Stewart

letiTiAflufF@gmail.com

Re: Sources for the Murder of Duncan The Gracious

Legg inn av letiTiAflufF@gmail.com » 17. februar 2008 kl. 5.16

On Feb 16, 5:23 pm, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:

The chronicle of Marianus Scotus and the annals of Tighernach that have been
discussed already are the earliest sources I have seen cited, and neither of
these can provide a conclusive answer. Historians generally state that it
took place at Bothnagowan (now called Pitnaveny) near Elgin - not at
Macbeth's castle as in Shakespeare...It is not certain what was meant by
"immatura" in the Tighernach annals, where exactly the same statement is
made about various other men who were killed. It probably meant not exactly
"young" or even "in his prime" as sometimes interpreted, but rather the
obvious "not yet ready to die from natural causes".

Peter Stupor, why do you write so much like Peter Stupid?
A contemporary is a contemporary is a contemporary, and
you know it. Scholars here cite visitations of pedigrees written
as hearsay evidence by a visitor talking to a biased gent, and
scholars here accept such as contemporary, even though in
many visitations they are further away in time than The chronicle of
Marianus Scotus and the annals of Tighernach. So, they may not
be good enough for Peter Stupid, but Peter Stupor should snap
out of it. Consistency is the rule of genealogy, and you Peter
are acting stupid and in a stupor just because you write the
contemporary texts read "killed" and not killed in a castle but
in the field where the battle took place, and some text say it
was Macbeth and others say "his own men." Well, la de dah,
Peter Stupid. There you have it. History. Everyone on this
list, except your cadres which wants to protect Leaping Leo
the Leotard man's fictions, accepts these contemporary accounts.

Peter, Stupid, did you ignore the following:

ttp://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN ... 1203200942
Various Kings of Alba killing each other was in no sense noteworthy.
It
happened with some frequency, for instance, King Kenneth III was
killed in
1005 by King Malcolm II who was perhaps murdered in 1034 after
instigating
the murders of Maelbrigte , his brother Findlaech who was Macbeth`s
father,
Gillecomghain, the 1st husband of Macbeth`s future wife Gruoch and
father by
her of King Lulach who preceded King Malcolm III in 1058. In addition
Kenneth III was responsible for the death of his predecessor
Conststantine III / IV
ln 997. See various articles on wikipedia in the Encyclopaedia
Brittainica for starters.
note Constantine used to be known as " IV" rather than "III" 'modern
historians'
have decided to no longer refer to Constantine I, King of the Scots as
well as the


Why, Peter Stupid, did you not call out JWC on this because he cites a
mere
wikipedia website? Hmmmm. But then, you know, Peter Stupid, that it
IS indeed
history, recorded by so many contemporaries. You do not think it came
out of
thin air, these bald statements of "killing" of Kings and Queens by
others who
wish to presume the throne, now did you? What is your inane problem,
that
you trash SGM's Richardson, and those who support him? And you let
JWC
slide? Hmmm. Where is Wile E Coyote on this one? And
MyAsthmaReturns?
And LittleMissKnowItAll, the darling Scot who knows more Scottish
history than
you could read in three lifetimes, no, make that four!~

Peter Stupid, stop being so stupid...

persiflage, persiflage, persiflage

~Bret, scion of Charle de Magne

http://Back-stabbing Ancestral Descendants ASSoc.genealogy.medieval

James Dempster

Re: Sources for the Murder of Duncan The Gracious

Legg inn av James Dempster » 17. februar 2008 kl. 6.39

On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 22:23:30 GMT, "Peter Stewart"
<p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:


The chronicle of Marianus Scotus and the annals of Tighernach that have been
discussed already are the earliest sources I have seen cited, and neither of
these can provide a conclusive answer. Historians generally state that it
took place at Bothnagowan (now called Pitnaveny) near Elgin - not at
Macbeth's castle as in Shakespeare.

Just for a bit of amusement on this thread, I used to live on one of
the houses on the Pitgaveny estate, which is now owned by the Dunbars
(which is poetic justuce I suppose).

On the lawn in front of Pitgaveny House is a stone which was called
the Bothgouan Stone and was said to mark the spot where Macbeth killed
Duncan.

The former laird, Captain James Brander-Dunbar (the model for Buchan's
John Macnab) had the area around it excavated to see if it was of
archaeological interest. It turned out to be part of a drainage system
from the 17th or early 18th century.

James
James Dempster

You know you've had a good night
when you wake up
and someone's outlining you in chalk.

Peter Stewart

Re: Sources for the Murder of Duncan The Gracious

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 17. februar 2008 kl. 6.52

"James Dempster" <talksinsentences@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:rhhfr3dfam1flq7qrja6itgt00os2uloqb@4ax.com...
On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 22:23:30 GMT, "Peter Stewart"
p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:


The chronicle of Marianus Scotus and the annals of Tighernach that have
been
discussed already are the earliest sources I have seen cited, and neither
of
these can provide a conclusive answer. Historians generally state that it
took place at Bothnagowan (now called Pitnaveny) near Elgin - not at
Macbeth's castle as in Shakespeare.

Just for a bit of amusement on this thread, I used to live on one of
the houses on the Pitgaveny estate, which is now owned by the Dunbars
(which is poetic justuce I suppose).

On the lawn in front of Pitgaveny House is a stone which was called
the Bothgouan Stone and was said to mark the spot where Macbeth killed
Duncan.

The former laird, Captain James Brander-Dunbar (the model for Buchan's
John Macnab) had the area around it excavated to see if it was of
archaeological interest. It turned out to be part of a drainage system
from the 17th or early 18th century.

Thank you, James - so perhaps Bill Arnold's favourite warrior ancestor
Duncan "the Gracious" had the honour to die in what became (if it wasn't
already) a cesspit.

To quote the proud descendant, masquerading as ~Bret, "There you have it.
History."

Peter Stewart

letiTiAflufF@gmail.com

Re: Sources for the Murder of Duncan The Gracious

Legg inn av letiTiAflufF@gmail.com » 17. februar 2008 kl. 13.35

On Feb 17, 12:39 am, James Dempster <talksinsenten...@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 22:23:30 GMT, "Peter Stewart"

p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:
The chronicle of Marianus Scotus and the annals of Tighernach that have been
discussed already are the earliest sources I have seen cited, and neither of
these can provide a conclusive answer. Historians generally state that it
took place at Bothnagowan (now called Pitnaveny) near Elgin - not at
Macbeth's castle as in Shakespeare.

Just for a bit of amusement on this thread, I used to live on one of
the houses on the Pitgaveny estate, which is now owned by the Dunbars
(which is poetic justuce I suppose).

On the lawn in front of Pitgaveny House is a stone which was called
the Bothgouan Stone and was said to mark the spot where Macbeth killed
Duncan.

The former laird, Captain James Brander-Dunbar (the model for Buchan's
John Macnab) had the area around it excavated to see if it was of
archaeological interest. It turned out to be part of a drainage system
from the 17th or early 18th century.

James
James Dempster

You know you've had a good night
when you wake up
and someone's outlining you in chalk.

gotcha! you're outlined in chalk,
stumbled down drunk from too much drinkin',
and a piffle too much JD, aka Jack Daniels,
and where did you come up with this fiction, you sot!

persiflage, persiflage, persiflage

~Bret, scion of Charle de Magne

http://Back-stabbing Ancestral Descendants ASSoc.genealogy.medieval

letiTiAflufF@gmail.com

Re: Sources for the Murder of Duncan The Gracious

Legg inn av letiTiAflufF@gmail.com » 17. februar 2008 kl. 16.19

On Feb 17, 12:52 am, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:
"James Dempster" <talksinsenten...@gmail.com> wrote in message

Now you have, Peter Stewart shares a computer with James Dempster,
creepy trolls

This is how a lie gets created about Duncan I The Gracious King of
Scots
by trollery

http://www.trolleryfoolery.com/stuporst ... lery.shtml

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This troll habitat refuge has been paid for in part by the Anti Troll-
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trollery, trollery, trollery

persiflage, persiflage, persiflage

~Bret, scion of Charle de Magne

http://Back-stabbing Ancestral Descendants ASSoc.genealogy.medieval

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