In church records for Fredrikstad, Østfold, Norway around 1800, I find a
number of individuals with names that seem to be of German origin, or names
that are in some cases a combination of Norwegian and German. For
example-Moller, Brock, von Ebbesen, etc. These all seem to be connected with
the military with terms like artellerist, lieutnant, capitain, soldat,
seargeant, etc. I would appreciate it if some one could explain this.
Gordon Anderson
Norwegian military
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
Re: Norwegian military
I just wanted to say that they might be of Danish origin and not (only) German (atleast the ones you mentioned) and since Norway was under the Danish crown until 1814 it wouldn't be strange to find Danish officers in the army.
Re: Norwegian military
Like with most monarchies in Europe those days, a lot of the officers usually came from prominent families. These families also usually had surnames to prove that fact. In many cases these families had family ties to the european continent through marriages with other prominent families, hence the "foreign-sounding" names. But, it's also important to remember that a lot of germans have emigrated to Norway during at least the 16th and 17th century. Their offspring often assimilated into the Norwegian population and in many cases they kept their surnames. Keep in mind that my answer is based on the little I've read on the subject + what I've found on my own genealogy research.
Re: Norwegian military
The following statement fetched from: http://www.nor-miltids.com/NMT2003/2003 ... ercke.html
Slik gikk det også ellers i landet da soldatene kom tilbake fra tjenestegjøringen i Slesvig-Holstein 1758-62. Flere plasser på Østlandet ble kalt Holstein, Slesvig og liknende etter oppsitteren som ikke kunne glemme den tiden han lå i felten for Han Far i København.
Trans:
After the soldiers came back from their service at Slesvig-Holstein 1758-62 at lot of places at the south-eastern part of Norway were named Holstein, Slesvig and other similar names after the tenant farmer which couldn't forget his past from the time he had spent in the field for the King in Copenhagen.
The article is written by the Norwegian Major Bjercke who has done some research on the subject.
Slik gikk det også ellers i landet da soldatene kom tilbake fra tjenestegjøringen i Slesvig-Holstein 1758-62. Flere plasser på Østlandet ble kalt Holstein, Slesvig og liknende etter oppsitteren som ikke kunne glemme den tiden han lå i felten for Han Far i København.
Trans:
After the soldiers came back from their service at Slesvig-Holstein 1758-62 at lot of places at the south-eastern part of Norway were named Holstein, Slesvig and other similar names after the tenant farmer which couldn't forget his past from the time he had spent in the field for the King in Copenhagen.
The article is written by the Norwegian Major Bjercke who has done some research on the subject.
-
Stein R
Re: Norwegian military
"Gordon Anderson" <ganderson7@verizon.net> wrote in
news:uLaPi.5879$pl2.4050@trndny07:
Norway was part of Denmark. The Germany dutchy of Schleswig-Holstein
was also part of Denmark.
Norwegian troops was used in Denmark and Germany, Danish and German
officers were used in Norway.
From the start of the standing army in Norway from the 1600s a lot of
officers were of Danish and German ancestry.
The command language of the Norwegian army was German until 1772, and
there still are quite a few traces of German in Norwegian military
vocabulary.
Smile,
Stein
news:uLaPi.5879$pl2.4050@trndny07:
In church records for Fredrikstad, Østfold, Norway around 1800, I find
a number of individuals with names that seem to be of German origin,
or names that are in some cases a combination of Norwegian and German.
For example-Moller, Brock, von Ebbesen, etc. These all seem to be
connected with the military with terms like artellerist, lieutnant,
capitain, soldat, seargeant, etc. I would appreciate it if some one
could explain this. Gordon Anderson
Norway was part of Denmark. The Germany dutchy of Schleswig-Holstein
was also part of Denmark.
Norwegian troops was used in Denmark and Germany, Danish and German
officers were used in Norway.
From the start of the standing army in Norway from the 1600s a lot of
officers were of Danish and German ancestry.
The command language of the Norwegian army was German until 1772, and
there still are quite a few traces of German in Norwegian military
vocabulary.
Smile,
Stein
-
Jan
Re: Norwegian military
Fri, 12 Oct 2007 14:32:22 -0500, Stein R <steinjr@nospam.com>;
<Xns99C7DB197EE38steinjr@216.196.109.146>; <soc.genealogy.nordic>:
Well, not really, but for all practical purposes, one could say that.
No, but the danish king was duke of Slesvig and Holsten. (his wish to
include them into the danish kingdom in the 1860es led to a war
between Prussia and Denmark, where the danish king lost not only what
is now german Schleswig, but also a large bit of southern Jutland
(Nordslesvig))
Yes.
--
/Jan
<jan@jpharo.net>
<Xns99C7DB197EE38steinjr@216.196.109.146>; <soc.genealogy.nordic>:
Norway was part of Denmark.
Well, not really, but for all practical purposes, one could say that.
The Germany dutchy of Schleswig-Holstein
was also part of Denmark.
No, but the danish king was duke of Slesvig and Holsten. (his wish to
include them into the danish kingdom in the 1860es led to a war
between Prussia and Denmark, where the danish king lost not only what
is now german Schleswig, but also a large bit of southern Jutland
(Nordslesvig))
Norwegian troops was used in Denmark and Germany, Danish and German
officers were used in Norway.
Yes.
--
/Jan
<jan@jpharo.net>
-
Stein R
Re: Norwegian military
Jan <address@nospam.no.invalid> wrote in
news:n4r4h3lb837pav4sob7n1s23c6o6q4c86k@4ax.com:
Indeed. For all _practical_ purposes Norway was part of Denmark.
Danish was the language of the educated elites, Danish was the language
of administration, the government was in Copenhagen - Norway did did not
have its own government, its own parliament, its own flag and so on and
so forth.
Guess we got our own university at the tail end of the union with
Denmark - in 1811, three years before the union with Denmark was over,
and during the period of the Napoleonic wars where Denmark and Norway
was separated by an English blockade.
But indeed - for all practical purposes Norway was part of Denmark.
Well, if we are going to nitpick, the Danes eventually got back
northern Schleswig - following pleibicites mandated by the treaty of
Versailles at the end of WW1.
So Holstein and southern Schleswig was under Danish rule until 1864,
then German, while Northern Schleswig was Danish until 1864, then German
until 1920, then Danish again.
If we are going to nitpick even further, from 1864 until 1866 Schleswig
was Prussian, while Holstein was Austrian (since it was a Prussian-
Austrian coalition that won the Prussian-Danish war).
Then in 1866 Prussia and Austria had a war, and Schleswig and Holstein
both became Prussian.
Then in 1870/71 there was the Franco-Prussian war, which resulted in
the unification of Germany under Prussian leadership, so Schleswig-
Holstein technically became German, not Prussian.
Some maps of Schleswig and a summary in English about the history of
the place:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schleswig
But at some stage the nitpicking gets maybe a little overwhelming in
the context of answering the question "Why where there so many officers
in Norway with German sounding last names" ?
Short version is : "because Norway for all practical purposes was part
of Denmark, and Denmark had very close ties to Germany, officers having
German as their primary language were used extensively in the Danish-
Norwegian army".
I see in my old copy of "Lærebok i Norges Krigshistorie" (Text book on
Norwegian War History, from 1938) that by 1779, most of the officers
(89%) were Norwegian born, about 9% were Danish or Holstein born, and
about 2% were born in other countries.
So the period with heaviest influx of Danish/German officers to Norway
were from the early 1600s or so until the mid 1700s or so.
Smile,
Stein
news:n4r4h3lb837pav4sob7n1s23c6o6q4c86k@4ax.com:
Fri, 12 Oct 2007 14:32:22 -0500, Stein R <steinjr@nospam.com>;
Xns99C7DB197EE38steinjr@216.196.109.146>; <soc.genealogy.nordic>:
Norway was part of Denmark.
Well, not really, but for all practical purposes, one could say that.
Indeed. For all _practical_ purposes Norway was part of Denmark.
Danish was the language of the educated elites, Danish was the language
of administration, the government was in Copenhagen - Norway did did not
have its own government, its own parliament, its own flag and so on and
so forth.
Guess we got our own university at the tail end of the union with
Denmark - in 1811, three years before the union with Denmark was over,
and during the period of the Napoleonic wars where Denmark and Norway
was separated by an English blockade.
But indeed - for all practical purposes Norway was part of Denmark.
The Germany dutchy of Schleswig-Holstein
was also part of Denmark.
No, but the danish king was duke of Slesvig and Holsten. (his wish to
include them into the danish kingdom in the 1860es led to a war
between Prussia and Denmark, where the danish king lost not only what
is now german Schleswig, but also a large bit of southern Jutland
(Nordslesvig))
Well, if we are going to nitpick, the Danes eventually got back
northern Schleswig - following pleibicites mandated by the treaty of
Versailles at the end of WW1.
So Holstein and southern Schleswig was under Danish rule until 1864,
then German, while Northern Schleswig was Danish until 1864, then German
until 1920, then Danish again.
If we are going to nitpick even further, from 1864 until 1866 Schleswig
was Prussian, while Holstein was Austrian (since it was a Prussian-
Austrian coalition that won the Prussian-Danish war).
Then in 1866 Prussia and Austria had a war, and Schleswig and Holstein
both became Prussian.
Then in 1870/71 there was the Franco-Prussian war, which resulted in
the unification of Germany under Prussian leadership, so Schleswig-
Holstein technically became German, not Prussian.
Some maps of Schleswig and a summary in English about the history of
the place:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schleswig
But at some stage the nitpicking gets maybe a little overwhelming in
the context of answering the question "Why where there so many officers
in Norway with German sounding last names" ?
Short version is : "because Norway for all practical purposes was part
of Denmark, and Denmark had very close ties to Germany, officers having
German as their primary language were used extensively in the Danish-
Norwegian army".
I see in my old copy of "Lærebok i Norges Krigshistorie" (Text book on
Norwegian War History, from 1938) that by 1779, most of the officers
(89%) were Norwegian born, about 9% were Danish or Holstein born, and
about 2% were born in other countries.
So the period with heaviest influx of Danish/German officers to Norway
were from the early 1600s or so until the mid 1700s or so.
Smile,
Stein
-
catalpa
Re: Norwegian military
"Stein R" <steinjr@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:Xns99CC389F6B208steinjr@216.196.109.146...
Thank you for the detailed history. It is interesting to note that the
Danish military hero General Olaf Rye (first Schleswig War, 1848-1851) was a
Norwegian officer who refused to swear an oath of allegiance to the Swedish
King.
news:Xns99CC389F6B208steinjr@216.196.109.146...
Jan <address@nospam.no.invalid> wrote in
news:n4r4h3lb837pav4sob7n1s23c6o6q4c86k@4ax.com:
Fri, 12 Oct 2007 14:32:22 -0500, Stein R <steinjr@nospam.com>;
Xns99C7DB197EE38steinjr@216.196.109.146>; <soc.genealogy.nordic>:
Norway was part of Denmark.
Well, not really, but for all practical purposes, one could say that.
Indeed. For all _practical_ purposes Norway was part of Denmark.
Danish was the language of the educated elites, Danish was the language
of administration, the government was in Copenhagen - Norway did did not
have its own government, its own parliament, its own flag and so on and
so forth.
Guess we got our own university at the tail end of the union with
Denmark - in 1811, three years before the union with Denmark was over,
and during the period of the Napoleonic wars where Denmark and Norway
was separated by an English blockade.
But indeed - for all practical purposes Norway was part of Denmark.
The Germany dutchy of Schleswig-Holstein
was also part of Denmark.
No, but the danish king was duke of Slesvig and Holsten. (his wish to
include them into the danish kingdom in the 1860es led to a war
between Prussia and Denmark, where the danish king lost not only what
is now german Schleswig, but also a large bit of southern Jutland
(Nordslesvig))
Well, if we are going to nitpick, the Danes eventually got back
northern Schleswig - following pleibicites mandated by the treaty of
Versailles at the end of WW1.
So Holstein and southern Schleswig was under Danish rule until 1864,
then German, while Northern Schleswig was Danish until 1864, then German
until 1920, then Danish again.
If we are going to nitpick even further, from 1864 until 1866 Schleswig
was Prussian, while Holstein was Austrian (since it was a Prussian-
Austrian coalition that won the Prussian-Danish war).
Then in 1866 Prussia and Austria had a war, and Schleswig and Holstein
both became Prussian.
Then in 1870/71 there was the Franco-Prussian war, which resulted in
the unification of Germany under Prussian leadership, so Schleswig-
Holstein technically became German, not Prussian.
Some maps of Schleswig and a summary in English about the history of
the place:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schleswig
But at some stage the nitpicking gets maybe a little overwhelming in
the context of answering the question "Why where there so many officers
in Norway with German sounding last names" ?
Short version is : "because Norway for all practical purposes was part
of Denmark, and Denmark had very close ties to Germany, officers having
German as their primary language were used extensively in the Danish-
Norwegian army".
I see in my old copy of "Lærebok i Norges Krigshistorie" (Text book on
Norwegian War History, from 1938) that by 1779, most of the officers
(89%) were Norwegian born, about 9% were Danish or Holstein born, and
about 2% were born in other countries.
So the period with heaviest influx of Danish/German officers to Norway
were from the early 1600s or so until the mid 1700s or so.
Smile,
Stein
Thank you for the detailed history. It is interesting to note that the
Danish military hero General Olaf Rye (first Schleswig War, 1848-1851) was a
Norwegian officer who refused to swear an oath of allegiance to the Swedish
King.
-
Hugh Watkins
Re: Norwegian military
catalpa wrote:
one of the most important sites for learning old danish
http://www.hist.uib.no/
University of Bergen
Department of Archaeology, History, Cultural Studies and Religion
with
Otto Kalkar: Ordbog til det Ældre danske sprog (1300-1700): "bd. 1-4,
København 1881-1907. "
http://www.hist.uib.no/kalkar/
you also need before about 1860
Gotisk skrift
http://www.bt.no/lokallokal/asane/glimt ... 406331.ece
older writers used it for another 50 years
study http://www.hist.uib.no/gotisk/
see also
Virtual Reference Library http://www.rootsweb.com/~dnkcen/library/index.html
where I keep my own links
Hugh W
--
For genealogy and help with family and local history in Bristol and
district http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Brycgstow/
http://snaps4.blogspot.com/ photographs and walks
GENEALOGE http://hughw36.blogspot.com/ MAIN BLOG
"Stein R" <steinjr@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:Xns99CC389F6B208steinjr@216.196.109.146...
Jan <address@nospam.no.invalid> wrote in
news:n4r4h3lb837pav4sob7n1s23c6o6q4c86k@4ax.com:
Fri, 12 Oct 2007 14:32:22 -0500, Stein R <steinjr@nospam.com>;
Xns99C7DB197EE38steinjr@216.196.109.146>; <soc.genealogy.nordic>:
Norway was part of Denmark.
Well, not really, but for all practical purposes, one could say that.
Indeed. For all _practical_ purposes Norway was part of Denmark.
Danish was the language of the educated elites, Danish was the language
of administration, the government was in Copenhagen - Norway did did not
have its own government, its own parliament, its own flag and so on and
so forth.
Guess we got our own university at the tail end of the union with
Denmark - in 1811, three years before the union with Denmark was over,
and during the period of the Napoleonic wars where Denmark and Norway
was separated by an English blockade.
But indeed - for all practical purposes Norway was part of Denmark.
The Germany dutchy of Schleswig-Holstein
was also part of Denmark.
No, but the danish king was duke of Slesvig and Holsten. (his wish to
include them into the danish kingdom in the 1860es led to a war
between Prussia and Denmark, where the danish king lost not only what
is now german Schleswig, but also a large bit of southern Jutland
(Nordslesvig))
Well, if we are going to nitpick, the Danes eventually got back
northern Schleswig - following pleibicites mandated by the treaty of
Versailles at the end of WW1.
So Holstein and southern Schleswig was under Danish rule until 1864,
then German, while Northern Schleswig was Danish until 1864, then German
until 1920, then Danish again.
If we are going to nitpick even further, from 1864 until 1866 Schleswig
was Prussian, while Holstein was Austrian (since it was a Prussian-
Austrian coalition that won the Prussian-Danish war).
Then in 1866 Prussia and Austria had a war, and Schleswig and Holstein
both became Prussian.
Then in 1870/71 there was the Franco-Prussian war, which resulted in
the unification of Germany under Prussian leadership, so Schleswig-
Holstein technically became German, not Prussian.
Some maps of Schleswig and a summary in English about the history of
the place:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schleswig
But at some stage the nitpicking gets maybe a little overwhelming in
the context of answering the question "Why where there so many officers
in Norway with German sounding last names" ?
Short version is : "because Norway for all practical purposes was part
of Denmark, and Denmark had very close ties to Germany, officers having
German as their primary language were used extensively in the Danish-
Norwegian army".
I see in my old copy of "Lærebok i Norges Krigshistorie" (Text book on
Norwegian War History, from 1938) that by 1779, most of the officers
(89%) were Norwegian born, about 9% were Danish or Holstein born, and
about 2% were born in other countries.
So the period with heaviest influx of Danish/German officers to Norway
were from the early 1600s or so until the mid 1700s or so.
Smile,
Stein
Thank you for the detailed history. It is interesting to note that the
Danish military hero General Olaf Rye (first Schleswig War, 1848-1851) was a
Norwegian officer who refused to swear an oath of allegiance to the Swedish
King.
one of the most important sites for learning old danish
http://www.hist.uib.no/
University of Bergen
Department of Archaeology, History, Cultural Studies and Religion
with
Otto Kalkar: Ordbog til det Ældre danske sprog (1300-1700): "bd. 1-4,
København 1881-1907. "
http://www.hist.uib.no/kalkar/
you also need before about 1860
Gotisk skrift
http://www.bt.no/lokallokal/asane/glimt ... 406331.ece
older writers used it for another 50 years
study http://www.hist.uib.no/gotisk/
see also
Virtual Reference Library http://www.rootsweb.com/~dnkcen/library/index.html
where I keep my own links
Hugh W
--
For genealogy and help with family and local history in Bristol and
district http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Brycgstow/
http://snaps4.blogspot.com/ photographs and walks
GENEALOGE http://hughw36.blogspot.com/ MAIN BLOG
-
Stein R
Re: Norwegian military
"catalpa" <catalpa@entertab.org> wrote in
news:ZayUi.359$TO4.112@trnddc07:
Didn't know that. Interesting. I hadn't even heard about Olaf Rye
before (except for knowing that there is a square in Oslo known as "Olaf
Ryes plass").
Guess it must have been pretty hard for some people when Norway in
1814, following the Napoleonic wars, was transferred from being a part
of Denmark (which it had been for about 400 years) to being under the
Swedish king.
After all - Norway declared independence in 1814, adopting a
constitution and electing a Danish prince as the king of independent
Norway.
Following a brief military campaign, the Norwegian army was beaten by
the Swedish army - but the display of resistance against Swedish rule
was enough to win Norway the right to have their own constitution and
their own parliament, instead of becoming a part of Sweden.
For 91 years (from 1814 to 1905), Norway and Sweden had a common king,
the king of Sweden.
Military wise, Norwegian and Swedish soldiers did not serve together in
he same way as Norwegian and Danish soldiers had served together - in he
same military units/same ships.
During the union with Sweden military units were either Norwegian or
Swedish, not mixed. The period saw no wars and no military service
outside Norway.
With the exception of a smallish Norwegian military unit of volunteers
that was originally stationed in Stockholm - His Majesty the King's
Norwegian Guard company, which formally served as part of the Swedish
Guard's regiment.
During the end of the 1800s the Norwegians started pushing harder for
more independence - and towards the end of the 1800s the two countries
were clearly headed for divorce - with issue after issue coming up.
As part of the long breakup process, the Norwegian Guards were in 1888
moved from Stockholm, Sweden to Oslo, Norway.
The union finally was unilaterally dissolved by the Norwegian
parliament on June 7th 1905, and Norway again elected a Danish price as
the king of independent Norway.
Sweden and Norway both carried out a partial mobilization and the
situation was tense for quite a while, before it was defused by sensible
statemanship on both sides - Norway was allowed to withdraw from the
union, both countries demilitarized a zone along their common border,
and Norway had to raze or demilitarize some fortresses right on the
border.
His (Norwegian) Majesty the King's Guards is now a light infantry
battalion based in Oslo. And I think that we all are glad that the first
battle honor (Midtskogen) listed on their regimental flag came from
fighting invading Germans in 1940, not from fighting Swedes in 1905.
Smile,
Stein
news:ZayUi.359$TO4.112@trnddc07:
It is interesting to note that the Danish military hero General
Olaf Rye (first Schleswig War, 1848-1851) was a Norwegian officer
who refused to swear an oath of allegiance to the Swedish King.
Didn't know that. Interesting. I hadn't even heard about Olaf Rye
before (except for knowing that there is a square in Oslo known as "Olaf
Ryes plass").
Guess it must have been pretty hard for some people when Norway in
1814, following the Napoleonic wars, was transferred from being a part
of Denmark (which it had been for about 400 years) to being under the
Swedish king.
After all - Norway declared independence in 1814, adopting a
constitution and electing a Danish prince as the king of independent
Norway.
Following a brief military campaign, the Norwegian army was beaten by
the Swedish army - but the display of resistance against Swedish rule
was enough to win Norway the right to have their own constitution and
their own parliament, instead of becoming a part of Sweden.
For 91 years (from 1814 to 1905), Norway and Sweden had a common king,
the king of Sweden.
Military wise, Norwegian and Swedish soldiers did not serve together in
he same way as Norwegian and Danish soldiers had served together - in he
same military units/same ships.
During the union with Sweden military units were either Norwegian or
Swedish, not mixed. The period saw no wars and no military service
outside Norway.
With the exception of a smallish Norwegian military unit of volunteers
that was originally stationed in Stockholm - His Majesty the King's
Norwegian Guard company, which formally served as part of the Swedish
Guard's regiment.
During the end of the 1800s the Norwegians started pushing harder for
more independence - and towards the end of the 1800s the two countries
were clearly headed for divorce - with issue after issue coming up.
As part of the long breakup process, the Norwegian Guards were in 1888
moved from Stockholm, Sweden to Oslo, Norway.
The union finally was unilaterally dissolved by the Norwegian
parliament on June 7th 1905, and Norway again elected a Danish price as
the king of independent Norway.
Sweden and Norway both carried out a partial mobilization and the
situation was tense for quite a while, before it was defused by sensible
statemanship on both sides - Norway was allowed to withdraw from the
union, both countries demilitarized a zone along their common border,
and Norway had to raze or demilitarize some fortresses right on the
border.
His (Norwegian) Majesty the King's Guards is now a light infantry
battalion based in Oslo. And I think that we all are glad that the first
battle honor (Midtskogen) listed on their regimental flag came from
fighting invading Germans in 1940, not from fighting Swedes in 1905.
Smile,
Stein